Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Bedlam
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Bedlam » 2018-11-16 09:44pm

The Jester wrote:
2018-11-14 10:31pm
It's not so much a deal as a delay of disaster. There's still no solution for what happens when 2021 rolls around and all treaties cease. So much work would need to be done just to get them back to where they are now, it'd be the equivalent of writing a dissertation during an all-nighter. Assuming the legal frameworks allow for it, I suspect they'll asking for another extension when this is about to expire.
Kicking everything back 2 years is hardly the best strategy, but it's certainly better to have 28 months to try and sort things out rather than 4 as long as evertyhing doesn't get ignored for a year or two and then everyone panics at the last minute. The two year period originally given since things were triggered was never going to be long enough to sort things out even if we had been unified and super prepaired.

Thanas wrote:
2018-11-15 08:36am
Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.

Meanwhile, this collection is quite impressive:
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/12/ ... rite-here/
Well as a default all EU legislation has been make UK law so any protections are currently in place regardless of whether we're part of the EU or not, of course any future government can now choose to make changes as they want. Do you have any evidence that Corbin wants to remove worker protection? It certainly would seen to go against his traditional labour supporters compaired to the more blairite 'New Labour' who have been against him from the start.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Jester » 2018-11-17 02:44am

Bedlam wrote:
2018-11-16 09:44pm
Kicking everything back 2 years is hardly the best strategy, but it's certainly better to have 28 months to try and sort things out rather than 4 as long as evertyhing doesn't get ignored for a year or two and then everyone panics at the last minute. The two year period originally given since things were triggered was never going to be long enough to sort things out even if we had been unified and super prepaired.
I agree that it's the best that May could possibly achieve. That said, on average it takes around 8 years to negotiate an FTA or similar bilateral arrangement. The EU has about 36 of them in place. When there's very little experience within the UK's negotiating team (because they've been reliant on EU negotiators), it's still at least an order of magnitude difference between the time they need and the time they have.
His Divine Shadow wrote:
2018-11-16 01:10am
Yes yes, Corbyn wants out of the EU so he can scrap worker protection laws, that's exactly what he and the labour party wants when in power. It all makes sense now.
There's a valid criticism of the EU in how the Maastricht Treaty and Euro hamstring governments in how they can respond to economic crises. I get that and I suspect there are a number of Labor MPs that see it the same way. Unfortunately, that makes a good reason for not joining the EU, not for leaving.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2018-11-17 04:14pm

The Jester wrote:
2018-11-17 02:44am
His Divine Shadow wrote:
2018-11-16 01:10am
Yes yes, Corbyn wants out of the EU so he can scrap worker protection laws, that's exactly what he and the labour party wants when in power. It all makes sense now.
There's a valid criticism of the EU in how the Maastricht Treaty and Euro hamstring governments in how they can respond to economic crises. I get that and I suspect there are a number of Labor MPs that see it the same way. Unfortunately, that makes a good reason for not joining the EU, not for leaving.
I'm not really trying to make a case or for or against the EU here, I just found that take on Corbyn to be so... absurd. Like you know your brain stops working and you don't know how to respond at first, like one of those paintings that fool the eye except in word form.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-11-18 02:00pm

TURNING INTO A STICKY.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Vendetta » 2018-11-18 02:25pm

Thanas wrote:
2018-11-15 08:36am
Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.
That's Rees Mogg.

Corbyn wants to do away with TFEU 107 so he can use state money to pump up low wages and prop up small businesses better. Which there are probably ways to do within the EU as well (like UBI) but he's an old Trot and doesn't think in those terms.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by SpottedKitty » 2018-11-18 04:57pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-12 10:07pm
It's just a shame that Britain doesn't have any viable candidates for PM who are better.
At this point I think a lot of us might be willing to settle for "not as disastrous"... :roll:
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-18 05:59pm

LadyTevar wrote:
2018-11-18 02:00pm
TURNING INTO A STICKY.
Good idea! :D

Theresa May says PM change risks delaying Brexit as Dominic Raab criticises her of being 'bullied by Brussels'

Theresa May has denied ever considering quitting as Prime Minister, despite a "tough week" that saw her lose key Cabinet members including former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab.

Mrs May said "of course it has been a tough week" but suggested a change of leadership would bring in "a degree of uncertainty" and a "risk that Brexit gets delayed or frustrated."

She claimed negotiations were "always going to get even more difficult right toward the end" and said the next seven days "are going to be critical" as she travels to Brussels to talk to figures including Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission President.

The Prime Minister was speaking on Sky News' Sophy Ridge on Sunday programme after Mr Raab accused her in a newspaper article of failing to stand up to a bullying European Union, saying she should be prepared to "walk away" from negotiations.

Mrs May later revealed that she had spoken to Sir Graham Brady, who chairs the powerful backbench 1922 Committee, and as far as she was aware the required number of Tory MPs' letters to trigger a no confidence vote in her had not been reached.

Asked if the 48 letter threshold had been reached she added: "As far as I know, no, the answer to your question is no."
So she's saying that a leadership challenge would delay/frustrate both Brexit and 'introduce uncertainty'.

What she really meant is 'delay further' and 'introduce more uncertainty', because that sums up this clusterfuck in a nutshell. :lol:
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Thanas » 2018-11-19 06:19am

Vendetta wrote:
2018-11-18 02:25pm
Thanas wrote:
2018-11-15 08:36am
Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.
That's Rees Mogg.

Corbyn wants to do away with TFEU 107 so he can use state money to pump up low wages and prop up small businesses better. Which there are probably ways to do within the EU as well (like UBI) but he's an old Trot and doesn't think in those terms.
His words and deeds do not match. He can and should push for no Brexit. He refused to do so. He had a party overwhelmningly being in favor of no-Brexit, which he tried to then quench via tricks at the party conference. He has refused to campaign on no-brexit despite having an easy way to a majority. The only explanation there is that he is indeed Pro-Brexit.

If he thinks that Brexit will allow him to "pump up low-wages" and "prop up small businesses" then he is delusional. There will be no deal with the EU that will allow the UK to subsidize business. There will be no deal with the EU that will allow the UK to subsidize wages. The only way to do that is under EU programs...which he wants to quit.

So he either wants a no-deal Brexit (with all the chaos and suffering that would bring) or he is a delusional old fool or just another slimy huckster. In either case he is unfit and should be removed.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by fordlltwm » 2018-11-19 08:44pm

Thanas wrote:
2018-11-19 06:19am
Vendetta wrote:
2018-11-18 02:25pm
Thanas wrote:
2018-11-15 08:36am
Well, Corbyn has always been a snake when it comes to Brexit, happily scrapping all the workplace protections and safety laws the EU brought in favour of being able to govern away from the bad EU oversight.
That's Rees Mogg.

Corbyn wants to do away with TFEU 107 so he can use state money to pump up low wages and prop up small businesses better. Which there are probably ways to do within the EU as well (like UBI) but he's an old Trot and doesn't think in those terms.
His words and deeds do not match. He can and should push for no Brexit. He refused to do so. He had a party overwhelmningly being in favor of no-Brexit, which he tried to then quench via tricks at the party conference. He has refused to campaign on no-brexit despite having an easy way to a majority. The only explanation there is that he is indeed Pro-Brexit.

If he thinks that Brexit will allow him to "pump up low-wages" and "prop up small businesses" then he is delusional. There will be no deal with the EU that will allow the UK to subsidize business. There will be no deal with the EU that will allow the UK to subsidize wages. The only way to do that is under EU programs...which he wants to quit.

So he either wants a no-deal Brexit (with all the chaos and suffering that would bring) or he is a delusional old fool or just another slimy huckster. In either case he is unfit and should be removed.
Opinion in some circles is his refusing to put the labour party behind remain so far has allowed the brexit gang to devolve into their current back biting maddness, if there was a common cause to blame, i.e. the opposition want remain then the brexiteers would probably have remained united and used any setbacks as a stick to bash Labour. How true this is is debatable, but if so it's worked so far.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Thanas » 2018-11-19 09:32pm

If he is sacrificing his country and his electorate (for the low-income people and workers will be hardest hit) for the sake of party politics in an attempt to gain power then he is even more of a treacherous egoistical snake than I thought. I really hope that is not his strategy because it really reflects poorly on him as a person.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-20 09:01am

Corbyn's problem is that he has to work around the fact that 52% of this country, including a lot of people he absolutely cannot afford to alienate, knowingly and willingly voted for ethnic cleansing. An appalling number of people in this country voted Leaves solely because they thought it meant that all the East Europeans would be driven out of the country and that nobody else would be allowed to immigrate, and an equally appalling number have failed to change their minds even when presented with compelling evidence that there would be negative consequences for themselves.

And I wish I had a clue how to solve this problem without resorting to extremely undemocratic methods, because I'm pretty sure this is something as deeply embedded into the fabric of our society as our class system, and which will only go away if everyone who thinks its a good thing dies before they can hammer it into their children's heads.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-11-20 09:09am

Yes, I'm unfortunately not sure why Thanas thinks campaigning on an Anti-Brexit stance would have been an easy win at the General Election.

I mean the parties that did campaign on that did horribly.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-21 12:30pm

These are the same leavers that don't realise that the democracy pendulum swings both ways, so if collectively the nation changes its mind the people should be allowed to vote. Whenever I encounter leavers on social media I ask them "How'd you solve the Irish Border Problem?", in the style of Tony Stark. I've yet to get an intelligent answer.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-26 08:20pm

May challenges Corbyn to Brexit debate.
Theresa May has challenged Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to a Brexit TV debate, as US president Donald Trump strongly criticised her EU withdrawal plans.

The Prime Minister went on the offensive as she launched an intensive two-week campaign to try and get her EU exit agreement through the Commons.

As Mrs May heads for Wales and Northern Ireland on Tuesday to try and sell the deal as “good for the union”, she told The Sun: “I am going to be explaining why I think this deal is the right deal for the UK – and yes, I am ready to debate it with Jeremy Corbyn.
May's strategy in trying to sell this polished turd to the public is to get people to contact their local MPs to try and pressure them into voting in favour of the Brexit deal, based on the fact that it's the best the UK can hope to get. It's been so thoroughly rejected even fucking Donald Trump says it sucks. :banghead:
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-27 01:35am

Wow. She must be desperate if she's going out of her way to give Corbyn a platform.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-11-27 04:41am

UKIP infighting with Farage angry at the decision to appoint Tommy Robinson in an advisory role

https://news.sky.com/story/tommy-robins ... n-11560682
Nigel Farage will launch an effort to oust UKIP leader Gerard Batten following his appointment of far-right figure Tommy Robinson.

Mr Farage, who previously led UKIP in three different spells, condemned Mr Batten for dragging the party in a "shameful direction".

Since becoming leader in February, Mr Batten has seen a series of high-profile figures quit UKIP amid criticism of the party's anti-Islam messages.


He has now prompted a new row by controversially naming English Defence League founder Tommy Robinson, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, as his adviser on rape gangs and prison reform.


Mr Farage described himself as "appalled" by the appointment and revealed he will be lobbying UKIP officials in a bid to remove Mr Batten.

"I will be writing to the National Executive Committee of the party today and urging that we have a vote of no confidence in Gerard Batten as leader, that we get rid of him," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"We can have one last go at getting rid of somebody who, as leader, is dragging us in a shameful direction."

Mr Farage has previously criticised Mr Batten for marching alongside the Democratic Football Lads Alliance at an anti-Muslim rally.
Can any Brits tell me, is Farage upper class or something. Because when he wouldn't even meet Robinson (someone who is quite proud of his working class roots), that's just the first thing that popped into my mind. Also as well as Farage describing him as a thug. My gut feeling could be wrong, but its worth looking into.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-27 10:27am

mr friendly guy wrote:
2018-11-27 04:41am
UKIP infighting with Farage angry at the decision to appoint Tommy Robinson in an advisory role

https://news.sky.com/story/tommy-robins ... n-11560682
Nigel Farage will launch an effort to oust UKIP leader Gerard Batten following his appointment of far-right figure Tommy Robinson.

Mr Farage, who previously led UKIP in three different spells, condemned Mr Batten for dragging the party in a "shameful direction".

Since becoming leader in February, Mr Batten has seen a series of high-profile figures quit UKIP amid criticism of the party's anti-Islam messages.


He has now prompted a new row by controversially naming English Defence League founder Tommy Robinson, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, as his adviser on rape gangs and prison reform.


Mr Farage described himself as "appalled" by the appointment and revealed he will be lobbying UKIP officials in a bid to remove Mr Batten.

"I will be writing to the National Executive Committee of the party today and urging that we have a vote of no confidence in Gerard Batten as leader, that we get rid of him," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"We can have one last go at getting rid of somebody who, as leader, is dragging us in a shameful direction."

Mr Farage has previously criticised Mr Batten for marching alongside the Democratic Football Lads Alliance at an anti-Muslim rally.
Can any Brits tell me, is Farage upper class or something. Because when he wouldn't even meet Robinson (someone who is quite proud of his working class roots), that's just the first thing that popped into my mind. Also as well as Farage describing him as a thug. My gut feeling could be wrong, but its worth looking into.
This describes Farage in a nutshell:



The same idiot who failed to emulate Bill Pullman with his "Independence Day" speech after the referendum! :lol:
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-11-27 02:41pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2018-11-27 04:41am
Can any Brits tell me, is Farage upper class or something. Because when he wouldn't even meet Robinson (someone who is quite proud of his working class roots), that's just the first thing that popped into my mind. Also as well as Farage describing him as a thug. My gut feeling could be wrong, but its worth looking into.
Calling "Tommy Robinson" a thug and refusing to have anything to do with him is a) a statement of the bleeding obvious, and b) normal behaviour from anyone with an ounce of self-respect. It's got absolutely nothing to do with class. In Farage's case it's a continuation of the effort he went to while UKIP leader to ensure there was a firewall between the party and the far right, which his considerably less politically savvy successors have either failed to uphold or actively degraded.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2018-11-27 04:25pm

But to answer the earlier question, yes, Farage is at least upper-middle class. He's a former grammar school student who went on to work as an investment banker in the City. I think he's still relatively noveau riche and therefore not a proper aristocrat yet, however.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Bedlam » 2018-11-27 04:41pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-11-26 08:20pm
May challenges Corbyn to Brexit debate.
Theresa May has challenged Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to a Brexit TV debate, as US president Donald Trump strongly criticised her EU withdrawal plans.

The Prime Minister went on the offensive as she launched an intensive two-week campaign to try and get her EU exit agreement through the Commons.

As Mrs May heads for Wales and Northern Ireland on Tuesday to try and sell the deal as “good for the union”, she told The Sun: “I am going to be explaining why I think this deal is the right deal for the UK – and yes, I am ready to debate it with Jeremy Corbyn.
May's strategy in trying to sell this polished turd to the public is to get people to contact their local MPs to try and pressure them into voting in favour of the Brexit deal, based on the fact that it's the best the UK can hope to get. It's been so thoroughly rejected even fucking Donald Trump says it sucks. :banghead:
Well the current options are this deal, which isn't great or no deal, which is disasterous.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-11-27 06:44pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
2018-11-27 02:41pm
mr friendly guy wrote:
2018-11-27 04:41am
Can any Brits tell me, is Farage upper class or something. Because when he wouldn't even meet Robinson (someone who is quite proud of his working class roots), that's just the first thing that popped into my mind. Also as well as Farage describing him as a thug. My gut feeling could be wrong, but its worth looking into.
Calling "Tommy Robinson" a thug and refusing to have anything to do with him is a) a statement of the bleeding obvious, and b) normal behaviour from anyone with an ounce of self-respect. It's got absolutely nothing to do with class. In Farage's case it's a continuation of the effort he went to while UKIP leader to ensure there was a firewall between the party and the far right, which his considerably less politically savvy successors have either failed to uphold or actively degraded.
Thanks. That puts things in more context.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by madd0ct0r » 2018-11-27 09:15pm

Bedlam wrote:
2018-11-27 04:41pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-11-26 08:20pm
May challenges Corbyn to Brexit debate.
Theresa May has challenged Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to a Brexit TV debate, as US president Donald Trump strongly criticised her EU withdrawal plans.

The Prime Minister went on the offensive as she launched an intensive two-week campaign to try and get her EU exit agreement through the Commons.

As Mrs May heads for Wales and Northern Ireland on Tuesday to try and sell the deal as “good for the union”, she told The Sun: “I am going to be explaining why I think this deal is the right deal for the UK – and yes, I am ready to debate it with Jeremy Corbyn.
May's strategy in trying to sell this polished turd to the public is to get people to contact their local MPs to try and pressure them into voting in favour of the Brexit deal, based on the fact that it's the best the UK can hope to get. It's been so thoroughly rejected even fucking Donald Trump says it sucks. :banghead:
Well the current options are this deal, which isn't great or no deal, which is disasterous.
Articlein fincial times today predicted the following brinkmanship.
Mays option rejected as fails to get majority
Two camps also struggle for majority.
First is brexiteer "norway" option as it can be assembled very quickly but is even more powerless but steered then may's.

Large favtion in labour need this to not be developed as the gunbarrel of no deal might force a second referendum and cancellation vote.

So after cameron's brinkmanship failed to draw labour into phyrric victory two years ago, we get new round of risking no deal to try and call whole thing off.

Feel lucky my fellow punks?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-29 02:18am

Mueller documents are claiming that an ally of Nigel Farage, Ted Malloch, was asked to get information from Wikileaks for the Trump campaign, just in case anyone has forgotten that this is a global Neo-Nazi conspiracy:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... estigation
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Fuck Civility.

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Crazedwraith
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-11-29 02:18pm

Well if you can take Farage off our hands that would be great. Seems unlikely though.

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Seems they are moving ahead with this bloody stupid idea of a TV Debate about Brexit. Since no-one watching it actually has a say in it any more, other than MPs, there's no reason to do it on telly rather than the Houses OF Parliament than pr and theatre for the masses
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EnterpriseSovereign
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-11-29 05:09pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-11-29 02:18pm
Well if you can take Farage off our hands that would be great. Seems unlikely though.

-

Seems they are moving ahead with this bloody stupid idea of a TV Debate about Brexit. Since no-one watching it actually has a say in it any more, other than MPs, there's no reason to do it on telly rather than the Houses OF Parliament than pr and theatre for the masses
It's about as pointless as May touring the country with the hope it will get voters to voice their support to their local MP. Normally I would say it's futile, but stranger things have happened.

I would love to see a TV debate between Corbyn and May, even though I don't particularly like either of them.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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