Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Thanas »

Tribble wrote:There already are three different groups who are affected by policies in one way or another. If the EFTA, EEA and EU were unable to effectively communicate they would have never been able to form in the first place.
Look at the structures of the European Union and the number of people they employ. You propose tripling that number. Not to mention the infighting over who would be responsible for what....I can't see this being efficient at all.
What exactly are you suggesting? What would your ideal set of major reforms be?
Well, my opinion has always been that the European parliament should get more powers and that the EU should integrate further. But that option has been rejected, so honestly I do not know how the EU can reform in its current state.All I know is that more breakup will just cause the demise of the Union.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Look at the structures of the European Union and the number of people they employ. You propose tripling that number. Not to mention the infighting over who would be responsible for what....I can't see this being efficient at all.
If the EU becomes a full nation state I don't see why this wouldn't work as responsibilities would just shift over. Why are you against the idea of allowing EEA /AFTA members the ability to influence polices that effect them?

Note that I was asked what would my ideal overhauls be, and a complete overhaul of the structures of the EU would be one of them.
Well, my opinion has always been that the European parliament should get more powers and that the EU should integrate further. But that option has been rejected, so honestly I do not know how the EU can reform in its current state.All I know is that more breakup will just cause the demise of the Union.
To be fair, I was specifically asked what my ideal set of reformations would be, not what was realistically going to happen. We all know that the EU is effectively dead when it comes to needed reforms.

This raises an interesting point: the European Union's primary purpose is to bring peace and prosperity to Europe. If it is failing to meet those objectives and it is unable / refuses to make the reforms necessary to meet those objectives, is the EU necessarily a good thing? Is having a union for the sake of having a union a sufficient reason for the EU's existence?
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Tribble »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Well the Supreme Court has other ideas:

Government loses legal challenge on Brexit triggering process
As I stated earlier, this is not surprising: the UK's entry into the EU was done via parliament, and only parliament can revoke it. I don't think that's going to change whether or not the UK leaves the EU, though it may have an influence whether or not it is a "hard" or "soft" Brexit.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Tribble wrote:If the EU becomes a full nation state I don't see why this wouldn't work as responsibilities would just shift over. Why are you against the idea of allowing EEA /AFTA members the ability to influence polices that effect them?
Because it would lead to a cake scenario where everybody got to pick and chose, which would effectively leave a few nations to carry all the burdens while everybody else enjoys the benefits only. A union is not a pick and choose menu.
This raises an interesting point: the European Union's primary purpose is to bring peace and prosperity to Europe. If it is failing to meet those objectives and it is unable / refuses to make the reforms necessary to meet those objectives, is the EU necessarily a good thing? Is having a union for the sake of having a union a sufficient reason for the EU's existence?

The Union has been very successful in creating peace in Europe and anybody who says otherwise is an ignoramus of the highest caliber. And just because a few member states like Britain are irresponsible egoistic dickheads does not mean you sacrifice the structure that is holding back even more of them. Honestly that may be the most mentally challenged statement I have seen. It is akin to the proposal that one should disband the police force because there are a few robbers, instead of going after the robbers.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Flagg »

Thanas wrote:
Tribble wrote:If the EU becomes a full nation state I don't see why this wouldn't work as responsibilities would just shift over. Why are you against the idea of allowing EEA /AFTA members the ability to influence polices that effect them?
Because it would lead to a cake scenario where everybody got to pick and chose, which would effectively leave a few nations to carry all the burdens while everybody else enjoys the benefits only. A union is not a pick and choose menu.
This raises an interesting point: the European Union's primary purpose is to bring peace and prosperity to Europe. If it is failing to meet those objectives and it is unable / refuses to make the reforms necessary to meet those objectives, is the EU necessarily a good thing? Is having a union for the sake of having a union a sufficient reason for the EU's existence?

The Union has been very successful in creating peace in Europe and anybody who says otherwise is an ignoramus of the highest caliber. And just because a few member states like Britain are irresponsible egoistic dickheads does not mean you sacrifice the structure that is holding back even more of them. Honestly that may be the most mentally challenged statement I have seen. It is akin to the proposal that one should disband the police force because there are a few robbers, instead of going after the robbers.
I'm pretty ignorant of the organizational and economic structure of the EU, but why wasn't the United Kockdom using the Euro?
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Flagg wrote: I'm pretty ignorant of the organizational and economic structure of the EU, but why wasn't the United Kockdom using the Euro?
Mostly because it didn't want to. It would *accept* the Euro (IIRC) though. Just wouldn't make it their own currency.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Many nations weren't using the Euro and were better off that way.

The Euro has been a total disaster for Southern Europe. This has been explored in many threads here already.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Flagg »

K. A. Pital wrote:Many nations weren't using the Euro and were better off that way.

The Euro has been a total disaster for Southern Europe. This has been explored in many threads here already.
Cool, I'll just search for those. Thanks.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Because it would lead to a cake scenario where everybody got to pick and chose, which would effectively leave a few nations to carry all the burdens while everybody else enjoys the benefits only. A union is not a pick and choose menu.
.....? Sorry, for a moment I thought you honestly didn't understand how voting works, it took me a minute to realise that what you are implying is that every European country must eventually become a full member of the EU or have zero connection to Europe, no exceptions.

I take it you think it is perfectly acceptable (perhaps even desirable) that Non-EU countries in the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) effectively have no real representation when it comes to EEA matters which affect them. Because if you are not a full member of the EU, you shall obey all orders given to you verbatium without question! That will make you change your mind!

And then you wonder why people dare criticise the scheme as being little more than "Democracy via fax" :roll:
The Union has been very successful in creating peace in Europe and anybody who says otherwise is an ignoramus of the highest caliber.


While there is certainly a strong argument that the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community was a net benefit to Europe, I disagree with the notion that the European Union (aka the political / monetary integration project formed via the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 and greatly expanded in powers/ scope via the Lisbon Treaty in 2009) is responsible for "creating peace in Europe". In fact I would argue the exact opposite; the European Union, (and especially the Eurozone) have been nothing short of a disaster for Europe. And far from creating peace and prosperity it is largely responsible for the mass unemployment, mass poverty and the rise of ultra nationalism that it was allegedly designed to prevent.

Again, IMO the EU expanded too fast too quickly while at the same time it failed to establish the political and economic structures needed to sustain itself. Had the EU, say, stuck to the original members of the European Coal and Steel Community and tried to form a complete nation state with them before carefully expanding, it might have worked.

And just because a few member states like Britain are irresponsible egoistic dickheadsdoes not mean you sacrifice the structure that is holding back even more of them.
Careful pot, you just accused the kettle of being black. If you want to go into the blame game there is plenty of that to go around, and Germany is just as much a part of the problem as everyone else. I don't think there is a sole cause for the EU's woes.
Honestly that may be the most mentally challenged statement I have seen. It is akin to the proposal that one should disband the police force because there are a few robbers, instead of going after the robbers.
If one assumes that the European Union and Eurozone have been a success, which I do not (though I believe that the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community were largely successful).

IMO the European Union and Eurozone in their present form have caused more problems than they have solved, are inherently unstable and are very difficult if not impossible to reform in a meaningful way, which is a terrible combination. Unless things change and there is a massive overhaul at this point I think some form of collapse is inevitable.

It's more akin to your house being built on shaky foundations and very shoddy workmanship, and as the house starts falling apart the question is whether or not its better to try and repair it or level it and start afresh. IMO if the European Union is willing to undertake the big reforms necessary for its survival (such as becoming a true nation state, having a formal fiscal transfer system, creating democratic legitimacy in its legislature /executive branches etc) then its probably salvageable. If not then I don't see how its going to last long-term and IMO it's better to start planning for a new house then waiting until the existing one comes crashing down.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Flagg wrote:
K. A. Pital wrote:Many nations weren't using the Euro and were better off that way.

The Euro has been a total disaster for Southern Europe. This has been explored in many threads here already.
Cool, I'll just search for those. Thanks.
Feel free to take a look at other threads, but in a nutshell:

The economies, cultures and political / social structures of the countries in the Eurozone are not at all the same, which makes a currency union a major challenge. Northern Europe and Southern Europe are pretty far apart in a lot of respects, yet they share the same currency. Normally the currencies would fluctuate with the countries' economies, but that is no longer the case. Because of the shared currency Southern Europe's currency is much higher than it would be under normal circumstances, which makes it uncompetitive.


Basically the Eurozone is in a situation where (for various reasons) it is very difficult for Southern Europe to be competitive compared to Northern Europe, while Northern Europe only remains competitive because Southern Europe keeps its currency lower than it otherwise would be. This isn't necessarily good news for Northern Europeans either as in order for them to remain competitive compared to their Southern neighbours they have been forced to put major lid on wage growth, which is why you have seen little of that over the past couple of decades.

Combine that with the lack of a formal fiscal transfer system (where parts of currency union which are doing poorly would receive transfers from parts that were doing well) in order to help balances things, and it should become apparent why the Eurozone is not doing well.

Now, a lot of this could be resolved by putting in a formal fiscal transfer system in place instead of bailouts and/or dividing the Euro into a "Northern Euro" and "Southern" Euro. However, in"have" countries are opposed to the former because they feel (with some justification) that they shouldn't be subsidising "have not" countries spending habits, while the ladder apparently goes the concept of having a single unified Europe, regardless of costs. Hence the lack of progress and stagnation on this front.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Flagg »

Tribble wrote:
Flagg wrote:
K. A. Pital wrote:Many nations weren't using the Euro and were better off that way.

The Euro has been a total disaster for Southern Europe. This has been explored in many threads here already.
Cool, I'll just search for those. Thanks.
Feel free to take a look at other threads, but in a nutshell:

The economies, cultures and political / social structures of the countries in the Eurozone are not at all the same, which makes a currency union a major challenge. Northern Europe and Southern Europe are pretty far apart in a lot of respects, yet they share the same currency. Normally the currencies would fluctuate with the countries' economies, but that is no longer the case. Because of the shared currency Southern Europe's currency is much higher than it would be under normal circumstances, which makes it uncompetitive.


Basically the Eurozone is in a situation where (for various reasons) it is very difficult for Southern Europe to be competitive compared to Northern Europe, while Northern Europe only remains competitive because Southern Europe keeps its currency lower than it otherwise would be. This isn't necessarily good news for Northern Europeans either as in order for them to remain competitive compared to their Southern neighbours they have been forced to put major lid on wage growth, which is why you have seen little of that over the past couple of decades.

Combine that with the lack of a formal fiscal transfer system (where parts of currency union which are doing poorly would receive transfers from parts that were doing well) in order to help balances things, and it should become apparent why the Eurozone is not doing well.

Now, a lot of this could be resolved by putting in a formal fiscal transfer system in place instead of bailouts and/or dividing the Euro into a "Northern Euro" and "Southern" Euro. However, in"have" countries are opposed to the former because they feel (with some justification) that they shouldn't be subsidising "have not" countries spending habits, while the ladder apparently goes the concept of having a single unified Europe, regardless of costs. Hence the lack of progress and stagnation on this front.
Thanks. It sounds like a total clusterfuck. So, the usual. :lol:
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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K. A. Pital wrote:Many nations weren't using the Euro and were better off that way.

The Euro has been a total disaster for Southern Europe. This has been explored in many threads here already.
Also a total disaster for Finland, we are definitely northern europe but we're in teh same situation as southern europe, the euro is overvalued for our economy. I don't know anyone but Germany who can say the euro works for them. The weaker economies drive down the euros worth, but Germany drives it up. It ends up in Germanys favor with an undervalued currency and export oriented economy.

And that's really just the tip of the iceberg. Mark Blyth is really the best guy to read on why the euro is basically a doomsday machine.

Basically if you wanna keep the euro you gotta start shoveling money from germany to other countries, but right now it's really a having your cake and eating it too situation for germany, while the EU still lasts anyway... I really believe the EU would probably be stable today, for all it's neoliberal loathsomeness, if the euro had never been implemented.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Tribble wrote:.....? Sorry, for a moment I thought you honestly didn't understand how voting works, it took me a minute to realise that what you are implying is that every European country must eventually become a full member of the EU or have zero connection to Europe, no exceptions.
Nope, they are perfectly able to secure free trade and free movement agreements with Europe as much as they desire. What they don't get is a vote in laws.
I take it you think it is perfectly acceptable (perhaps even desirable) that Non-EU countries in the EEA (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) effectively have no real representation when it comes to EEA matters which affect them. Because if you are not a full member of the EU, you shall obey all orders given to you verbatium without question! That will make you change your mind!
I do think it right and proper that if you want access to a market you adhere to the rules of the market without getting a say in what those rules are, yes. Does Canada allow the USA a vote on its laws?
While there is certainly a strong argument that the European Coal and Steel Community and the European Economic Community was a net benefit to Europe, I disagree with the notion that the European Union (aka the political / monetary integration project formed via the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 and greatly expanded in powers/ scope via the Lisbon Treaty in 2009) is responsible for "creating peace in Europe".
If you think it did not then you are perfectly entittled to your opinion. However it is quite telling that the balkan countries are scrambling to get into the EU.
Careful pot, you just accused the kettle of being black. If you want to go into the blame game there is plenty of that to go around, and Germany is just as much a part of the problem as everyone else. I don't think there is a sole cause for the EU's woes.
There is never a single factor for every problem, however the fact remains that Britain does constitute a singular problem as both political parties over there have outright misrepresented the EU. When was the last time a British politician took care to educate the public about the benefits of the EU before the referendum? Maybe Blair?
It's more akin to your house being built on shaky foundations and very shoddy workmanship, and as the house starts falling apart the question is whether or not its better to try and repair it or level it and start afresh. IMO if the European Union is willing to undertake the big reforms necessary for its survival (such as becoming a true nation state, having a formal fiscal transfer system, creating democratic legitimacy in its legislature /executive branches etc) then its probably salvageable. If not then I don't see how its going to last long-term and IMO it's better to start planning for a new house then waiting until the existing one comes crashing down.

And what would that new house be? See the problem is that the EU is on paper a community of equals when it comes to treaty changes. How would you change this fundamental problem without infringing on the rights of sovereign states? And good luck getting states like Belgium and Denmark to give up their own rights for the sake of a faster-moving Europe. Do you think they should give up those rights?

Because it pretty much looks like you have no idea on how to compel those nations to give up their sovereign rights for the sake of faster progress and reforms...but you have no idea how to do so and thus any "new" structure would look just like the old EU.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

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Nope, they are perfectly able to secure free trade and free movement agreements with Europe as much as they desire. What they don't get is a vote in laws.
I do think it right and proper that if you want access to a market you adhere to the rules of the market without getting a say in what those rules are, yes. Does Canada allow the USA a vote on its laws?
Given that the USA and Canada are far less politically and economically integrated than the EEA, that's non-sequitur. While there is generally a free movement of goods (within the confines of NAFTA), there is no free movement of persons, services and capital.

For example if there was some kind of "free movement of people" agreement between the USA and Canada down the road, your damn right I'd expect the US to have a say on Canada's immigration laws and vice-versa since the two would in effect be largely one and the same.

This is where you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion since from my perspective its the EEA which is the market, not the EU (EU members are automatically part of the EEA, not the other way around). All EEA members should have the right to vote on EEA laws (not all EU laws of course). "Democracy by fax" is not the way to go if you want to have a good long term relationship with non-EU members. Unless of course the goal is to arm-twist non-EU members by limiting their influence as much as possible until they join.
If you think it did not then you are perfectly entittled to your opinion. However it is quite telling that the balkan countries are scrambling to get into the EU.
Great, just what the EU needs, more expansion!

There is never a single factor for every problem, however the fact remains that Britain does constitute a singular problem as both political parties over there have outright misrepresented the EU. When was the last time a British politician took care to educate the public about the benefits of the EU before the referendum? Maybe Blair?
That's certainly a problem, and there are benefits to being in the EU (though IMO the benefits so far outweigh the drawbacks). If the goal of the parties was to stay in the EU it didn't help matters that instead of talking about positives they mostly focused on "Project Fear," which given the overall culture over there was more or less guaranteed to backfire.
And what would that new house be? See the problem is that the EU is on paper a community of equals when it comes to treaty changes. How would you change this fundamental problem without infringing on the rights of sovereign states? And good luck getting states like Belgium and Denmark to give up their own rights for the sake of a faster-moving Europe. Do you think they should give up those rights?

They absolutely should give up some of their sovereign rights if their goal is to maintain the European Union. You know as well as I do that the current state of affairs was only supposed to be a transitional stage before closer integration, and that things have stalled. Right now the EU is in a somewhat similar situation to the USA under the Articles of Confederation, it's unworkable. However unlike the USA, while EU members seem to recognize this problem they refuse to do anything about it.
Because it pretty much looks like you have no idea on how to compel those nations to give up their sovereign rights for the sake of faster progress and reforms...but you have no idea how to do so and thus any "new" structure would look just like the old EU.
Which brings me back to my initial points, which are that the EU is simultaneously both too large in terms of membership and too small in terms of political / economic powers to succeed, and if there is a refusal to reform some form of collapse is likely.

Are there any countries in the EU which if given the opportunity would be willing to merge together to form a full federal republic? Would Germany and France be willing to, for instance?

If so, then the answer would be to have those countries merge together to form a new Federal Republic while the EU itself becomes more of a free-trade area. If the new Federal Republic is a success (and I don't see why it wouldn't be) then other nations may come to realise the benefits of giving up sovereignty to join. Basically it might be desirable to have a reset, only this time with a full Federal Republic (even if its initially only a couple of members) right from the beginning rather than the gradual "ever closer union" which does not appear to be panning out.

If on the other hand no European state for the foreseeable future is willing to give up enough sovereignty to form a full Federal Republic... then IMO the best option is to acknowledge that Europe just isn't ready to form a single nation and revert back to a European Economic Community type agreement rather than continue on with the EU, which IMO clearly isn't working.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Thanas »

Tribble wrote:Given that the USA and Canada are far less politically and economically integrated than the EEA, that's non-sequitur. While there is generally a free movement of goods (within the confines of NAFTA), there is no free movement of persons, services and capital.
Certainly, but the EU chose to make the rule that way. If people do not want access to the most lucrative market on the planet they can go without those rules.
This is where you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion since from my perspective its the EEA which is the market, not the EU (EU members are automatically part of the EEA, not the other way around). All EEA members should have the right to vote on EEA laws (not all EU laws of course). "Democracy by fax" is not the way to go if you want to have a good long term relationship with non-EU members.
What are EEA laws and what are EU laws in your opinion?
Unless of course the goal is to arm-twist non-EU members by limiting their influence as much as possible until they join.
No. The EU has done very little if any strongarming when it comes to people joining. For example Iceland wanted to join but then decided not to. Did they get strongarmed or face consequences? Nope.
If you think it did not then you are perfectly entittled to your opinion. However it is quite telling that the balkan countries are scrambling to get into the EU.
Great, just what the EU needs, more expansion!
The point still stands.

That's certainly a problem, and there are benefits to being in the EU (though IMO the benefits so far outweigh the drawbacks). If the goal of the parties was to stay in the EU it didn't help matters that instead of talking about positives they mostly focused on "Project Fear," which given the overall culture over there was more or less guaranteed to backfire.
Agreed.
They absolutely should give up some of their sovereign rights if their goal is to maintain the European Union. You know as well as I do that the current state of affairs was only supposed to be a transitional stage before closer integration, and that things have stalled. Right now the EU is in a somewhat similar situation to the USA under the Articles of Confederation, it's unworkable. However unlike the USA, while EU members seem to recognize this problem they refuse to do anything about it.
Not all but some are obviously set in their ways. How to change that?
Are there any countries in the EU which if given the opportunity would be willing to merge together to form a full federal republic? Would Germany and France be willing to, for instance?
5 years ago I would have said most likely in 30 years....now I am not so sure with the rise of populists in both nations.
If so, then the answer would be to have those countries merge together to form a new Federal Republic while the EU itself becomes more of a free-trade area. If the new Federal Republic is a success (and I don't see why it wouldn't be) then other nations may come to realise the benefits of giving up sovereignty to join. Basically it might be desirable to have a reset, only this time with a full Federal Republic (even if its initially only a couple of members) right from the beginning rather than the gradual "ever closer union" which does not appear to be panning out.

If on the other hand no European state for the foreseeable future is willing to give up enough sovereignty to form a full Federal Republic... then IMO the best option is to acknowledge that Europe just isn't ready to form a single nation and revert back to a European Economic Community type agreement rather than continue on with the EU, which IMO clearly isn't working.
I think the EU is working for about 90% of the people. It is IMO not worth it to scrap what has been a good success story because there is no way a similar project will arise if this one fails.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:I think the EU is working for about 90% of the people.
A very bold claim to make. After venturing a lot outside Germany, my opinion was solidified to be the exact opposite. It works for Germany and very few others.
Thanas wrote:It is IMO not worth it to scrap what has been a good success story because there is no way a similar project will arise if this one fails.
Even if nothing arises in its place, it does not mean the project was in vain - even if the whole thing collapses. It has shown what can be achieved, and what cannot. Future generations will use this to take some decisions of their own.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Thanas »

K. A. Pital wrote:
Thanas wrote:I think the EU is working for about 90% of the people.
A very bold claim to make. After venturing a lot outside Germany, my opinion was solidified to be the exact opposite. It works for Germany and very few others.
Do note that EU is not the Euro.
Even if nothing arises in its place, it does not mean the project was in vain - even if the whole thing collapses. It has shown what can be achieved, and what cannot. Future generations will use this to take some decisions of their own.
Nah. It will just create a whole lot of unnecessary bitterness.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Tribble »

Certainly, but the EU chose to make the rule that way. If people do not want access to the most lucrative market on the planet they can go without those rules.
Which is why I think it is undemocratic and unnecessary. The lack of a formal vote is pretty much the only thing that non-EU EEA members have an issue with, and I still fail to see why the EU deliberately chooses to keep it so.

What are EEA laws and what are EU laws in your opinion?
I stand corrected, after doing more research it appears that the EEA is more or less just the internal EU market rules minus democratic power for non-EU members. Not that I think this a good thing, and I still fail to see why the EU must insist it be this way, apart for egotistical reasons.
The point still stands.
Just because the political leaders (and perhaps a large segment of the population) desire to join, that doesn't mean that joining the EU will be beneficial. IMO that's just wishful thinking on their part, especially if they join the Eurozone. IIRC, joining the Eurozone is an eventual requirement as part of joining the EU, isn't it?
5 years ago I would have said most likely in 30 years....now I am not so sure with the rise of populists in both nations.
I think the EU is working for about 90% of the people. It is IMO not worth it to scrap what has been a good success story because there is no way a similar project will arise if this one fails.
Do note that EU is not the Euro.
So, from what I take out of it so far:

Forming a full nation state is impractical for the foreseeable future, despite the obvious necessity.

Maintaining the status quo (particularly the Eurozone) is impractical long-term. If you wish to debate the merits of the Euro-zone feel free, but IMO it's been a disaster for most nations, including Germany. Something is eventually going to give (likely more members leaving for one reason or another, bets are it will be a Eurozone country next like Greece).

There is a democratic deficit with the EU which has a negative impact on its legitimacy... with no real moves towards addressing it (aside from half-assed measures such as the political horse trading with the European Commission president).

Democratic legitimacy issues aside, if the goal is to maintain the EU in these circumstances the only realistic option is to have some controlled form of decentralization take place (especially with the Eurozone) so that national governments have the tools required to properly manage their affairs... which is also impractical given the current climate as it will look as though the EU project is being abandoned.

It looks as though the EU is just going to keep stumbling along from one crisis o the next for the foreseeable future... assuming it manages to survive said crises, of course.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Thanas »

Tribble wrote:Which is why I think it is undemocratic and unnecessary. The lack of a formal vote is pretty much the only thing that non-EU EEA members have an issue with, and I still fail to see why the EU deliberately chooses to keep it so.
Because they are enjoying the benefits without fully contributing to the club, so they get reduced rights. As in any other association in the world.

Just because the political leaders (and perhaps a large segment of the population) desire to join, that doesn't mean that joining the EU will be beneficial. IMO that's just wishful thinking on their part, especially if they join the Eurozone.
They think otherwise and considering the success of most nations in the Eurozone they have good reason to do so.

IIRC, joining the Eurozone is an eventual requirement as part of joining the EU, isn't it?
No.

So, from what I take out of it so far:

Forming a full nation state is impractical for the foreseeable future, despite the obvious necessity.
Correct.
Maintaining the status quo (particularly the Eurozone) is impractical long-term. If you wish to debate the merits of the Euro-zone feel free, but IMO it's been a disaster for most nations, including Germany. Something is eventually going to give (likely more members leaving for one reason or another, bets are it will be a Eurozone country next like Greece).
The problem is that is is somewhat impractical long-term, but IMO not impractical enough. Right now most member states are in the situation where they feel there is a good balance with giving up enough sovereignty and getting enough benefits out of it in return. There is not a single pressing issue that demands reform for most nations. Sure, they make noises, but no big-time national politician has come forward with a solution, mainly because they feel that the current situation works. This leads to ridiculous nonsense like during the refugee crisis but then again, that was not an existential crisis. The big problem is that people by and large get by, thus they get complacent. The left may bitch about the Euro but refuse to do anything about it. The populists are already on the "scrap the EU" side. The moderates are not too unhappy about the status quo to do anything about it.

And considering any reform to make the EU more democratic will naturally result in more powers for Germany and France you can see why many nations do not want reforms anyway. And of course Germany and France will not consent to any reform that places even more "unfair" burdens on them.

This is also why the idea of "lets get a federal republic first between the big states" will not solve anything because it is the same issue, the balancing between the small and big states.

There was a Franco-German inititative less than two years ago to reform the EU to make it more democratic. It resulted in nothing except a few newspaper articles precisely because of the issue of power balancing. Nationalists like the ones in power in Britain, Poland and Hungary will never consent to any kind of democratic reform of the EU because it would diminish their relative power.
Democratic legitimacy issues aside, if the goal is to maintain the EU in these circumstances the only realistic option is to have some controlled form of decentralization take place (especially with the Eurozone) so that national governments have the tools required to properly manage their affairs... which is also impractical given the current climate as it will look as though the EU project is being abandoned.
How much more decentralization can you even have? What could be further decentralized?
It looks as though the EU is just going to keep stumbling along from one crisis o the next for the foreseeable future... assuming it manages to survive said crises, of course.
I have no fear for the EU surviving this crisis, it has survived many more. This is just the typical swell of populism that happens in Europe every four or five years and then ebbs, only this time one nation was actually dumb enough to go through with what the biggest blowhards were shouting in the town square. I don't think this will be the end of the EU and I am willing to bet good money on it.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by madd0ct0r »

I think the natural state of the EU is lurching from crisis to crisis. It literally exists to improve upon the previous situaton, which was lurching from war to war. Europe is a wildly diverse area with enough complex feedback loops that the mid-term consequences of any plan are very unpredictable. Hence stop-start policy and lurching from crisis to crisis. A river is best crossed by feeling for one rock at a time...
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by BabelHuber »

Tribble wrote:The economies, cultures and political / social structures of the countries in the Eurozone are not at all the same, which makes a currency union a major challenge. Northern Europe and Southern Europe are pretty far apart in a lot of respects, yet they share the same currency. Normally the currencies would fluctuate with the countries' economies, but that is no longer the case. Because of the shared currency Southern Europe's currency is much higher than it would be under normal circumstances, which makes it uncompetitive.

Basically the Eurozone is in a situation where (for various reasons) it is very difficult for Southern Europe to be competitive compared to Northern Europe, while Northern Europe only remains competitive because Southern Europe keeps its currency lower than it otherwise would be. This isn't necessarily good news for Northern Europeans either as in order for them to remain competitive compared to their Southern neighbours they have been forced to put major lid on wage growth, which is why you have seen little of that over the past couple of decades.

Combine that with the lack of a formal fiscal transfer system (where parts of currency union which are doing poorly would receive transfers from parts that were doing well) in order to help balances things, and it should become apparent why the Eurozone is not doing well.
All of this is true. But nevertheless, I think a few points should be added:

1.) During the German reunification, the German chancellor Helmut Kohl made a deal with Francois Mitterand and Margaret Thatcher. In a nutshell, the concept was to embed Germany into the NATO and and into Europe. This was meant to ensure that the unified Germany cannot dominate Europe despite its economic strength.

Part of this was getting rid of the Deutsche Mark and switch to a common European currency.

To understand this, one must look at the 80ies: Back then, the Bundesbank (the German federal bank) only controlled its own currency, the DM. The central banks of the neigbouring countries were completely independent - in theory.

But as a matter of fact the Bundesbank controlled the "biggest" currency in Europe with the biggest domestic market. This had an influence on the other European currencies due to the sheer size of the German economy. As a consequence, the other European central banks had limited power over their own currencies.

For example, when the Bundesbank raised their key interest rate during the 80ies, the French central bank could hardly lower their interest rates at the same time and vice versa. The French Franc would lose a fight against the DM anyways.

So from the point of view of the French government a common currency would ensure that they have a word to say in this matter: A European central bank would have to take French interests into account, which was a concept alien to the Bundesbank (it only cared about the stability of the German currency by definition).

2.) The Euro was meant to be only a single step in the way to a closer European integration

Of course the European governments in the 90ies realized that a single currency without a single government is a doubtful concept. So the line of thought was that the Euro would automatically lead to a tighter integration of the EU's countries.

This failed, obviously.

3.) It is not easy to leave the Euro once you have it

If a country would leave the Euro, it would have to face side effects of this decision. Let's say a southern European country leaves the Euro because it wants to have a "weaker" currency.

Then the ECB would even be a bigger behemoth than the Bundesbank was back then. This would put a restriction on the "independency" of the new central bank.

Of course the new currency could (and would) devaluate, though. While this would create new jobs from a macroeconomic perspective, it also would make imports more expensive.
And this in turn means that people who were previously employed would have to spend more money on imported products - things like fuel, medicine, consumer goods etc. This would drive inflation, with all its negative side effects.

So I'd say that it'S not a given that the Southern European countries would benefit from leaving the Euro, at least not initially. Of course after a few years things will settle down. But at the beginning, this is no cakewalk.

So while I agree that the Euro is in effect a failure, it is not easy to get rid of it. Also, the reasons for introducing the Euro weren't all idiotic. It just did not develop as planned - Germany is still dominating the EU from an economic standpoint and the tighter integration also failed.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Thanas »

Oh and Tribble:
Currently, the EU is involved in free trade talks with around 60 countries, with CETA, the controversial deal with Canada, the furthest along. Then in March, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is coming to Brussels. The EU has been negotiating with Japan, the third largest economy in the world, since 2013 over a far-reaching market liberalization package. Now, Malmström hopes, the deal could soon be finalized.

Negotiations for a treaty with Vietnam have been completed; in South America, the EU is presenting itself as an alternative to the U.S.; and in February, a delegation from the European Parliament's International Trade Committee is heading for Mexico, Trump's favorite target. Europe has offered Mexico a new, comprehensive trade pact. "An entirely new dynamic in the negotiations can suddenly be felt," says Bernd Lange, head of the International Trade Committee in Brussels.
So....yeah.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by SCRawl »

I just had a look at this CETA, and while that involves getting off-topic, I wonder what it is about governments that they keep shoe-horning Investor-State dispute settlement mechanisms into trade agreements. Do they want to handcuff their own ability to enact policies that are in the best interest of their people? Or do they think that other countries won't be able to keep themselves from enacting policies whose primary purpose is to thwart the trade agreement itself?

On principle -- indeed, on practical considerations as well -- I oppose any agreement that puts limits on my government's ability to enact policies in good faith. And I suppose that means that I oppose CETA, no matter what else it has in it.
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Re: Brexit: UK to leave single market, says Theresa May

Post by Tribble »

I'll be breaking up my responses here...
Because they are enjoying the benefits without fully contributing to the club, so they get reduced rights. As in any other association in the world.
IIRC, Non-EU countries contribute proportionately to be budget the same amount as EU members do when it comes to EEA matters. EEA members should be allowed to vote on EU legislation which covers EEA matters, though I agree that they do not have a place at the table for EU legislation outside of that scope.

Just to clarify what the EEA covers:
c.Scope of the EEA
The EEA goes beyond traditional free trade agreements (FTAs) by extending the full rights and obligations of the EU’s internal market to the EFTA countries (with the exception of Switzerland). The EEA incorporates the four freedoms of the internal market (free movement of goods, people, services and capital) and related policies (competition, transport, energy, and economic and monetary cooperation). The agreement includes horizontal policies strictly related to the four freedoms: social policies (including health and safety at work, labour law and the equal treatment of men and women); policies on consumer protection, the environment, statistics and company law; and a number of flanking policies, such as those relating to research and technological development, which are not based on the EU acquis or legally binding acts, but are implemented through cooperation activities.
d.The limits of the EEA
The EEA Agreement does not establish binding provisions in all sectors of the internal market or in other policies under the EU Treaties. In particular, its binding provisions do not concern:
the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy (although the agreement contains provisions on trade in agricultural and fishery products);
the customs union;
the common trade policy;
the common foreign and security policy;
the field of justice and home affairs (although all the EFTA countries are part of the Schengen area); or
the economic and monetary union (EMU).
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourser ... 6.5.3.html

They think otherwise and considering the success of most nations in the Eurozone they have good reason to do so.
I'd love to see your arguments on why you feel the Euro has been a success, as apart from Germany and a couple of others "success" is not the word that comes to describe the Eurozone as a whole. Hell even Finland is starting to get screwed over by it apparently.
IIRC, joining the Eurozone is an eventual requirement as part of joining the EU, isn't it?


No.
You are about that?
Who can join and when?
All EU Member States , except Denmark and the United Kingdom, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria'.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-econ ... nd-when_en

It seems pretty clear to me that eventually all EU countries apart from Denmark and the UK are required to join once they meet the criteria to do so (IIRC UK is supposed to as well but refused to acknowldge that it meets the required conditions).
The problem is that is is somewhat impractical long-term, but IMO not impractical enough. Right now most member states are in the situation where they feel there is a good balance with giving up enough sovereignty and getting enough benefits out of it in return. There is not a single pressing issue that demands reform for most nations. Sure, they make noises, but no big-time national politician has come forward with a solution, mainly because they feel that the current situation works. This leads to ridiculous nonsense like during the refugee crisis but then again, that was not an existential crisis. The big problem is that people by and large get by, thus they get complacent. The left may bitch about the Euro but refuse to do anything about it. The populists are already on the "scrap the EU" side. The moderates are not too unhappy about the status quo to do anything about it.

And considering any reform to make the EU more democratic will naturally result in more powers for Germany and France you can see why many nations do not want reforms anyway. And of course Germany and France will not consent to any reform that places even more "unfair" burdens on them.

This is also why the idea of "lets get a federal republic first between the big states" will not solve anything because it is the same issue, the balancing between the small and big states.

There was a Franco-German inititative less than two years ago to reform the EU to make it more democratic. It resulted in nothing except a few newspaper articles precisely because of the issue of power balancing. Nationalists like the ones in power in Britain, Poland and Hungary will never consent to any kind of democratic reform of the EU because it would diminish their relative power.
And that's precisely the kind of attitude that's crippling the EU --> we need to reform, but we're not going to.

Where you and I disagree is that you seem to believe that the EU and Eurozone are stabile, while I believe it's not and eventually the balance will tip one way or another.

I certainly hope the EU survives and that you are correct, I just feel that you are mistaken on this point.
How much more decentralization can you even have? What could be further decentralized?
Revamping the Eurozone would be a good place to start as that's a cause of a lot of the economic instabilities. It's not going to happen until either there is closer integration or countries start leaving / get kicked out, but that's what should be done. The Eurozone should have only included a few countries at most instead of the 19 members it has now (and more as other EU members end up being required to join), especially without a formal fiscal transfer system in place.
I have no fear for the EU surviving this crisis, it has survived many more. This is just the typical swell of populism that happens in Europe every four or five years and then ebbs, only this time one nation was actually dumb enough to go through with what the biggest blowhards were shouting in the town square. I don't think this will be the end of the EU and I am willing to bet good money on it.
Again I hope you are right, but I don't see it that way.
I think the natural state of the EU is lurching from crisis to crisis. It literally exists to improve upon the previous situaton, which was lurching from war to war. Europe is a wildly diverse area with enough complex feedback loops that the mid-term consequences of any plan are very unpredictable. Hence stop-start policy and lurching from crisis to crisis. A river is best crossed by feeling for one rock at a time...
To use your river analogy, the EU decided to walk halfway across the river then stop. Standing in the middle of a river is not a good thing to do, it's been fortunate to maintain it's footing so far, but IMO eventually there comes a point in time where you msut either go forwards or backwards or risk being swept away.
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