the problem of overbooked flights in the US

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 9527
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-04-10 09:31pm

I have heard of this problem, although I have personally never experienced it. Now on my youtube subscriptions there is a story of United dragging a passenger out of an overbooked flight.
linky

Police drag bleeding man off United flight in the US because he refused to leave ‘overbooked’ plane
APRIL 11, 20178:51AM

A DOCTOR who refused to surrender his seat on an overbooked United Airlines flight in the US was dragged off the plane by security, according to passenger accounts and video.
The man was dragged off kicking and screaming when he refused to give up his seat — and was recorded by passengers outraged at his treatment, reports the New York Post.

The man, who some social media users said is a doctor, was pulled from his seat at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport before the flight to Louisville, Kentucky.
A short video posted by passenger Audra Bridges shows uniformed security personnel pulling the screaming man in front of horrified passengers.
“Oh my God! What are you doing?” one woman is heard saying.
“Look at what you did to him,” a man is then heard saying as the man — who suffered an injury to the mouth — is dragged along the aisle with his stomach exposed.

“Good work, way to go,” another passenger says derisively.
Passenger Tyler Bridges tweeted: “Not a good way to treat a doctor trying to get to work because they overbooked.”
After a furious backlash, United CEO Oscar Munoz ultimately released a statement.

“This is an upsetting event to all of us here at United. I apologise for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened,” he said.
“We are also reaching out to this passenger to talk directly to him and further address and resolve this situation.”

Celebrities also took to social media to express their disgust.
“Having flown United last week, I feel very blessed to not be tweeting this message from a hospital bed,” actor Josh Gad tweeted.
“Getting on a United flight this morning. Excited to, I don’t know ... stay on?” added Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator Joss Whedon.

Actor Kumail Nanjiani also had a go at the police who had attended the incident.
“So United sucks. But the Chicago police who dragged the man off the flight are also monsters,” he tweeted. “Police using unnecessary force again.”
In an earlier statement, a United spokesman said the flight had been overbooked.
“After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate. We apologise for the overbook situation. Further details on the removed customer should be directed to authorities,” the spokesman said.

Audra Bridges said passengers had been told at the gate that United offered US$400 (A$530) and a hotel stay for a volunteer who would agree to take another flight the following day, the Courier-Journal of Louisville reported.
Passengers were told the flight would not take off until the crew had seats, Bridges said, and the offer was increased to US$800 (A$1000), but no one took up the offer.
At that point, she said, a manager said a computer would select four passengers to be removed. One couple was selected first and left the airliner, she said, before the man in the video was confronted.

The man said he was a doctor who needed to see patients at a hospital in the morning and became “very upset,” she said. But the manager told him that security would remove him if he didn’t budge.
After two security guards tried to talk him into leaving his seat, a third arrived and threw the passenger against the armrest before the guards dragged him out of the plane.

But the man managed to get back on the aircraft and ran to the back of the plane, Bridges said.
A medical crew arrived to treat the bloodied man, while other passengers were told to get off so staff could “tidy up” the plane.
“Everyone was shocked and appalled,” Bridges told the paper. “There were several children on the flight as well that were very upset.”
The flight was delayed about two hours before its flight to Louisville.
This story was originally published in the New York Post and is reprinted with permission

How do you overbook a flight? Doesn't the software stop this happening?
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2020
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Tribble » 2017-04-10 09:53pm

Actually flights are very frequently overbooked and the airlines assume that X % of passengers won't make it on time and/ or cancel for one reason or another. When they get it wrong and more people show up than they anticipated, some will end up having to wait for the next flight. While this is speculation, I'm sure they also have algorithms to determine who gets the shaft- I wouldn't be surprised if this was an economy class passenger who doesn't frequently use the airline, for example. Something like this was bound to happen eventually as someone was going to flat out refuse to give up their seat. Obviously the way they handled was terrible.

Personally I think overbooking should be illegal, but naturally they've gotta have the ability to squeeze out those extra dollars, right?

EDIT: I've had this experience with chartered bus services as well. One time a route was so overbooked that even though I showed up well before the first bus arrived and had already pre-ordered a ticket I had to wait until the third bus before I could get a seat because I wasn't first stop on the route (an extra 2 hour wait for a 5+ hour trip, not happy). When I complained, I was told that even though I had bought the ticket I was not actually guaranteed a seat that day, and it was still first come first serve. Checked into it, and ya they can totally do that.
Last edited by Tribble on 2017-04-10 10:03pm, edited 3 times in total.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 9527
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-04-10 09:57pm

Reading some of the comments people have argued in the United case, it was not so much overbooking, but they wanted a passenger's seat for their own crew. Someone more knowledgeable could give their opinion on it.

Meanwhile, looking at the overbooking situation, wiki has some basic info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overselling

Airlines may ask for volunteers to give away their seats or refuse boarding to certain passengers in exchange for a compensation that may include an additional free ticket or an upgrade in a later flight. They can do this and still make more money than if they booked only to the plane's capacity and had it take off with empty seats. Some airlines, like JetBlue Airways, do not overbook as a policy that provides incentive and avoids customer disappointment.[10] They are able to do this and remain profitable as the majority of their customers are tourists, instead of business fliers, and their tickets are non-refundable, thereby lowering the chances of passengers missing their flights. A few airline frequent flyer programs actually allow a customer the privilege of flying an already overbooked flight; another customer will be asked to leave. Often, only economy class is overbooked while higher classes are not, allowing the airline to upgrade some passengers to otherwise unused seats while providing assurance to higher paying customers. In the EU, Regulation 261/2004 sets out compensation requirements for airlines that deny boarding to passengers due to overbooking.

In 2007, Air Deccan, the Indian low cost airline was found by Directorate General of Civil Aviation to overbook even when they weren't permitted to do so. They were known to cheat passengers by tagging the confirmed tickets as no show for compensating the additional seats. The airline pocketed all the money made by overbooking, minus airport tax, without offering a later flight for overbooked customers. The passengers that arrive last, either on time or even a minute late, become the target.[11]

In 2011, Delta Air Lines began a practice in which they overbook some flights, using algorithms to determine how many seats to overbook based on historical data, and allow passengers checking in for the overbooked flight to state the value of travel vouchers they would be willing to accept in exchange for taking a later flight. The airline then selects the passengers who will be bumped to a later flight based on the lowest bids.[12] According to the airline, the biggest cost savings from the practice is that it improves on-time flight departures, since gate attendants are not burdened with negotiating with passengers that are considering being bumped from the flight.[12] Among the three major U.S. carriers, Delta had the highest rate of total bumped passengers (96 per 100,000 passengers vs. 50 on American Airlines and 95 on United Airlines), but the lowest rate of involuntarily bumped passengers (3 per 100,000 vs. 5 on American and 11 on United).[1
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 9527
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-04-10 10:16pm

A quick read says this also happens in Australia (the overbooking, not the bashing up passengers), but rarely.

linky
Airlines in the United States are allowed to oversell flights, and they frequently do, because they assume that some passengers won’t show up.
While it is not a practice among airlines in Australia, in the US, airlines bumped 40,000 passengers last year, not counting those who volunteered to give up their seats.
United Airlines — the centre of the current controversy — booted 3765 passengers off flights just last year.
“Being thrown off a flight because of overbooking is a common scenario in the US, but rarely, if ever, seen in Australia,” finder.com.au’s travel expert Angus Kidman told news.com.au.
“Our consumer laws provide better protection than what is available in the US so it’s highly unlikely we’d see this happen Down Under.
“However, it’s definitely something Australians need to be conscious of when booking US flights.”
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13894
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Gandalf » 2017-04-10 11:04pm

mr friendly guy wrote:A quick read says this also happens in Australia (the overbooking, not the bashing up passengers), but rarely.


I know Tiger Airways used to do it, as the reality show seemingly based solely on their misadventures showed lots of people being denied checkin because of overbooking.
"How you wanna raise a flag with a rifle
To make us want to celebrate anything but survival?
Nah, you watching tele for The Bachelor
But wouldn’t read a book about a fuckload of massacres?"

- A.B. Original, January 26

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12086
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: The Sanctuary Doing Some Ironing

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Flagg » 2017-04-11 03:41am

My nephew had to wait 3 hours on the tarmac until they could find a fucking pilot to fly the plane (the carrier was Southwest).

In this situation where they needed a seat for a crew member, instead of "running a computer algorithm" (which reeks of bullshit), the last people to have checked in/boarded the plane should have been the ones bumped from the flight and the airline should have to pay for a hotel stay, meals, etc to the passengers removed as well as flying them first class and for free. They should also have to pay a $50,000(usd) fine to the FAA for each passenger "bumped" for every day/night they have to wait.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 03:52am

In a better world, refusing to give someone what they paid good money for, and then using police brutality to remove them when they object, would be prosecutable as armed robbery.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 9527
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-04-11 04:10am

The thing is, how much money is United going to lose after this? Their 2016 revenue is $36.6 billion. Are they going to lose thousands, tens of thousands, millions? They could have just increased the money for someone to leave. I mean even if they jack up the offer of $800 to $4000 per passenger and 1 day hotel stay to get those 4 passengers off, it can't possibly be more than what they will lose.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8102
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Ace Pace » 2017-04-11 04:27am

mr friendly guy wrote:The thing is, how much money is United going to lose after this? Their 2016 revenue is $36.6 billion. Are they going to lose thousands, tens of thousands, millions? They could have just increased the money for someone to leave. I mean even if they jack up the offer of $800 to $4000 per passenger and 1 day hotel stay to get those 4 passengers off, it can't possibly be more than what they will lose.


Do they care? Why should they? Facts show that last time there was this viral event, their stock price just went higher.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 04:33am

I guess Wall Street likes a company that knows how to keep the peasants in line?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8102
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Ace Pace » 2017-04-11 06:48am

The Romulan Republic wrote:I guess Wall Street likes a company that knows how to keep the peasants in line?


Stock markets like companies that deliver financial results. If you incentivize ethical behavior like conflict free sourcing (to pick one example) then they will reward that.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |

User avatar
PREDATOR490
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2006-03-13 08:04am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-04-11 08:03am

mr friendly guy wrote:... They could have just increased the money for someone to leave. I mean even if they jack up the offer of $800 to $4000 per passenger and 1 day hotel stay to get those 4 passengers off, it can't possibly be more than what they will lose.


I would agree that increasing the compensation would have been a far better move but... the problem is that a situation will inevitably arise where no matter how much they increase it by, people will not move and taking time to negotiate with customers individually to figure out why would be unreasonable.
I.E This story claims the guy was a Doctor travelling to treat patients. If this is true, no amount of compensation could get that Doctor to move because doing so would screw his patients. Same goes for other individuals that have a time sensitive journey or the compensation does not equal the cost it would incur.

I feel amused at the way this situation arises.

The company overbooks a plane out of incompetence or greed then tries to buy out the customers.
I am curious, do the people selected 'randomly' still get the compensation ?

The better solution is to just stop over-booking these flights. Then the company does not have to incur costs by kicking people off a plane.


The upside - The victim is going to get a nice payday.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 08:06am

Yes, their should be federal laws preventing deliberate overbooking.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
PREDATOR490
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2006-03-13 08:04am
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-04-11 08:53am

Since this story has now gone viral.

It appears the plane was not overbooked. The seats were "needed" because employees of the company had to travel to another airport for another flight the next day. So... they kicked off a Doctor trying to get to his work so one of their staff could get to work. I guess making 4 crew drive for 5 hours was not cost effective compared to kicking off four customers.

I hope the victim gets a massive pay day out of this to really screw the company for this bullshit.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 08:57am

And again, how is kicking someone off a flight they paid for, not even because its overbooked but just because you subsequently decide you want to give the seat to someone else, and calling the police to remove them by excessive force, not assault and armed robbery?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 9527
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-04-11 09:00am

PREDATOR490 wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:... They could have just increased the money for someone to leave. I mean even if they jack up the offer of $800 to $4000 per passenger and 1 day hotel stay to get those 4 passengers off, it can't possibly be more than what they will lose.


I would agree that increasing the compensation would have been a far better move but... the problem is that a situation will inevitably arise where no matter how much they increase it by, people will not move and taking time to negotiate with customers individually to figure out why would be unreasonable.
I.E This story claims the guy was a Doctor travelling to treat patients. If this is true, no amount of compensation could get that Doctor to move because doing so would screw his patients. Same goes for other individuals that have a time sensitive journey or the compensation does not equal the cost it would incur.
.

I think a doctor needing to get back to work would not move except under extreme reparation. However before they randomly selected 4 people, they could have increased the compensation, and if the plane is full, chances are we are going get 4 people who are willing to accept a higher compensation than $800.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24899
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-11 09:26am

mr friendly guy wrote:Reading some of the comments people have argued in the United case, it was not so much overbooking, but they wanted a passenger's seat for their own crew. Someone more knowledgeable could give their opinion on it.

Crew members commuting via their own airline is routine and arguably necessary. If the crew isn't where they need to be when they need to be there then the airline might need to cancel a flight, or at least delay it until they can get someone there which may be may hours. So the airline tends to think "we can risk pissing off four customers now or risk pissing off 150 or 200 later".

That said, this whole matter undoubtedly could have been handled better.

The Chicago "aviation police" have been asking if they could carry guns for some time now. As of this morning that's not going to happen due to this incident. One officer involved in dragging man off the plane has been put on leave. No explanation as to why ALL of them haven't been. It should be noted that official Chicago Police also patrol O'Hare, and they are armed, but they were not involved in this incident. The police initially said the man "fell" and the officers were attempting to carry him off the airplane, which is such a trite excusing of police brutality that it would be funny if it wasn't so damn serious. Thank goodness for cell phone video.

Frankly, the airline (aside from not overbooking, which is such a common practice here it's not going to stop) needed to up the compensation for a volunteer (it's not unheard of for bumped passengers to receive a thousand or two in compensation), and when the man balked, try to figure out why he was so adamant. "Doctor needs to see patients" is a pretty good reason to stay on the airplane, and perhaps they could have selected someone else instead.

It was very badly handled.

PREDATOR490 wrote:It appears the plane was not overbooked. The seats were "needed" because employees of the company had to travel to another airport for another flight the next day. So... they kicked off a Doctor trying to get to his work so one of their staff could get to work. I guess making 4 crew drive for 5 hours was not cost effective compared to kicking off four customers.

It might not have been.

The airplane would get the crew to Kentucky in about an hour and a half. The drive would be at least 5 hours (I keep seeing "5 hours" bandied about and that has to be based on internet software. I've made that drive numerous times, 5 hours is EXTREMELY optimistic and might be possible if you leave at 3 or 4 in the morning so Chicago traffic is minimal. Any time after rush hour starts you're going to take at least an extra hour just getting through traffic around the big city which will extend all the way into Indiana (the route would take you by where I live and the traffic won't let up until you drive I-65 south halfway through Lake County, Indiana).

So, aside from the issues of fatigue setting in from just a 5 hour drive, it's likely to be longer than a 5 hour drive which may or may start impacting employee work day limits, and/or make the employees late for the flight they need to crew on (we don't know when that flight was scheduled to take off, but it might have been sooner than 5 hours). The airline is going to favor the transportation mode they feel they control the most.

The Romulan Republic wrote:And again, how is kicking someone off a flight they paid for, not even because its overbooked but just because you subsequently decide you want to give the seat to someone else, and calling the police to remove them by excessive force, not assault and armed robbery?

If you do something almost no one ever does and read the back of the airline ticket you will find out that the airline does not guarantee you will actually get a seat on the flight you booked. The print is fine and hard to read but that's what it says - they can bump you from a flight. Used to be they didn't even have to compensate you for it, but the rules have changed at least that much.

However, the excessive force is an issue that needs to be addressed and, thanks to cell phone video, will be.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 09:27am

Oh yeah, I'm sure they've got lots of fine print to make it legal.

Point is, it shouldn't be.

And yes, the excessive force is an issue regardless.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24899
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-11 10:18am

The problem is that the airline needs protection for cancelling a flight for a valid reason having to do with safety. Otherwise, some asshat is going to sue them because they decided not to fly said asshat to Dallas through a field of tornadoes or something. Or some fault is found with an airplane rendering it unsafe but an asshat NEEDS to get to Boston NOW!!!!! The public isn't able to make informed decisions as to whether or not weather or airplanes are safe to fly, the airlines are obligated to make those decisions which really are life-or-death matters. That was, originally, why airlines were given an out. They should not be sued for cancelling a flight that needs to be cancelled.

Of course, the lawyers got ahold of it and ran with it. And corporations are your friend and will try to interpret things to their advantage.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11805
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-11 10:23am

Fair enough.

I suppose any new restrictions would have to be carefully worded, with any grey areas being left up to the courts to resolve. But that's always the case with any regulation.

Just as long as airlines aren't able to dick with passengers simply to avoid minor inconvenience.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 21940
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Mr Bean » 2017-04-11 11:53am

So couple of review points of this entire fun incident

1. The airline has the right to not let you on a flight because of overbooking. That right ends once they seat you on the plane, because one your checked in and in your seat the common carrier clauses end. Now they are free to cancel the entire flight or remove you for security reasons but once you make it to your seats they lose the right to simply say sorry we need that seat for someone else.

2. The flight per initial reports was not overbooked as keeps getting reported, it was full but United needed to move four crew people to another hub to fly some airplane in the future. Rather than book these people on another airline (They have the ability to do so and airlines use each other to move personnel around all the time when planes are full) they (Whatever dumb ass manager in charge) decided to do a seat offer buyout for airplane vouchers (rather than money which the laws says they have to offer) and when they got no takers rather than raising the money more they called the cops and had one of the random picks yanked leading to that fun video.

3. The cops no joke release a statement despite multiple people having video evidence of what was going on saying the injured doctor "he fell" which is all kinds of messed up as you can see him getting a face full of armrest because he got slammed into it via the videos posted

4. I can't stress this enough, the airline can DENY BOARDING they can't remove you except if canceling the plane or for security reasons. Which the chicago PD counted as good old fashion arrested for resisting arrest.

But don't take my word for it, take Unites word for it as they are happy To post the rules on their website, to note read that and it says boarding, boarding boarding boarding board. Once you've already boarded the offer has passed and had United's shitty management did this offer at the gate they would have been free and clear in everything they did (Because then you'd be guilty of trying to force you way onto a domestic flight which is a no joke offense) as opposed to the more questionable issue of being forced to give up your seat.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
I'll eat my boots if Clinton gets less than 48% of the vote in November.-maraxus2 August 4th 2016

User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12086
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: The Sanctuary Doing Some Ironing

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Flagg » 2017-04-11 01:01pm

Broomstick wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:Reading some of the comments people have argued in the United case, it was not so much overbooking, but they wanted a passenger's seat for their own crew. Someone more knowledgeable could give their opinion on it.

Crew members commuting via their own airline is routine and arguably necessary. If the crew isn't where they need to be when they need to be there then the airline might need to cancel a flight, or at least delay it until they can get someone there which may be may hours. So the airline tends to think "we can risk pissing off four customers now or risk pissing off 150 or 200 later".

That said, this whole matter undoubtedly could have been handled better.

The Chicago "aviation police" have been asking if they could carry guns for some time now. As of this morning that's not going to happen due to this incident. One officer involved in dragging man off the plane has been put on leave. No explanation as to why ALL of them haven't been. It should be noted that official Chicago Police also patrol O'Hare, and they are armed, but they were not involved in this incident. The police initially said the man "fell" and the officers were attempting to carry him off the airplane, which is such a trite excusing of police brutality that it would be funny if it wasn't so damn serious. Thank goodness for cell phone video.

Frankly, the airline (aside from not overbooking, which is such a common practice here it's not going to stop) needed to up the compensation for a volunteer (it's not unheard of for bumped passengers to receive a thousand or two in compensation), and when the man balked, try to figure out why he was so adamant. "Doctor needs to see patients" is a pretty good reason to stay on the airplane, and perhaps they could have selected someone else instead.

It was very badly handled.

PREDATOR490 wrote:It appears the plane was not overbooked. The seats were "needed" because employees of the company had to travel to another airport for another flight the next day. So... they kicked off a Doctor trying to get to his work so one of their staff could get to work. I guess making 4 crew drive for 5 hours was not cost effective compared to kicking off four customers.

It might not have been.

The airplane would get the crew to Kentucky in about an hour and a half. The drive would be at least 5 hours (I keep seeing "5 hours" bandied about and that has to be based on internet software. I've made that drive numerous times, 5 hours is EXTREMELY optimistic and might be possible if you leave at 3 or 4 in the morning so Chicago traffic is minimal. Any time after rush hour starts you're going to take at least an extra hour just getting through traffic around the big city which will extend all the way into Indiana (the route would take you by where I live and the traffic won't let up until you drive I-65 south halfway through Lake County, Indiana).

So, aside from the issues of fatigue setting in from just a 5 hour drive, it's likely to be longer than a 5 hour drive which may or may start impacting employee work day limits, and/or make the employees late for the flight they need to crew on (we don't know when that flight was scheduled to take off, but it might have been sooner than 5 hours). The airline is going to favor the transportation mode they feel they control the most.

The Romulan Republic wrote:And again, how is kicking someone off a flight they paid for, not even because its overbooked but just because you subsequently decide you want to give the seat to someone else, and calling the police to remove them by excessive force, not assault and armed robbery?

If you do something almost no one ever does and read the back of the airline ticket you will find out that the airline does not guarantee you will actually get a seat on the flight you booked. The print is fine and hard to read but that's what it says - they can bump you from a flight. Used to be they didn't even have to compensate you for it, but the rules have changed at least that much.

However, the excessive force is an issue that needs to be addressed and, thanks to cell phone video, will be.


The "5 hour drive" thing is bullshit, I agree. The airline should have chartered a flight for their crew. Especially since now, that would've been far cheaper than what the airline will be paying out and how much the flying pigs (boom shakka lakka) are going to cost the airport.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4088
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Vienna, Austria, Europe, Terra

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby LaCroix » 2017-04-11 01:13pm

Flagg wrote:The "5 hour drive" thing is bullshit, I agree. The airline should have chartered a flight for their crew. Especially since now, that would've been far cheaper than what the airline will be paying out and how much the flying pigs (boom shakka lakka) are going to cost the airport.


Indeed.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu
United Airlines shares plummet after passenger dragged from plane

Shares plummeted Tuesday, wiping close to $1bn off the holding company’s value, after a man was violently removed from a flight by aviation police

Shares in United Airlines’ parent company plummeted on Tuesday, wiping close to $1bn off of the company’s value, a day after a viral video showing police forcibly dragging a passenger off one of its plane became a global news sensation.

The value of the carrier’s holding company, United Continental Holdings, had fallen over 4% before noon, close to $1bn less than the $22.5bn as of Monday’s close, according to FactSet data.

Investors largely shrugged off United’s woes during trading on Monday. The airline’s stock finished Monday’s trading session 0.9% higher, adding about $200m to the company’s market cap.

But the airline’s problems only seem to have escalated since Sunday, when a man was violently removed from a flight by aviation police officials at Chicago’s O’Hare international airport after refusing to volunteer his seat on the overbooked flight.
America's airlines are shameless. But United has just set a new low

In one video clip guards aggressively grab then dra the passenger down the aisle of the plane as other passengers shout: “Oh my God” and “Look what you did to him”.

On Tuesday chief executive Oscar Munoz attracted criticism after calling the passenger “disruptive and belligerent” and saying that the airline’s employees “followed established procedures”.

The passenger is overheard in one video claiming he was being profiled for being Chinese, and the video has caused outrage in China and calls for a boycott.

Ahead of the market’s open, United shares had been down by as much as 6% in premarket trading.


Someone will be very unhappy.
Blaming the passenger despite video evidence made everything worse.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.

User avatar
muse
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1666
Joined: 2003-11-26 07:04pm
Location: 43° 34' 30" N, 79° 33' W

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby muse » 2017-04-11 02:33pm

So United has graduated from breaking guitars to breaking people.

Next step:

Image
ø¤ º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
(Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.)

I like Celine Dion myself. Her ballads alone....they make me go all teary-eyed and shit.
- Havok

User avatar
Napoleon the Clown
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2124
Joined: 2007-05-05 02:54pm
Location: Uta­h, bastion of Mormons, Minivans, and Jello

Re: the problem of overbooked flights in the US

Postby Napoleon the Clown » 2017-04-11 03:56pm

The #NewUnitedMottos tag on Twitter is an international treasure. They are getting dragged harder than the doctor they had beat.

An ABC affiliate tweeted about how the doctor had some sort of legal history and were going to report on it, but after people called out how shitty it was the anchor that tweeted it deleted said tweet. She posted three new tweets on the matter, this one being most relevant. "2/3) By covering this side of the story, we’re not defending United in any way. We’ll continue to address their role in this situation."

I have no idea how "made a few mistakes in his past" is relevant to being beaten because United fucked up and the guy had patients to take care of. I personally wouldn't be shocked if United were involved in this narrative being pushed, or the records being "uncovered."
Image
Created by Instant Sunrise.


Return to “News and Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SpottedKitty and 19 guests