Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-04-09 11:34am

Now now, that is simply slanderous to other ways of organizing a republic.

The US doesn't use the Westminster system, and is benefiting the few just fine!

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Thanas » 2018-04-09 04:48pm

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2018-04-09 01:33am
I am not debating you, you are not gonna get that amount of effort out of me. Frankly the idea of giving you that much, repulses me.
Then why are you here? Just to troll?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2018-04-10 01:20am

From my perspective I'm here to give another perspective on things, posting news links and my commentary on it is mainly what I do anymore, though I hardly bother with that even, my posting is extremely limited here and I don't have anything invested here really anymore. That and occasionally getting triggered and wound up by you. If you want to label that trolling go ahead.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Ubiquitous » 2018-04-10 05:27am

Happy news today that one of the victims of the Russian nerve agent attack has been released from hospital. What a great result for NHS Salisbury, I don't know what the survival chances are for such attacks but it looks like all three victims will end up being discharged.

Sadly the fate of the two Russians is one where they will probably no longer be able to walk the streets without some form of protection from a further attack, which is very sad. Hopefully once Putin is gone there may be some reform in Russia.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-04-17 09:55am

MPs are none too happy about not being consulted over the joint France/UK/USA strike on Syria. I can see both sides of the argument, but it's obvious Parliament has no concept of something called 'operational security'.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-04-17 03:33pm

When operational security becomes a reason not to tell the legislature you're going to start bombing a country until after things go 'boom,' you've taken operational security waaay too far.

The only time operational security should be a major strategic consideration in deciding whether or not to have political-level discussions of whether or not to fight is when your government has already resolved to launch an unprovoked sneak attack in peacetime.

Aaaand if that's so, well... your government shouldn't be launching an unprovoked sneak attack in peace time.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2018-04-17 08:51pm

This is the same government whose leader said, in public, that if human rights laws got in the way of fighting crime then she'd get rid of them. Respect for democracy and the rule of law isn't really their strong suit.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-05-04 03:24am

Local elections today. Labour and lib dem are gaining but at Ukip's expenses. They are basically wiped out. Tories have only lost two councilors over all but ownership of some councils has shifted.

Edit: thats with 99 of 150 results declared. link
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-05-04 01:48pm

Good riddance to UKIP, pity it's too late to make any real difference to brexit, though parliament at least looks like is going to have a greater say: Link.

Labour probably would have done better but for the ongoing controversy over allegations of anti-Semitism.
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Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-04 03:18pm

Fuck UKIP. May they be relegated swiftly and ignominiously to the garbage heap of history.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-05-04 03:21pm

Sadly, the only reason they're dying out is that they won already.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2018-05-04 05:17pm

And worse, their base is returning to the Tories.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-04 05:28pm

Thank David "Pig Fucker" Cameron. There's a reason why I hate him more than probably any other politician After Donald Trump, Jill Stein, and Vladimir Putin, even now that he's retired.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2018-05-05 01:53am

The windrush scandal probably helped the tories if anything.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Tribble » 2018-05-09 06:28pm

Odds of UK at least staying in a custom union have improved, at least a little bit:
Suddenly, soft Brexit can happen. Thank the Lords

The assault on the Brexit bill – inspired by the Duke of Wellington – has emboldened Tory moderates. This could be their moment

Next week the EU withdrawal bill finally emerges from the House of Lords. The bill is now a very different piece of legislation to the one launched in the Commons by David Davis last September. It was significantly amended in the Commons just before Christmas. Now the Lords have fundamentally transformed it. MPs must therefore decide what to do with the many changes that the Lords have made. It will be the most important few months of parliamentary activity in a generation, perhaps more.
It was not always clear, when the withdrawal bill was launched, that such a great moment of decision would ever be reached. If the government and Labour leadership had had their way, the soft Brexit opportunities that now face MPs this summer would probably not have existed at all, or in very constrained ways. Both parties had their own reasons for wanting the bill to go through. But a combination of doggedness, craftiness and, above all, the size of the opposition in both houses to a hard Brexit has changed the political agenda through a series of hugely important amendments, often opposed by both the government and the Labour leadership.

This week there have been some particularly striking government defeats in the Lords. The first, moved by the bishop of Leeds, would keep the UK as a participant in EU agencies such as Europol. The second, moved by the Duke of Wellington no less, removes the government’s preferred Brexit date – 29 March 2019 – from the bill, giving elbow room for a possible agreement to pause or extend the article 50 withdrawal process.
The most wide-ranging, however, was the amendment tabled by Labour’s Lord Alli to keep the UK in the European Economic Area, which was passed on Tuesday by a majority of 29, against the advice of both major parties. This would put Britain in a relationship with the EU that is comparable to that of Norway. Norway has twice voted not to join the EU, but it remains in the European single market through the EEA. Now Britain’s MPs will have to vote again, not just on the EEA, but on almost all the pivotal issues that would make the difference between a hard Brexit and a soft one.
When the bill went through the Commons last autumn, relatively few of these issues raised large tussles. The one big defeat for Theresa May in the Commons was Dominic Grieve’s amendment that, in effect, requires parliament to vote to approve the final withdrawal agreement with the EU, on which work still continues. This remains a crunch issue, but it is now joined by the 13 or so Lords amendments on a wide range of other issues. These include continued membership of the customs union in some form, the adoption of the EU charter of fundamental rights into domestic UK law, and Chris Patten’s amendment ensuring that the UK and Ireland must agree any new Irish border rules before they come into force.

For parliament these are all very big questions, on which there could be Commons majorities if MPs were not forced to follow party lines. Coalitions similar to the one that passed the Grieve amendment could be assembled again. Don’t forget, also, that the withdrawal bill is not the only Brexit-related legislation currently under consideration in parliament (the trade bill is particularly significant). And there is the hugely significant possibility that any new bill on the withdrawal terms could be defeated or amended (including by a demand for a fresh referendum).
May’s Brexit strategy is to hold the Tory party together by withdrawing entirely from the EU, while making serious practical compromises to maintain as “frictionless” a relationship as possible with the EU, its institutions, agencies and member states – Ireland above all. Government defeats on crucial questions such as the single market, the customs union or the Irish border would overturn the entire strategy. Yet this is becoming more likely now. May’s strategy worked for her first months as prime minister. But the “lost election” of 2017 and the fundamental differences among Conservative MPs and ministers over Brexit issues that cannot be permanently postponed mean its lifetime is now almost spent. Labour’s caution on Brexit shows little sign of changing, but there are enormous temptations for Jeremy Corbyn to overcome his anti-EU instincts in order to humiliate the government on at least some of the Lords amendments.

This explains why, even as she runs out of road on Brexit, May still acts as if she is hoping that something unexpected will turn up. There is now talk at Westminster of the Brexit bill votes being delayed to the autumn, partly to avoid embarrassing Commons defeats affecting the June EU summit at which the future relationship will be discussed – and partly because Conservative rebels on both sides of the argument might be more disciplined if the talks appear to be nearing a successful conclusion.
It is hard to imagine that the Tory party’s Commons discipline is about to collapse on every single issue that the Lords have put on the table. Nevertheless, the Tory soft Brexiters seem a bit bolder now. That is partly because their numbers are gently creeping up – and also because, in the end, these moderate Tories feel they have to fight harder now if they are to prevent their party collapsing even further to the Ukip right.
That is why every disloyal provocation by Boris Johnson or other ministers – such as the foreign secretary’s “crazy” jibe this week – acts as a recruiting sergeant for the soft Brexiters. The coming weeks and months may be their moment. A hung parliament gives them the means. The slide to the right gives them the motive. And now the Lords have given them their opportunity. It will be a hot political summer.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -moderates

Interesting that it's the House of Lords of all things that is pushing for a rethink. I doubt the EEA option will prevail, but this might at least cause something to happen. I wonder what Corbyn will do?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-10 06:34am

If Corbyn sides with the EEA camp, expect BRUSSELS COMMIE TRAITOR shit to flood the media like a deluge.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LaCroix » 2018-05-10 01:07pm

Again, this "soft" Brexit only works if the EU agrees to that. No matter how often the UK changes their votes and plans on how they like the result to look like, the EU will have demands, as well.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Tribble » 2018-05-10 03:43pm

LaCroix wrote:
2018-05-10 01:07pm
Again, this "soft" Brexit only works if the EU agrees to that. No matter how often the UK changes their votes and plans on how they like the result to look like, the EU will have demands, as well.
Perhaps, though I can't think of any real reason why the EU would say no to the UK remaining in the EEA in the unlikely event that's where the vote swings. Unless it's out of spite, of course.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-10 03:56pm

Agree with Tribble. The EU would prefer Britain in the EEA, it's keeping them at least as a contributor to budgets and customs union. If they want to act, now is the time. Put pressure on the UK to make sure the choice is between staying in the EEA and catastrophe, and see how the UK government responds.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LaCroix » 2018-05-11 04:57am

Of yourse they will agree to staying in the EEA, but there are conditions to that - especially the four freedoms. Which means that one of the core pillars of their policy - immigration control would go right out of the window. I do not think they will vote for that. ANd it would mean that a lot of EU law will aply, as well. Another big part their campain promised to get rid of.

They would end up in a state that they are bound to EU law, open to unlimited immigration from EU member states, but with pretty much no vote on any of this.

(Also, Norway has already stated they do have problems with that approach, for it could cost them some of their current advantages if Britain rejoined via EFTA/EEA using the "Norwegian model". And Norway has a vote on EEA membership.)
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-05-11 08:15am

Tribble wrote:
2018-05-09 06:28pm
Interesting that it's the House of Lords of all things that is pushing for a rethink.
There was a time when it was popular to just casually dismiss the argument "unelected bodies can afford to make more sensible policy decisions because they're not constantly worried about the whims of an election cycle."

I have come to believe that this argument was dismissed too lightly. You need an elected government that has primacy, for accountability's sake. But there is a lot to be said for having some group or institution that is just not involved in short-term political drama, which has influence over policy, and which cannot casually be sidelined by a bunch of know-nothings in elected office on the grounds that the country is "tired of experts."
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-11 07:05pm

LaCroix wrote:
2018-05-11 04:57am
Of yourse they will agree to staying in the EEA, but there are conditions to that - especially the four freedoms. Which means that one of the core pillars of their policy - immigration control would go right out of the window. I do not think they will vote for that. ANd it would mean that a lot of EU law will aply, as well. Another big part their campain promised to get rid of.

They would end up in a state that they are bound to EU law, open to unlimited immigration from EU member states, but with pretty much no vote on any of this.
I'd fucking love it if that happened. It would be the best possible outcome short of full membership, I expect, and it would be fitting comeuppance to the Brexit assholes.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-12 04:05am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-05-11 07:05pm
I'd fucking love it if that happened. It would be the best possible outcome short of full membership, I expect, and it would be fitting comeuppance to the Brexit assholes.
It would also show that there are no consequences to badly botched democratic choice.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Vendetta » 2018-05-12 04:14am

K. A. Pital wrote:
2018-05-12 04:05am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-05-11 07:05pm
I'd fucking love it if that happened. It would be the best possible outcome short of full membership, I expect, and it would be fitting comeuppance to the Brexit assholes.
It would also show that there are no consequences to badly botched democratic choice.
Oh there would be consequences. Britain would have to follow all the same rules as it did whilst inside the EU (technically able to arrange its own trade deals but would have to apply all relevant EU standards to them, so no cheap poison from the US' agricultural industry for instance) but wouldn't get to vote on what those rules were.

Which is exactly the situation the Thatcher government was trying to avoid when they entered the EU in the first place.

The Brexiteers would have delivered us to their own absolute worst case nightmare scenario.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-05-12 04:20am

Don't you think that this would cause further problems down the line? Being in the EU without even having a voice about how it's run is certain to inflame tensions to an entirely different degree.

But then again, I've had no problems with Scotland breaking off, so... *grabs popcorn*
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