Australia's NBN problem

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mr friendly guy
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Australia's NBN problem

Post by mr friendly guy »

linky
The big lie that NBN customers are being sold

LIKE many other avid gamers, Ben Wilson was excited to sign up for the NBN and chose a plan that would give him the top speed available.
But weeks later he is frustrated and angry that no one told him it would be impossible to get the “superfast” speeds he is paying for.
In fact he is one of many Australians who feel like they’ve been sold a lie.
Mr Wilson, who lives in Albion Park near Wollongong, will never be able to achieve the current top download speed of 100 megabits per second (Mbps) because his NBN is connected via copper wire through the Fibre-to-the-Node system.
The 100/40 plan is the top speed that retailers like Optus, Telstra and iiNet are offering for the NBN, although higher speeds will hopefully be available in the future.
It means you should get “up to” a speed of 100 megabits per second (Mbps) when downloading, and 40 Mbps when uploading.
Trouble is, Mr Wilson says he hasn’t seen his speed get higher than 49 Mbps when downloading, and 20 Mbps when uploading.
“99 per cent of the time I am lucky to get over 20/20,” he told news.com.au.
“The Australian public have been sold a lie.”

While a download speed of 20 Mbps is faster than the 15 Mbps he could get using ADSL, it is much less than 100 Mbps he is paying for. It is also not consistent.
“It is not a constant speed,” he said. “We get constant slow downs below 10Mbps ... so we pretty much had a more reliable connection on ADSL.”
When speeds drop this low it’s hard to stream movies or TV series on Netflix at the same time as he is playing games online, which is why he wanted the technology in the first place, and which he managed to do using his old ADSL connection.
Like Mr Wilson, there are many other Australians who don’t realise that no matter how much they pay, they may never get close to the top speed, and there are several reasons why.
Here’s how it works.
IT DEPENDS WHERE YOU LIVE
While the NBN hopes to one day deliver speeds of up to 1 gigabit for those whose homes are connected directly to the network using Fibre-to-the-Home, for those who are relying on the copper network, the expectations need to be much lower.
As an NBN spokesman told news.com.au, some households connected through the copper system will be able to get download speeds of up to 100 Mbps.
But what’s less well known, is that this can drop off dramatically, the further you are from the Cabinet where the copper meets the fibre optic cable.
If your home is within 400m of the Cabinet, you’ll probably be able to get the top speed.
But for those up to 800m away, you should halve your expectations. You’ll probably only be able to get 50 Mbps.
Beyond that you are looking at 25 Mbps.
While there’s much promotion of the “superfast” 100/40 speeds, NBN website says it actually considers anything over 25 Mbps to be “superfast”.
This is still higher than what people can get using the traditional ADSL network but customers are being signed up to contract for higher speeds when it’s actually impossible to get these speeds.
AND IT CAN GET EVEN SLOWER ...
The other important factor that can stop you from achieving top speeds, depends on which retailer you chose to sign up to.
There are dozens of companies like Optus, Telstra and iiNet who are offering NBN plans. They buy capacity from the NBN to deliver internet to their customers but the speeds that can be achieved depends on how much bandwidth they buy.

If they don’t buy enough bandwidth, their services can be very slow during peak periods when more people are trying to access the network.
So speeds are also limited by which company you sign a contract with, and what speeds they can actually deliver.
Comparing the many different companies offering NBN connection, and how much speed they can actually deliver is extremely difficult as this information is not generally published.
Companies such as YouTube and Netflix are now ranking different service providers according to the speed to help their customers out.
THE BLAME GAME
One of the frustrations for customers, is that when they complain about their service, NBN often points the finger at the retailers, while they point the finger back at the NBN.
“Telstra blames NBN Co, you try and speak to NBN Co, and they pass you back to your RSP (Retail Service Provider). It is a vicious circle,” Mr Wilson said.
When asked whether he knew that he could not get anywhere near the top speed, the Mr Wilson said no one had told him this before he signed up.
“No where is it written when you sign up for a plan with Telstra, or any telco in fact,” he said.
It’s also not mentioned on the NBN website, which only has vague statements about speeds varying depending on the service provider, technology, equipment quality and software.
While Mr Wilson said he knew there would be some limitations because he was connecting via copper, he didn’t realise this meant his top speed would be 50 Mbps, as a best-case scenario.
This is not commonly known among the public, even savvy users like Mr Wilson, who was surprised when news.com.au informed him of the technical limitation after queries to the NBN.
Many other NBN users have also told news.com.au about similar issues.
“Both my brother and myself are pretty switched on when it comes to technology,” Mr Wilson said.
“We both have high end gaming PC’s, yet neither of us could predict this.”
Mr Wilson thought that with a 25/5 plan, you could get anywhere “up to” those speeds, which meant a 50/20 plan would give download speeds of between 25 and 50 Mbps, and a 100/40 plan would provide speeds of between 50 and 100 Mbps.
Confusing the matter even more is that others in Mr Wilson’s area have been able to get speeds of between 70 to 80 Mbps, probably because they are closer to the node.
CONSUMERS ARE CONFUSED
It seems that Mr Wilson is not the only Australian confused.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission released a report Friday into its consultation about broadband speeds, and found 80 per cent of the more than 390 consumers that responded, complained about being confused.
“Consumers believe they aren’t getting what they sign up for, and pay for, when it comes to home internet speeds,” ACCC chairman Rod Sims said.
“It’s is time the industry met consumer demand for accurate information about broadband speeds so consumers can compare offers and make informed decisions about their internet services.”
In particular he said the use of “up to” was misleading when talking about broadband speeds.
“In some advertising contexts it’s OK, but when it comes to broadband, it tells you nothing at best, and at worst it tells you nothing.”

The ACCC is now consulting with the industry to put out some guidelines. Once these have been established, it will be able to take action if future ads are misleading. But it also wants a broadband monitoring scheme, which would require government approval, so that it can identify what speeds are actually being delivered.
“One thing that’s really important about the monitoring program is to determine whether people getting lower speeds is the fault of the (retailer) or the NBN,” he said.
“That’s absolutely fundamental to the debate we’re having.”
He said if monitoring showed everyone in a particular area was getting slower speeds, the NBN was probably at fault, but if only customers of certain retailers were experiencing problems, the problem was likely to be coming from them.
“The Australian taxpayer is spending a lot of money on the NBN and we need to know whether it is working or not, and if criticism should be directed at the NBN or should be directed at the retail service provider,” he said.
“I don’t think it’s been focused enough on the whole discussion of this issue.”
A Telstra spokesman said the telco welcomed the ACCC report and it planned to start publishing data that outlines the performance of its NBN service during busy periods when demand was greatest.
“And, from midyear, we will introduce technology that gives customers a realistic estimate of network speeds into their premises before they take up an NBN service,” he said.
“This will include information on what speeds they can expect from the network in busy periods and what applications they can run at those speeds.
In Australia with ADSL I get maximum 350 -410 kb/second, but most of the time I don't get quite this fast. I Sweden I found it can get up to 1.2 mb/second, which is 3-4 times what I get here. In Norway it was around 900 kb/second, so around 3 times faster.

We're a rich country. Our GDP / capita is comparable to Sweden's and with more population we have a larger economy. Why the hell can't we get this right, especially as we have been talking about it for ages.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Kb or KB? Mb or MB? It's an important distinction when dealing with such hilariously-slow internet speeds in a way that it's not when discussing nontrivial connections.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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KB/second.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

Post by Starglider »

DSL speed dropoff with distance is basic electrical engineering. The only fix is to build more fibre nodes (cabinets) and that is just hugely expensive. In short if you want reliable high speed, you can either live in a metro area, check the nearest fibre location before you buy the house or pay for a business (leased line) connection. We get a usable 70/20 megabit but only because I checked the local fibre node was less than 100m from the house when we bought it 3 years ago. I'd like the 300Mbit FTTP(oD) but practical rollout of that is being delayed by OpenReach beurecratic issues in the UK.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Unfortunately I moved into my house while the politicians were still talking about the NBN, ie years ago. Its still being rolled out, so its not like I could have predicted where they would have put the fibre location when deciding where to buy. That being said since I live in a metro area, I should get decent speeds. However if its not much more faster than what I have now, its most probably not worth it.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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mr friendly guy wrote:We're a rich country. Our GDP / capita is comparable to Sweden's and with more population we have a larger economy. Why the hell can't we get this right, especially as we have been talking about it for ages.
Chicken and egg problem. No one uses the internet because the the infrastructure is terrible, and the infrastructure is terrible because no one uses the internet. There is also the problem of Australia's internal land-based infrastructure. It has almost none in over 95% of it. This is important because of "backbones", high capacity connections that run between major hubs like major metropolises, universities, and in some countries, military bases. If a town isn't near a backbone, its not going to have good internet.

Worse, much of your backbone is underseas cables. Since nearly all of your major cities are coastal and had individual undersea cables connecting them to the global internet, no one bothered to build direct land backbones between them until relatively recently so all internet infrastructure had to be built out from those cities through smaller connections called "backhauls" (stop me if you've heard this before), which can usually only handle the traffic of the one location it's going and can't easily be built out farther.

As to why no one has built it before, in the US the backbone started as connections between universities.

Image

and exploded out from there:

Image

Maybe the answer is for your universities to step up.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Dominus Atheos wrote:Maybe the answer is for your universities to step up.
:lol:
mr friendly guy wrote:Unfortunately I moved into my house while the politicians were still talking about the NBN, ie years ago. Its still being rolled out, so its not like I could have predicted where they would have put the fibre location when deciding where to buy. That being said since I live in a metro area, I should get decent speeds. However if its not much more faster than what I have now, its most probably not worth it.
I live in a major metro area, across from an exchange, and and I still get bad speeds. Thankfully the LNP has assured us that Australians don't want fast internet.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The original plan was to have FTTP in metro and suburban areas. That was discarded in the name of politics in some deluded attempt to reduce government spending. In the meantime, the Australian government is attempting to claw back every cent possible in benefits with the most naïve data matching system you can imagine, the cost of housing has skyrocketed in the two major metropolitan areas and NSW wants to sell off extremely valuable public infrastructure to fund sports stadiums.

There's going to be a major political price to pay for all this. Some of these problems are more long-term than others, but every year that interest will compound.

But I digress...
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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In the metropolitan areas in Australia, what kind of real life speeds can be obtained in the current infrastructure? Reason I'm asking is even with my badly configured and underperforming fibre home broadband in S'pore, I can count on attaining speeds of at least 140MBps, sometimes well in excess of 200MBps, on 5.0GHz Wifi.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Danny Bhoy wrote:In the metropolitan areas in Australia, what kind of real life speeds can be obtained in the current infrastructure? Reason I'm asking is even with my badly configured and underperforming fibre home broadband in S'pore, I can count on attaining speeds of at least 140MBps, sometimes well in excess of 200MBps, on 5.0GHz Wifi.
I just did an internet speed test, and here's the result:

Download: 16.9 Mbps
Upload: 0.81 Mbps
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Gandalf wrote:
Danny Bhoy wrote:In the metropolitan areas in Australia, what kind of real life speeds can be obtained in the current infrastructure? Reason I'm asking is even with my badly configured and underperforming fibre home broadband in S'pore, I can count on attaining speeds of at least 140MBps, sometimes well in excess of 200MBps, on 5.0GHz Wifi.
I just did an internet speed test, and here's the result:

Download: 16.9 Mbps
Upload: 0.81 Mbps
That's horrific. I haven't seen numbers like that since living in Paris (ADSL) and even then the upload was usually in the single digits Mbps. Spoilt rotten by fibre in the past 1.5 years. And the costs of broadband access is shocking in Oz. Can't believe it's cheaper in S'pore.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The Australian government believes the future is controversial and contends that it may, in fact, not exist. So they focus on the now. As long as they decline to interfere in business now, cut public spending now, sell public assets to gain cash now, ensure that home prices increase now whatever problems these policies may incur further down the road is not a concern.

Australia's Internet problems will eventually be fixed. Just as soon as they become a big enough problem in the now. This may take a while and you will need to spend a shit ton more money trying to fix them, but that's not now. So it's all good so far as they're concerned. For now.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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*cough* For once I get to say suck it mainland. Because Tas was essentially the 'test case' we pretty much all got access to FTTP or fixed wireless.

I'm in a bad location with a 25/5 connection and get 18/4.5 Previous residence we ran a 100/40 and routinely got 90+/30+


In all honesty though it did create a new division in real estate where 'NBN connected' became a new way of saying "just add 10%" to the purchase/rental cost of a property. A lot less noticeable now that practically everyone (who wants it) has NBN.

The limitations of high speed internet via few undersea cables was amply demonstrated when Basslink failed and dropped a reasonable percentage of net users to low speeds. The downside of living on an island, off an island far away from all other net connected land.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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I don't live in a metro area, yet I got a fiber cable all the way into my house, 52/38 Mpbs. Yay Finland
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The_Saint wrote:*cough* For once I get to say suck it mainland. Because Tas was essentially the 'test case' we pretty much all got access to FTTP or fixed wireless.
There were a few regions that were lucky to be part of the first release. Tamworth was also one of them.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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His Divine Shadow wrote:I don't live in a metro area, yet I got a fiber cable all the way into my house, 52/38 Mpbs. Yay Finland
Honestly that's pretty underwhelming for fibre. I mean, there has never been a fibre ethernet standard that slow, the very first one was 100BASE-FX (100 Mbit) from 1995. Any slower than that and there isn't really any advantage over copper.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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With HDS's distance from the exchange, there is very likely a fair difference. His speed limitation is probably based on his subscription rather than any physical limitation.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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Starglider wrote: Honestly that's pretty underwhelming for fibre. I mean, there has never been a fibre ethernet standard that slow, the very first one was 100BASE-FX (100 Mbit) from 1995. Any slower than that and there isn't really any advantage over copper.
10BASE-FL was a thing in the mid '90s too. My High School for some reason was 100% fiber and there were fiber-> AUI transceivers everywhere. Fiber does beat copper on raw distance, even at low speeds.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The Jester wrote:With HDS's distance from the exchange, there is very likely a fair difference. His speed limitation is probably based on his subscription rather than any physical limitation.
Yeah this, I got more than I need now so why pay for more?
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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For the NBN here its not just distance from the nodes, its congestion at the POIs. Couple of the guys at my work signed up for 100/40 plans and get that at 4am... but when its evening and everyone is online they're lucky to get 5mbps down.

I'm personally with one of the minor fixed wireless ISPs and whilst its only 30mbps down I get that pretty rock solid any time of day. I've no plans on changing to NBN when it hits my area.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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That's not an issue with NBNco though, that's an issue with their service provider under provisioning their back haul from the POI. All ISPs do this to an extent, the only real way to guarantee your minimum throughput is to purchase a business grade symmetrical service, but the extent to which they do it varies. iiNet back in the day were supposedly fairly good, they allocated a minimum amount of bandwidth per customer connected to a POI whereas TPG supposedly has a critical mass of complaints they wait for from customers on a POI before they order more bandwidth.

Now, the ACCC caused a whole bunch of problems when they listened to the large carriers (including the sainted iiNet) and ruled the NBN should have the 121 POIs the big players wanted rather than the 14 NBNco initially proposed. In doing so they effectively killed the small ISP and accelerated the race to the bottom the industry already was. That said this is the same body that took years to stop Telstra from charging higher rates at wholesale to other ISPs for access tails than it was to it's own retail customers for complete ADSL services so that was about as good as we could expect.

There was actually, way back when the NBN was first proposed a fairly interesting debate among the telco industry as to the best way to go. Should the NBN be about building more/better international transit links and backbone, or should it look at replacing the last hop connections. Ultimately they went with the last hop, in no small part because while the international links and backbone could be better they are at least functional, where as the old Telstra copper network was rapidly becoming not. I actually agree with the decision as realistically there are more commercial reasons for private enterprise to improve the backbone links than there are for them to try to fight Telstras access monopoly and inevitably lose. Of course now they're going to privatise the whole thing anyway and they've paid $11 billion for rotten copper that they aren't even replacing so the whole fucking thing was just an exercise in futility.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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atg wrote:For the NBN here its not just distance from the nodes, its congestion at the POIs. Couple of the guys at my work signed up for 100/40 plans and get that at 4am... but when its evening and everyone is online they're lucky to get 5mbps down.

I'm personally with one of the minor fixed wireless ISPs and whilst its only 30mbps down I get that pretty rock solid any time of day. I've no plans on changing to NBN when it hits my area.
Wait. You're on NBN Fixed Wireless near Adelaide? I wonder how they resolved that issue...
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The Jester wrote:
atg wrote:For the NBN here its not just distance from the nodes, its congestion at the POIs. Couple of the guys at my work signed up for 100/40 plans and get that at 4am... but when its evening and everyone is online they're lucky to get 5mbps down.

I'm personally with one of the minor fixed wireless ISPs and whilst its only 30mbps down I get that pretty rock solid any time of day. I've no plans on changing to NBN when it hits my area.
Wait. You're on NBN Fixed Wireless near Adelaide? I wonder how they resolved that issue...
No I'm with Nuskope - they run their own fixed wireless network separate from the NBN. There are a couple others like Uniti Wireless as well.

What issue was their with the NBN fixed wireless?
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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atg wrote:What issue was their with the NBN fixed wireless?
Spectrum. Optus own 2.3 GHz around Adelaide, NBN outside.
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Re: Australia's NBN problem

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The Jester wrote:
atg wrote:What issue was their with the NBN fixed wireless?
Spectrum. Optus own 2.3 GHz around Adelaide, NBN outside.
AFAIK Nuskope are using unlicensed 2.4 and 5Ghz so they wouldn't have that issue (Ubiquity equipment). Not sure if their newer equipment still uses those freqs.
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