Brexit and General UK politics thread

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ray245
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by ray245 » 2019-09-04 08:33am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-09-04 08:00am
As I expected.

Prorogation is a standard tool to close a session and open a new one. Customary, it never lasted more than a week or two, but there are cases of three weeks. It has been used, lately, to shut down parliament (longer) before an election. And historically, it has been used to prevent a vote on something (in the 50's), or even further back, to shut down parliament for multiple years. (wich technically, today still sets the absolute legal minimum of parliament sitting at least every 3 years, unless I am not informed of more current legislation)

It is no longer wielded by the monarch, but the PM, but yet, parliament has never codified in law when and to what extent the PM is legally allowed to ask for a prorogation. No set of circumstances, no rules for duration, nothing. The ruling party has always wanted to keep that tool for emergencies. In a way, it's like the filibuster in US politics - a tool nobody likes wielded against himself, but nobody wants to abolish because they might need it one day, themselves.

The judge is pretty much saying it: There are no laws against this - create some new ones so he can't do it again, but for now, it's legal.

IT'S pretty much
Yup. I do hope anyone who is commenting on the issue of Brexit, especially as a progressive to try and understand the importance of heeding to established laws and learn about how the political system of the UK works.

The power of the Queen in the UK is essentially the same as the power of the Governor-General of Canada.
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Bedlam
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Bedlam » 2019-09-04 01:54pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-09-04 06:07am
AniThyng wrote:
2019-09-04 05:40am
If enough people supported it, a pro Brexit government is possible even with a proportional represention system - I don't see why it couldn't, given the referendum, however tight, did pass, so a Brexit party could still take 50%+1 parliamentary seats and try to push it through, unless again this is something that needs 2/3rds parliamentary majority.

That being said, this kind of deadlock is a weakness of parliamentary systems, but I'm still not seeing any alternative democratic systems that won't suffer from the same problem if the issue is divisive enough
Democracy falters when the voters themselves are deeply divided. One way of resolving this is a new referendum that is based on a preferential voting system like in Australia, where people are allowed to ranked what kind of Brexit do they actually want.

So No-deal is an option, but it can be complemented by a variety of "soft-Brexit" options ( like staying in the EEA) and a option for remain. You then tally it up and seeing how many people truly want a no-deal Brexit at all cost, and balanced against the people who might be happy with a "soft-Brexit".

Right now, the MPs know that a majority of their constituencies want Brexit to happen. But what they do not know is what kind of Brexit they want. If the voters who voted for Brexit wants to keep EU immigrants out at all cost, then there is nothing the MPs can do if they want to be elected. Immigration is a massive issue of concern for many people who voted for Brexit. They simply cannot find themselves to be accepting of freedom of movement because it is seen as a threat to their way of life.
Referendums also don't work when the end result requires an agreement with a third party as in this case.

You can put as many options on the ballot paper as you want and people can vote for them, but if the EU isn't willing to give you that option when you ask for it it doesn't matter. It also tells the other side of the debate what you want so they then have an advantage when you try to sort out a deal.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by ray245 » 2019-09-04 01:58pm

It requires people to actually understand what the EU is actually like and how they operate. But the British public is utterly uninformed about what the EU is aside from seeing them as a bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Elfdart » 2019-09-04 02:43pm

The thing that has amazed me throughout this farce is the amount of patience the EU (especially the Germans) have shown the UK.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-04 02:47pm

That I agree with. They've been remarkably patient, certainly more so than I would have been.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Vendetta » 2019-09-06 01:15pm

It's not so terribly amazing.

Europe does want to avoid a no deal exit because it would cause direct economic damage to them and also they don't want a failed state and humanitarian crisis 25 miles off their west coast.

So as long as Europe believes that sanity will resume in some realistic amount of time it's to their benefit to delay because either the worst case is averted or they have longer to prepare for it.

The hard-right-hard-brexit brigade has consistently misread this as something they can use for leverage, but it is a brittle and poorly placed lever because "I'll cover you in brains when I shoot myself in the head" isn't a compelling threat.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LadyTevar » 2019-09-07 10:08pm

GODDAMIT!!!!

OK. FROM NOW ON, WHENEVER SOMEONE REPORTS TRR FOR SOMETHING, I'M JUST LOCKING THE FUCKING THREAD WITHOUT BOTHERING TO READ THE REPORT FURTHER.
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