Brexit and General UK politics thread

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Tribble » 2019-07-10 02:32pm

Now there’s talk of Johnson proroguing parliament to kill off all discussion and force a hard brexit through. If he becomes PM and tries that tactic it’d be interesting to see what the Queens response would be.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-10 07:13pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-07-10 02:32pm
Now there’s talk of Johnson proroguing parliament to kill off all discussion and force a hard brexit through. If he becomes PM and tries that tactic it’d be interesting to see what the Queens response would be.
Suck it up and let it happen, because any direct intervention by the Queen against Parliament on a major issue would cause a constitutional crisis and possibly a civil war?
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LaCroix » 2019-07-11 07:04am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-10 07:13pm
Suck it up and let it happen, because any direct intervention by the Queen against Parliament on a major issue would cause a constitutional crisis and possibly a civil war?
Probably the other way round - because what he will have to ask of her is to shut down parliament for weeks or months. Doing what he wants would be interfering in parliamentary proceedings at the wish of a single person who can't get the vote he wants. So it would be her act of shutting down the parliament which would lead to a no-deal brexit (something the Parliament has repeatedly voted against).

A very easy decision for her. Especially since she (like most people who met him) doesn't like BJ, and is rather pro-remain.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-11 07:06am

LaCroix wrote:
2019-07-11 07:04am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-10 07:13pm
Suck it up and let it happen, because any direct intervention by the Queen against Parliament on a major issue would cause a constitutional crisis and possibly a civil war?
Probably the other way round - because what he will have to ask of her is to shut down parliament for weeks or months. Doing what he wants would be interfering in parliamentary proceedings at the wish of a single person who can't get the vote he wants. So it would be her act of shutting down the parliament which would lead to a no-deal brexit (something the Parliament has repeatedly voted against).

A very easy decision for her. Especially since she (like most people who met him) doesn't like BJ, and is rather pro-remain.
Ah, fair enough then. Hope she tells Boris to go fuck himself (in a suitably classy manner, of course :wink: ).
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-07-11 12:26pm

It's worth remembering that even if Boris wins the Tory leadership contest, Her Majesty doesn't have to invite him to form a government. I mean, sure, it's customary but it isn't totally ironclad - she can ask anyone who can feasibly lead the Commons, and since the Tories don't have an actual majority, it becomes a more interesting question than when Theresa May took over (as she did have a majority).
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Lost Soal » 2019-07-11 01:26pm

It gets more interesting now that NI has been forced to accept marriage equality and abortion rights, you've got to wonder how long it will be before the DUP screws the Tories over in return.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Captain Seafort » 2019-07-11 04:49pm

LaCroix wrote:
2019-07-11 07:04am
Probably the other way round - because what he will have to ask of her is to shut down parliament for weeks or months. Doing what he wants would be interfering in parliamentary proceedings at the wish of a single person who can't get the vote he wants.
Doing what he wanted would be following the advice of her ministers, which has a far stronger precedent than trivia such as parliamentary proceedings. Ergo, that's exactly what would happen.
A very easy decision for her. Especially since she (like most people who met him) doesn't like BJ, and is rather pro-remain.
Evidence for this? If there is any I'd be astonished, given that HM is exceptionally good at remaining apolitical and keeping her private views on individuals and debates private.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2019-07-23 01:30pm

Well, they picked Boris Johnson.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2019-07-23 01:31pm

Well if he gets his way, the economy will be fucked.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by SpottedKitty » 2019-07-23 05:13pm

Zaune wrote:
2019-07-23 01:30pm
Well, they picked Boris Johnson.
Out of what, a turnip cart? :roll:

Countdown to a vote of no confidence in 3... 2... :banghead:
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-23 06:07pm

He's pledged to get the UK out of the EU by Oct. 31st. (how appropriate that they chose Halloween), with or without a deal. Britain's capacity for committing national suicide never ceases to amaze me.

But yeah, his majority is not strong, and there's growing resistance even within the Cons to a no-deal Brexit. Odds are he'll have no more luck than May getting something everyone will agree to, there will be a no confidence vote when he tries a no-deal Brexit, and then an election. Then I guess we see if Corbyn can pull it off.

I'm just hoping against hope that he goes down before he has a chance to blunder the UK into a war with Iran.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by SpottedKitty » 2019-07-23 06:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-23 06:07pm
But yeah, his majority is not strong, and there's growing resistance even within the Cons to a no-deal Brexit. Odds are he'll have no more luck than May getting something everyone will agree to, there will be a no confidence vote when he tries a no-deal Brexit, and then an election. Then I guess we see if Corbyn can pull it off.
That majority won't last if he carries on making noises about poking the Irish border arrangements with a pointy stick — and there's also something I heard in today's news about MPs making legal moves to prevent a no-deal Brexit. I don't think even Houdini could get out of this one.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-23 06:31pm

Well, I guess its a race to see if the Conservative Party can complete its grand act of self-destruction before it completes its grand act of national destruction.

Good luck.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2019-07-23 07:22pm

All I can say is, I'm glad this won't be my problem for very long.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-07-23 09:08pm

Zaune wrote:
2019-07-23 07:22pm
All I can say is, I'm glad this won't be my problem for very long.
If real life goes with the timeline I've set in a setting I'm building, then Britain isn't going to have a respite for decades to come.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2019-07-23 09:14pm

GrosseAdmiralFox wrote:
2019-07-23 09:08pm
If real life goes with the timeline I've set in a setting I'm building, then Britain isn't going to have a respite for decades to come.
I know. But the medication without which I'll be dead in a week is manufactured in France.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-07-23 09:34pm

Zaune wrote:
2019-07-23 09:14pm
I know. But the medication without which I'll be dead in a week is manufactured in France.
Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised that England would have the monarchy restored after Parliament kept fucking up like this (and worse). At this point, I wouldn't be surprised that for all the BS that England has thrown its way, the EU will simply push for a 'Versailles Brexit'... which would be bad for everyone involved but due to how political systems work is going to happen anyway.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by LaCroix » 2019-07-24 03:30am

Actually, I can't see anything but that.

Parliament is to scared to call off Brexit, for party policy reasons in the general election.
Nor do they want a No Deal Brexit. They do make moves to make prorogation harder by allowing them to reconvene every 2 weeks on a fixed trigger, but that can be circumvented (by things like reinstating the Northern Irish parliament, which throws said amendment out along with the law it was tacked on to). Also, what will they do if they can't get a deal - call off Brexit? We already established that they lack the will to do so. They will huff and puff, and call a general election but will be happy that thing is done and over with. The only other thing they could do is ask for yet another extension, which kicks the can down the road, does more damage to the economy (uncertainity factor makes investment go *poof*), and gives them a few more months to do nothing, rinse and repeat. Pretty sure the EU is tired of that song and dance, so good luck getting that option done.

So there is either a miraculous deal popping up around Helloween (tldr; still hoping the EU will blink), or they just run out the clock and then can say "The EU threw us out without an extension to find a deal". Of course, an extension they didn't ask for and a deal they don't want to make. But plausibl deniability and all that.

And Parliament will do the responsible thing and go on recess for the next 6 weeks, leaving only 8 weeks to square the circle.

Unless the Queen steps in and just dismisses parliament and whatnot (let's say very unlikely but seeing the state the UK is in, who knows - after all, they now have Boris Johnson, PM - just equally unlikely to anyone you'd have asked a year ago), a No Deal Brexit is the most likely outcome.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-25 03:46am

If the Queen intervened like that, I suspect they'd just be trading Brexit for a second English Civil War.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-07-25 04:08am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-25 03:46am
If the Queen intervened like that, I suspect they'd just be trading Brexit for a second English Civil War.
If Parliament keeps going the way they're going, they're screwed either way (so it would become a question of 'do I want to live and be in jail for a time or get strung up on Trafalgar later?')... especially if reality keeps yoinking my future timeline.

... and it doesn't help that we've got reports that there is a not-insignificant number of Pro-Brexit politicians that are actually wanting to have a Hard Brexit happen because they're going to make a killing off of it.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-25 04:11am

Yeah, sociopaths are like that.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-07-25 04:15am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-25 04:11am
Yeah, sociopaths are like that.
I think you've got the wrong term here, I believe what we're seeing is psychopaths, not sociopaths. If I remember correctly, psychopaths can blend into society, sociopaths can't.

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-25 04:25am

Its a bit more complicated than that:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/fea ... fference#2
You may have heard people call someone else a “psychopath” or a “sociopath.” But what do those words really mean?

You won’t find the definitions in mental health’s official handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths. They use a different term instead: antisocial personality disorder.

Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.

Do They Have a Conscience?

A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.

Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.

They’re Not Always Violent

In movies and TV shows, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people. In real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not. Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want.

“At worst, they’re cold, calculating killers,” Kipnis says. Others, he says, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.

If you recognize some of these traits in a family member or coworker, you may be tempted to think you’re living or working with a psychopath or sociopath. But just because a person is mean or selfish, it doesn’t necessarily mean he has a disorder.

'Cold-Hearted Psychopath, Hot-Headed Sociopath'

It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care.

“They’re skilled actors whose sole mission is to manipulate people for personal gain,” Tompkins says.

Sociopaths are less able to play along. They make it plain that they’re not interested in anyone but themselves. They often blame others and have excuses for their behavior.

Some experts see sociopaths as “hot-headed.” They act without thinking how others will be affected.

Psychopaths are more “cold-hearted” and calculating. They carefully plot their moves, and use aggression in a planned-out way to get what they want. If they’re after more money or status in the office, for example, they’ll make a plan to take out any barriers that stand in the way, even if it’s another person’s job or reputation.

Brain Differences

Recent research suggests a psychopath’s brain is not like other people’s. It may have physical differences that make it hard for the person to identify with someone else’s distress.

The differences can even change basic body functions. For example, when most people see blood or violence in a movie, their hearts beat faster, their breathing quickens, and their palms get sweaty.

A psychopath has the opposite reaction. He gets calmer. Kipnis says that quality helps psychopaths be fearless and engage in risky behavior.

“They don’t fear the consequences of their actions,” he says.
Quick summary is that both tend to be selfish and lack empathy or ability to feel or understand others' feelings, but psychopaths tend to be cooler and better at fooling people, and lack any conscience whatsoever, while sociopaths tend to be more reckless, less able to conceal their disorder, and may possess some understanding of right and wrong, or ability to feel remorse.
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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox » 2019-07-25 05:08am

... given that I've been raised with those words... that's a bit of a shock...

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Re: Brexit and General UK politics thread

Post by Zaune » 2019-07-25 06:51am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-07-25 03:46am
If the Queen intervened like that, I suspect they'd just be trading Brexit for a second English Civil War.
We'll get one of those anyway at the rate we're going. All those worst-case scenarios the Civil Service worked out, the ones about empty supermarket shelves and supply-chains getting screwed up because shipments were held up in port? Those were all worked out on the assumption that the government would bother to do some actual damage control. I don't trust BoJo to do more than order the Army to suppress the riots and just let the "surplus population" die off.
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