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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Maybe, but in Corbyn's defense, its my understanding that he was dealing with a lot of internal divisions in his own party, and still managed to considerably improve on Labour's performance in other recent elections. So its hard to really see that as a failure on his part.

I'm not a British politics expert either, but my sense is that the whole mess is just incredibly dysfunctional (and I'm speaking as an American, so...)
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Zaune »

"Internal divisions" was putting it mildly; there was a serious prospect of the party splitting until the election. And Corbyn was also dealing with a truly ridiculous level of press hostility even by the standards of the redtops.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Minischoles »

FireNexus wrote:Corbin hasn't really so much had recent success as the Torres have had recent extreme failures and he wins by default when the Tories implode. Frankly, I'd call his inability to gain a majority after the clusterfuck of the snap campaign indicative of just how stupidly weak he is, but I don't know enough about British politics to have a good sense of whether that is a fair characterization.
Corbyn and Labour came into the snap election 30-40 points down in every single poll, every prediction had them not only losing but essentially being wiped out as a political party. Corbyn was presiding over a party that was at war with him, with the most hostile press imaginable (multiple papers have outright called him a terrorist) and with a significant disadvantage in funding (the Tories had 12million to Labours 3)

He came out of the election having humiliated May and the Tories, defying every expectation and unifying the party behind him as the doubters have no choice but to fall into line. He's defied all of his critics and naysayers and 2000 or so votes in some marginal seats and he'd be PM right now. Without Ruth Davidson doing so well in Scotland, the Tories would find themselves on 300 seats and unable to form a government at all.

His critics like to paint the election purely as May messing up, and there is no doubt that she ran one of the most godawful campaigns in recent history, with a series of spectacular mis-steps and fuck ups.

But Corbyn and his team also ran an incredibly effective campaign; Momentum especially are going to be a huge asset going forward, and his mobilisation of the young vote alone almost guarantee future success.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Darth Tanner »

and his mobilisation of the young vote alone almost guarantee future success.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, he may have got 1-2 million votes from new voters but he still lost, he has to keep them interested enough to vote for him at the next election which is definitely not a given, they can quite easily slip back into apathy.
the Tories would find themselves on 300 seats and unable to form a government at all.
Just what the country needs.... another election round! The best bet for Corbyn right now is the internal Tory jockeying for positon kills May off and leaves some total prat in charge so when the shit hits the wall Labour are left as last man standing. Corbyn might have a harder time in future as his manifesto pledges will be put under more scrutiny now there is the chance he might actually win, a lot of them were pathetically vague on any detail.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Hillary »

Minischoles wrote:
Corbyn and Labour came into the snap election 30-40 points down in every single poll, every prediction had them not only losing but essentially being wiped out as a political party.
The result was far better than expected, but this is simply not true. The worst poll had Labour down by 25% - they were never 30-40 points behind and even the worst prediction had them with 200+ seats. They were never going to be "wiped out".

It's all well and good saying "look how Corbyn turned it around" but that ignores the fact that he was also at the wheel when Labour got so far behind. This election has restored some credibility to Corbyn and fucked May royally and for that I am very glad, but let's not get carried away here. Labour lost when they were up against the worst UK election campaign in modern history. Had May run an even vaguely competent strategy she'd certainly have won with an overall majority and probably increased it.

Corbyn could and should have used his relative success to bring the party back together and, in the process, provided much needed strength to his front bench. Instead, he's chosen to keep the party split and rely on far less capable people to man his shadow cabinet posts.

I think anointing Corbyn as PM-in-waiting is incredible premature.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Maybe, but on the other hand, its hard for me to fault Corbyn for not surrounding himself with people who a few weeks ago were gleefully stabbing him in the back. Just saying.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

This is very much a real-life case of we win because you didn't, with Labour being the victors. The only consolation May has is that the SNP were weakened as much as the Tories, and put the DUP in a kingmaker situation.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Thanas »

So how did Maybots latest offer go over with parliament?

Taking the country back from that damned prosperity.
Theresa May has been accused of offering EU workers in the UK “second-class citizenship” in a stark warning from the European parliament that it would reject her “damp squib” opening offer on the Brexit negotiations.

The prime minister, who will on Monday attempt to relaunch her struggling tenure in Downing Street, was told that the EU legislature would “reserve its right to reject any agreement that treats EU citizens less favourably than they are at present”.

Writing in the Guardian, the parliament’s Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt and eight other leading MEPs say the UK’s opening offer on citizens’ rights falls short of both the EU proposal and Vote Leave’s campaign pledges.

“The European Union has a common mission to extend, enhance and expand rights, not to reduce them,” they wrote. “We will never endorse the retroactive removal of acquired rights. The European parliament will reserve its right to reject any agreement that treats EU citizens, regardless of their nationality, less favourably than they are at present.”

Earlier this month, May offered those who arrive lawfully before Brexit the chance to build up the same rights to work, healthcare and benefits as UK citizens.

But her proposal falls far short of the EU’s demand for its citizens living in the UK to maintain all EU rights in perpetuity, and the UK is not prepared to concede to the EU’s demand to allow the European court of justice to be the guarantor of those rights.

In their joint intervention, the group of MEPs threatens to torpedo a Brexit deal if a better offer is not presented, which could be done if a simple majority in the European parliament votes against the final terms of an exit deal. The eight authors of the article includes leaders of all the parliament’s pro-EU political groups, accounting for 77% of MEPs.

The MEPs reinforce the claim, highlighting that EU citizens would lose their right to vote in local elections, while future family members would be subject to a minimum income test to move to the UK, as well as the lack of clarity over the status of “post-Brexit babies”.

“The British proposal carries a real risk of creating a second class of citizenship,” they said. “It is even in contradiction with the Vote Leave manifesto, which promised it would treat EU citizens ‘no less favourably than at present’.”

During the referendum campaign, Boris Johnson, one of the leaders of Vote Leave and now foreign secretary, said categorically that EU citizens already in the UK would be allowed to stay. Michael Gove, another key figure in Vote Leave and now environment secretary, was of the same view, saying: “EU citizens already lawfully resident in the United Kingdom must retain their right of residence.”

The MEPs also accused the British of vying to be “the new champion of red tape”, as each family member, including children, would have to make a separate application for settled status.


Both the British and the EU have stressed that settling citizens’ rights is one of their top priorities for the Brexit negotiations, but the task is fraught with complexity.

But in the one-year-long buildup to the start of negotiations, EU officials expressed frustration the British side did not grasp the technical challenge.

The EU will insist on detailed guarantees on the rights of EU citizens in the UK to meet their aim of allowing people to live as if Brexit had never happened.

One of the biggest issues is the European court of justice. The EU side wants to ensure the Luxembourg court has a central role in resolving disputes over citizens’ rights, while May has made ending ECJ jurisdiction a strong red line.

The MEPs argue that British courts will not be enough, because they “apply the laws adopted by British politicians, who are currently unable to give sufficient guarantees for the years to come, let alone for a lifetime”.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Tribble »

The far-right's goal is to deport as many "undesirables" as possible, so it doesn't come as much of a surprise that they are ignoring their own pledges. It was kinda obvious that they were lying when they said that if the UK left EU citizens already living in the UK would be allowed to stay.

At this point, the EU should refuse any deal short of EEA membership. Perhaps they should go even further than that - refuse to deal with the UK whatsoever until it leaves, then refuse any agreement short of rejoining the EU except this time with no special treatment; no Thatcher rebate, the UK must adopt the Euro, and it must fully commit to further integration. Anything less? Tough luck, WTO rules.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Thanas »

So now that Britain has wasted over half a year with delusional bullshit, they might be asking for a transitional period.

But not because they wasted all that time, no. Because other nations like France need more time.

]I kid you not.
David Davis: transitional period may be needed during Brexit
Brexit secretary says ‘practicalities’ may force requirement as near neighbours such as France may not be suitably prepared


David Davis has conceded that there may have to be some transitional period in the UK’s departure from the EU. However, the Brexit secretary said this would be for the sake of France, Belgium and the Netherlands rather than the UK.

Rejecting claims the UK has softened its hard Brexit position, he told a House of Lords select committee on Tuesday that Britain’s nearest neighbours were not in the same state of preparedness for customs checks and border controls.

Such “practicalities” would force a need for a transition period, rather than a change of government Brexit strategy, he said.

“I believe we can get a free trade negotiation concluded and a customs union agreement concluded in the [Brexit negotiating] period; what will be much more difficult however is to get all the practical implementations that go with it,” he told peers, adding that this was a problem “not so much for us” but for others.

“It will be quite tough to get customs in the right place in two years but it’s doable with a bit of money, but to get the French customs in the same place in two years or the Belgian or the Dutch customs I think will be a different issue, that’s why a transition period [is needed],” Davis said.

His comments echo those from the shipping industry three months ago which raised concerns that other countries did not grasp the scale of the challenge of a hard Brexit.

Evidence also points to a lack of preparedness in the UK, with HMRC admitting earlier this year it was no longer sure it could deliver a new customs declaration system on time. It told the Treasury select committee that the delivery of the new system was in doubt as it faced a fivefold increase in customs checks in a hard Brexit scenario.

Davis also contested claims that he and the chancellor, Philip Hammond, were pushing different Brexit strategies. He said they spoke about the plans weekly and claimed there was not “a cigarette paper” between their positions.

Asked about the vexed question of the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, he also shifted focus. Theresa May has said she wants this to be “frictionless” and “seamless” but so far nobody has arrived at a solution which would allow Ireland to remain within the single market and the customs union and Northern Ireland to be outside it.

Davis said the government was looking at trusted trader schemes, automatic number plate recognition and pre-tagged containers but this work was being delayed by local politics. “That’s one area where technical work has started. That’s slightly been stymied by change of government in Ireland,” he said.

He said the UK was “not near resolution” on how to achieve an invisible border “partly because we’ve got no Northern Ireland executive to deal with, partly because of the change in government in the south”, before observing that no deal on Ireland could be done until a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU was complete.

Davis skimmed over most issues he was pressed on, blundering on some including a claim that only British citizens could vote in general elections.

He was also quizzed about the number of women on the Brexit negotiating committee, with one peer calling the photograph showing just one woman on the team as “a disgrace”.

Davis said he did not know how many women were on the team and he would write to the committee.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Vendetta »

The thing you have to understand about Brexit is that everything bad that happens because of it is directly the fault of people who didn't want to do it and of Europe for having two brain cells to rub together so they can spot how improbable and silly all Britain's demands are, that they have to make because the British public did not have two brain cells to rub together and so that's why they voted for Brexit.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Hillary »

If I didn't live here, I'd be laughing my tits off. As it is, I'm simply pretending it's not happening.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Crazedwraith »

Thanas wrote: 2017-07-11 06:31pm So now that Britain has wasted over half a year with delusional bullshit, they might be asking for a transitional period.
How do you figure 6 months? Counting from article 50 at the end of march, it's been 3 and a bit.

Not that it's not a total shitshow of course.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Thanas »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-07-12 05:55am
Thanas wrote: 2017-07-11 06:31pm So now that Britain has wasted over half a year with delusional bullshit, they might be asking for a transitional period.
How do you figure 6 months? Counting from article 50 at the end of march, it's been 3 and a bit.

Not that it's not a total shitshow of course.
I would figure they would have started planning directly after the referendum and gave them a few months tolerance.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Thanas »

MAKE BRITAIN GREAT AGAIN
EU says Brexit talks could fail after Johnson's 'go whistle' remarks
Michel Barnier says so-called ‘divorce bill’ is indivisible from other parts of negotiation and payment is a matter of trust


The European Union has said the Brexit talks could be derailed by an escalating fight over money as it fired back at Boris Johnson for telling the EU leaders to “go whistle” if they expected Britain to pay a divorce bill for withdrawing from the bloc.

“I am not hearing any whistling, just a clock ticking,” said the EU negotiator Michel Barnier at a press conference in Brussels to preview the next round of talks, due to begin on Monday.

His London counterpart, the Brexit secretary, David Davis, has not yet presented a formal UK position on the scale of any financial settlement when Britain leaves, which some estimates have suggested could be as a high as €100bn.

But EU officials are adamant that failure to at least acknowledge the principle of ongoing budget obligations would prevent talks from proceeding at all and not allow any discussion of future relationship issues such as a free trade deal.

“The three priorities for the first phase are indivisible,” said Barnier, referring to the financial settlement, citizens’ rights and other separation issues such as the Northern Irish border. “Progress on one or two would not be sufficient in order for us to move on to the discussion of our future relationship.”

In some of the most strident exchanges of the Brexit process so far, Barnier said the issue was not simply a technical sequencing matter but went to the heart of whether the two sides could trust each other.

“How do you build a relationship based on trade, security … which is going to last, with a country with which you don’t have trust?” implored the French diplomat. “I am saying this from the bottom of my heart, I want us to build that relationship.”

Questioned in the House of Commons on Tuesday about whether Brussels should be told to “go whistle” for the money – a dismissive suggestion that its demands are futile – Johnson, the foreign secretary, replied: “I think that the sums that I have seen ... seem to me to be extortionate and I think ‘go whistle’ is an entirely appropriate expression.”

“People have used words like ransom,” added Barnier. “It’s not an exit bill, it’s not a punishment, it’s not a revenge, it’s simply settling accounts. It’s not easy and it might be expensive, but we are not asking for a single pound or euro more than they have legally agreed to provide. You can discuss this or that budget line, but they have to start by recognising that they have entered into commitments.”


But money is not the only issue which threatens to derail the first phase of talks when Barnier and David regroup on Monday.

Earlier, the European Parliament’s Brexit co-ordinator Guy Verhofstadt revealed that MEPs would also seek a say on whether sufficient progress had been made over Britain’s offer on citizen’s rights.

The parliament is demanding that the UK match existing rights enjoyed by EU citizens living in Britain and say its alternative suggestion of a new “settled status” system would be bureaucratic and unsettling.

“We find that the proposal by the UK is absolutely not what we need,” Verhofstadt told the parliament’s committee on constitutional affairs. “It falls short in respecting the rights that EU nationals have on family reunification, rights to participate in local elections and falls short on simplicity.. it creates second class citizenship for EU nationals.”

Verhofstadt has already threatened to veto the final Brexit deal if citizens rights are not maintained but on Wednesday he opened a new front that could complicate efforts by Davis and Barnier to at least reach a temporary compromise on this opening issue.

“In October, the parliament will do an assessment to see if enough progress has been made to go into the second stage,” the Belgian liberal MEP told the committee. “The role of parliament is to scrutinise before the council has taken a decision.”

Domestic political pressure on Davis is also likely to intensify on Wednesday when Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon and Welsh first minister Carwyn Jones all arrive in Brussels for separate, private, talks with Barnier.

The EU’s chief negotiator said it was important he heard from the “differing points of view in the British debate” but insisted he would only negotiate officially with Davis, the UK’s Brexit secretary.
Great negotiating strategy, BoJo. First tell your former partners you won't pay any of the outstanding bills, then beg them to enter a new agreement with you.

Is that how it works in the private sector you love so much?
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Zaune »

I would find this situation much funnier if I wasn't very probably going to die as a direct result of it.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Thanas »

More good news:

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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I pray for the alliance with the DPU assholes to fail, so Britain can have another election and make Corbyn its PM.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Zaune »

Assuming we don't elect whoever the Tories replace May with instead, who I doubt would be any better.

Oh, fuck it all. Can we just abolish Parliament entirely and let the Civil Service run the country? It's not like we weren't slipping into oligarchy anyway, we might as well make it a vaguely competent one for a change.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't know, its hard to imagine Corbyn doing worse than last time, given the changes in circumstances since then.

But then, a lot of hard to imagine things have happened the last couple of years. If 2016 ought to have taught us anything, its that a vote isn't over until its over. But of course, that can cut both ways. :)
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Zaune »

Hah. It must be really nice, being a functional optimist. Wish I knew what you do differently to me; every time I experiment with it I end up wrecking my life.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I can be cynical (and dysfunctional) enough, when the mood strikes me.

But I try to, and tend to naturally, keep in mind all possibilities- the good as well as the bad. I can envision futures where we all burn in nuclear fire by the end of the summer without too much difficulty. I can also envision futures where the tide continues to turn against the far Right, where by the end of next year, the Democrats sweep Congress and are ready to impeach Trump, and where Corbyn is PM.

Moreover, I honestly don't see the point of defeatism, except to make things worse by turning even more people towards either extremism or apathy. Even if I thought that we were going to lose, I hope I'd keep trying to win, both to do as much good as possible, and to make it as hard for the despots as possible. Don't know if I would though, and hope I never have occasion to find out.
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"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Exonerate »

It's so interesting to watch the parallels between the US and UK elections and divergent conclusions people draw for each of them.

In the US, the establishment candidate, supposedly the most qualified ever, with overwhelming media support went up against an incompetent clown advertising a boatload of bad policies and narrowly lost after performing worse than expected. Despite the deck stacked in their favor, this can be solely attributed to, we are told by the center-left, the Russians (and maybe Comey - I can't keep up with the current party line of whether he's a principled man trying to do the right thing or a partisan in cahoots with Trump). The Presidency went from D to R, but since Hillary won the popular vote, she and her platform didn't really lose.

In the UK, the anti-establishment candidate, supposedly unelectable, facing stiff resistance within his own party and overwhelmingly hostile media, went up against another incompetent clown and narrowly lost after performing better than expected. This time, according to the center-left, Corbyn lost because he didn't win the majority despite reversing the previous disastrous General Election and it had nothing to do with his manifesto. The surge in younger voter turnout that carried the day (in contrast to Hillary's drop) is similarly pooh-poohed away.

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Coop D'etat
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by Coop D'etat »

Exonerate wrote: 2017-07-15 08:10pm It's so interesting to watch the parallels between the US and UK elections and divergent conclusions people draw for each of them.

In the US, the establishment candidate, supposedly the most qualified ever, with overwhelming media support went up against an incompetent clown advertising a boatload of bad policies and narrowly lost after performing worse than expected. Despite the deck stacked in their favor, this can be solely attributed to, we are told by the center-left, the Russians (and maybe Comey - I can't keep up with the current party line of whether he's a principled man trying to do the right thing or a partisan in cahoots with Trump). The Presidency went from D to R, but since Hillary won the popular vote, she and her platform didn't really lose.

In the UK, the anti-establishment candidate, supposedly unelectable, facing stiff resistance within his own party and overwhelmingly hostile media, went up against another incompetent clown and narrowly lost after performing better than expected. This time, according to the center-left, Corbyn lost because he didn't win the majority despite reversing the previous disastrous General Election and it had nothing to do with his manifesto. The surge in younger voter turnout that carried the day (in contrast to Hillary's drop) is similarly pooh-poohed away.
How about both H. Clinton and Corbyn are failures at their actual jobs of leading their respective major parties to victory against an appallingly weak opponent and despite whatever moral victory their partisans are pointing to, neither candidate is actually worthy of emulation for and Anglosphere left-wing party looking to win an election?

It's entirely possible for both the hard-left and the centrist politician to be bad at their jobs and failures at electioneering for entirely different reasons. That and UK and US politics aren't all that similar in the first place so any grand meta-narrative a pundit wants to push is probably simplistic and ill-considered in the first place.
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Re: Theresa May calls snap General Election for June 8th

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Coop D'etat wrote: 2017-07-15 09:50pm
Exonerate wrote: 2017-07-15 08:10pm It's so interesting to watch the parallels between the US and UK elections and divergent conclusions people draw for each of them.

In the US, the establishment candidate, supposedly the most qualified ever, with overwhelming media support went up against an incompetent clown advertising a boatload of bad policies and narrowly lost after performing worse than expected. Despite the deck stacked in their favor, this can be solely attributed to, we are told by the center-left, the Russians (and maybe Comey - I can't keep up with the current party line of whether he's a principled man trying to do the right thing or a partisan in cahoots with Trump). The Presidency went from D to R, but since Hillary won the popular vote, she and her platform didn't really lose.

In the UK, the anti-establishment candidate, supposedly unelectable, facing stiff resistance within his own party and overwhelmingly hostile media, went up against another incompetent clown and narrowly lost after performing better than expected. This time, according to the center-left, Corbyn lost because he didn't win the majority despite reversing the previous disastrous General Election and it had nothing to do with his manifesto. The surge in younger voter turnout that carried the day (in contrast to Hillary's drop) is similarly pooh-poohed away.
How about both H. Clinton and Corbyn are failures at their actual jobs of leading their respective major parties to victory against an appallingly weak opponent and despite whatever moral victory their partisans are pointing to, neither candidate is actually worthy of emulation for and Anglosphere left-wing party looking to win an election?
Sturgeon and May also qualify, the latter in particular for reasons already discussed. In many ways she's left herself open to the same kind of shenanigans that Corbyn's been fending off since he became Labour leader.
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