Western media whines about fake news

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Western media whines about fake news

Post by mr friendly guy »

I am going to use a Washington post article, but its not just them. CNN has also complained about fake news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... story.html
Business
Russian propaganda effort helped spread ‘fake news’ during election, experts say

By Craig Timberg November 24
The flood of “fake news” this election season got support from a sophisticated Russian propaganda campaign that created and spread misleading articles online with the goal of punishing Democrat Hillary Clinton, helping Republican Donald Trump and undermining faith in American democracy, say independent researchers who tracked the operation.

Russia’s increasingly sophisticated propaganda machinery — including thousands of botnets, teams of paid human “trolls,” and networks of websites and social-media accounts — echoed and amplified right-wing sites across the Internet as they portrayed Clinton as a criminal hiding potentially fatal health problems and preparing to hand control of the nation to a shadowy cabal of global financiers. The effort also sought to heighten the appearance of international tensions and promote fear of looming hostilities with nuclear-armed Russia.

Two teams of independent researchers found that the Russians exploited American-made technology platforms to attack U.S. democracy at a particularly vulnerable moment, as an insurgent candidate harnessed a wide range of grievances to claim the White House. The sophistication of the Russian tactics may complicate efforts by Facebook and Google to crack down on “fake news,” as they have vowed to do after widespread complaints about the problem.

There is no way to know whether the Russian campaign proved decisive in electing Trump, but researchers portray it as part of a broadly effective strategy of sowing distrust in U.S. democracy and its leaders. The tactics included penetrating the computers of election officials in several states and releasing troves of hacked emails that embarrassed Clinton in the final months of her campaign.

“They want to essentially erode faith in the U.S. government or U.S. government interests,” said Clint Watts, a fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute who along with two other researchers has tracked Russian propaganda since 2014. “This was their standard mode during the Cold War. The problem is that this was hard to do before social media.”

Watts’s report on this work, with colleagues Andrew Weisburd and J.M. Berger, appeared on the national security online magazine War on the Rocks this month under the headline “Trolling for Trump: How Russia Is Trying to Destroy Our Democracy.” Another group, called PropOrNot, a nonpartisan collection of researchers with foreign policy, military and technology backgrounds, planned to release its own findings Friday showing the startling reach and effectiveness of Russian propaganda campaigns.

The researchers used Internet analytics tools to trace the origins of particular tweets and mapped the connections among social-media accounts that consistently delivered synchronized messages. Identifying website codes sometimes revealed common ownership. In other cases, exact phrases or sentences were echoed by sites and social-media accounts in rapid succession, signaling membership in connected networks controlled by a single entity.

PropOrNot’s monitoring report, which was provided to The Washington Post in advance of its public release, identifies more than 200 websites as routine peddlers of Russian propaganda during the election season, with combined audiences of at least 15 million Americans. On Facebook, PropOrNot estimates that stories planted or promoted by the disinformation campaign were viewed more than 213 million times.

[Could better Internet security have prevented Trump’s win?]

Some players in this online echo chamber were knowingly part of the propaganda campaign, the researchers concluded, while others were “useful idiots” — a term born of the Cold War to describe people or institutions that unknowingly assisted Soviet Union propaganda efforts.

The Russian campaign during this election season, researchers from both groups say, worked by harnessing the online world’s fascination with “buzzy” content that is surprising and emotionally potent, and tracks with popular conspiracy theories about how secret forces dictate world events.

Some of these stories originated with RT and Sputnik, state-funded Russian information services that mimic the style and tone of independent news organizations yet sometimes include false and misleading stories in their reports, the researchers say. On other occasions, RT, Sputnik and other Russian sites used social-media accounts to amplify misleading stories already circulating online, causing news algorithms to identify them as “trending” topics that sometimes prompted coverage from mainstream American news organizations.

The speed and coordination of these efforts allowed Russian-backed phony news to outcompete traditional news organizations for audience. Some of the first and most alarming tweets after Clinton fell ill at a Sept. 11 memorial event in New York, for example, came from Russian botnets and trolls, researchers found. (She was treated for pneumonia and returned to the campaign trail a few days later.)

This followed a spate of other misleading stories in August about Clinton’s supposedly troubled health. The Daily Beast debunked a particularly widely read piece in an article that reached 1,700 Facebook accounts and was read online more than 30,000 times. But the PropOrNot researchers found that the version supported by Russian propaganda reached 90,000 Facebook accounts and was read more than 8 million times. The researchers said the true Daily Beast story was like “shouting into a hurricane” of false stories supported by the Russians.

This propaganda machinery also helped push the phony story that an anti-Trump protester was paid thousands of dollars to participate in demonstrations, an allegation initially made by a self-described satirist and later repeated publicly by the Trump campaign. Researchers from both groups traced a variety of other false stories — fake reports of a coup launched at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey and stories about how the United States was going to conduct a military attack and blame it on Russia — to Russian propaganda efforts.

[Facebook fake-news writer: ‘I think Donald Trump is in the White House because of me’]

The final weeks of the campaign featured a heavy dose of stories about supposed election irregularities, allegations of vote-rigging and the potential for Election Day violence should Clinton win, researchers said.

“The way that this propaganda apparatus supported Trump was equivalent to some massive amount of a media buy,” said the executive director of PropOrNot, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid being targeted by Russia’s legions of skilled hackers. “It was like Russia was running a super PAC for Trump’s campaign. . . . It worked.”

He and other researchers expressed concern that the U.S. government has few tools for detecting or combating foreign propaganda. They expressed hope that their research detailing the power of Russian propaganda would spur official action.

A former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Michael A. McFaul, said he was struck by the overt support that Sputnik expressed for Trump during the campaign, even using the #CrookedHillary hashtag pushed by the candidate.

McFaul said Russian propaganda typically is aimed at weakening opponents and critics. Trump’s victory, though reportedly celebrated by Putin and his allies in Moscow, may have been an unexpected benefit of an operation that already had fueled division in the United States. “They don’t try to win the argument,” said McFaul, now director of the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University. “It’s to make everything seem relative. It’s kind of an appeal to cynicism.”

The Kremlin has repeatedly denied interfering in the U.S. election or hacking the accounts of election officials. “This is some sort of nonsense,” Dmitry Peskov, press secretary for Putin, said last month when U.S. officials accused Russia of penetrating the computers of the Democratic National Committee and other political organizations.

RT disputed the findings of the researchers in an e-mail on Friday, saying it played no role in producing or amplifying any fake news stories related to the U.S. election. “It is the height of irony that an article about “fake news” is built on false, unsubstantiated claims. RT adamantly rejects any and all claims and insuations that the network has originated even a single “fake story” related to the US election,” wrote Anna Belkina, head of communications.

The findings about the mechanics of Russian propaganda operations largely track previous research by the Rand Corp. and George Washington University’s Elliott School of International Affairs.

“They use our technologies and values against us to sow doubt,” said Robert Orttung, a GWU professor who studies Russia. “It’s starting to undermine our democratic system.”

The Rand report — which dubbed Russian propaganda efforts a “firehose of falsehood” because of their speed, power and relentlessness — traced the country’s current generation of online propaganda work to the 2008 incursion into neighboring Georgia, when Russia sought to blunt international criticism of its aggression by pushing alternative explanations online.

The same tactics, researchers said, helped Russia shape international opinions about its 2014 annexation of Crimea and its military intervention in Syria, which started last year. Russian propaganda operations also worked to promote the “Brexit” departure of Britain from the European Union.

Another crucial moment, several researchers say, came in 2011 when the party of Russian President Vladimir Putin was accused of rigging elections, sparking protests that Putin blamed the Obama administration — and then-Secretary of State Clinton — for instigating.

Putin, a former KGB officer, announced his desire to “break the Anglo-Saxon monopoly on the global information streams” during a 2013 visit to the broadcast center for RT, formerly known as Russia Today.

“For them, it’s actually a real war, an ideological war, this clash between two systems,” said Sufian Zhemukhov, a former Russian journalist conducting research at GWU. “In their minds, they’re just trying to do what the West does to Russia.”

RT broadcasts news reports worldwide in several languages, but the most effective way it reaches U.S. audiences is online.

Its English-language flagship YouTube channel, launched in 2007, has 1.85 million subscribers and has had a total of 1.8 billion views, making it more widely viewed than CNN’s YouTube channel, according to a George Washington University report this month.

Though widely seen as a propaganda organ, the Russian site has gained credibility with some American conservatives. Trump sat for an interview with RT in September. His nominee for national security adviser, retired Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, traveled to Russia last year for a gala sponsored by the network. He later compared it to CNN.

The content from Russian sites has offered ready fodder for U.S.-based websites pushing far-right conservative messages. A former contractor for one, the Next News Network, said he was instructed by the site’s founder, Gary S. Franchi Jr., to weave together reports from traditional sources such as the Associated Press and the Los Angeles Times with ones from RT, Sputnik and others that provided articles that often spread explosively online.

“The readers are more likely to share the fake stories, and they’re more profitable,” said Dyan Bermeo, who said he helped assemble scripts and book guests for Next News Network before leaving because of a pay dispute and concerns that “fake news” was crowding out real news.

In just the past 90 days — a period that has included the closing weeks of the campaign, Election Day and its aftermath — the YouTube audience of Next News Network has jumped from a few hundred thousand views a day to a few million, according to analytics firm Tubular Labs. In October alone, videos from Next News Network were viewed more than 56 million times.

Franchi said in an e-mail statement that Next News Network seeks “a global perspective” while providing commentary aimed at U.S. audiences, especially with regard to Russian military activity. “Understanding the threat of global war is the first step to preventing it,” he said, “and we feel our coverage assisted in preventing a possible World War 3 scenario.”

Correction: A previously published version of this story incorrectly stated that Russian information service RT had used the “#CrookedHillary” hastag pushed by then-Republican candidate Donald Trump. In fact, while another Russian information service Sputnik did use this hashtag, RT did not.
Ha ha ha ha. ROFL. :roll:

1. The irony of talking about fake news and then posting a correction to your own news article.

2. Double irony especially considering how much Western media distorts things about other countries. Although that varies between writers and outlets, but I know some China articles are so bullshit, if it was RT trying the same thing to a Western country it would be ridiculed. This of course makes me wonder how accurate are their critiques of other countries they don't like, such as Russia, where I don't know that much about it.

Edit - I can give examples on demand.

3. US news outlets have figured out something Australian high schools have known, at least since I did high school in the mid 90s. That media have their own agenda and you have to be careful about it. Even with journalists who my high school teacher liked, eg leftie journalist John Pilger, my English teacher would still teach us to analyse his work, go through the emotive language Pilger used, because no one is infallible. Its a shame a lot of Australian adults don't seem to have remembered this stuff.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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I remember when people used to consider RT a true "progressive" outlet. That seems like almost a decade ago...
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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I find this hilarious when the western "news" media has been repeatedly caught doctoring photos, video, and police reports to fit their desired narrative. After the shit they've fed us on various racially sensitive crimes, the political & financial situation in Greece, and a bunch of other things, I'd have a hard time believing them if they told me that water is wet.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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I bet you though, that a person might disbelieve what is said about Trump or Hilary, depending on their political persuasion, if the story was about Russia or China or <insert country here>, they might not question it. After all, our media is free and not government controlled. WMDs in Iraq anyone?
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by K. A. Pital »

Wait - they got played at their own game and now they are upset? Then there's no news here, I'm afraid. :D
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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http://www.bbc.com/news/38053324

Look like BBC is getting on the act about fake news. My irony meter just exploded. :lol:

Hey, remember when they said Beijing was deliberately covering up the fact that there were protests at the Olympic torch relay in London, and then it was found out the Chinese lack of broadcasting on that day was because they only had less than 30 minutes to edit a new show to showcase the protests, so they broadcast it the next day and BBC subsequently made a half arse apology. Those were the days when BBC actually was clever about its propaganda, because you actually have to think about the time difference between London and Beijing. Nowadays BBC's "journalists" aren't even trying.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by madd0ct0r »

could we merge this thread and the one about the chrome extension to identify 'fake' news? I just posted the backlash about the Post article to it, and don't want to double tap.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Honestly it *is* getting markedly worse, this fake news shit. Whether or not it is Russian-backed or just campaigns either inspired by Russian methodologies or using methodologies used by lots of shady folks that happen to include Russians... it is still, as the bork bork pupper doggo pages say, doing everyone a heckin' concern.

It's like a mutation of the shitty organic FoodBabe-style meme shit-info campaigns but for political ends. In the Philippines it is drowning the public consciousness in crap.

Sure, there's always been shitty conspiracy theories and shitty misconceptions but it is being weaponized and systematically used to a heretofore unseen degree. (Like, somehow someway the FoodBabe-style disinformation but in the political sphere, all these Alex Jones infowars and Brietbart crap, if they were ever organic to begin with, they ended up getting bought and used by the Karl Roves and Manaforts of today... or if they were always Koch Brothers style astroturf crap, they were upgraded or something...)

I wonder what the technological and methodological exchange or cross-pollination is like for these types, for their counterparts across the world. Is it just copy-cat stuff, bandwagoning, or do they interact formally behind closed doors? Like how Manafort, aside from helping Reagan campaign, also helped Marcos in the Philippines and worked for Ukrainian and Nigerian assholes and worked for Trump too...
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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I see it as transnational experience gathering, pretty much. You work for one asshole in one media space, then you move to another. But tactics and tricks stay the same. After a while, most media spaces are infected by the same disease.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Interview Highlights
Tell me a little about why you started Disinfomedia?

Late 2012, early 2013 I was spending a lot of time researching what is now being referred to as the alt-right. I identified a problem with the news that they were spreading and created Disinfomedia as a response to that. The whole idea from the start was to build a site that could infiltrate the echo chambers of the alt-right, publish blatantly false or fictional stories, and then be able to publicly denounce those stories and point out the fact that they were fiction.

What got you engaged in this?

My educational background is in political science. I’ve always enjoyed the ideas of propaganda and misinformation. Then I coupled that with an interest in what makes things go viral. So that led me to finding those groups and ultimately to finding contributors. But it was just something I had an interest in that I wanted to pursue.

When did you notice that fake news does best with Trump supporters?

Well this isn’t just a Trump supporter problem. This is a right-wing issue. Sarah Palin’s famous blasting of the lame-stream media is kind of record and testament to the rise of these kinds of people. The post-fact era is what I would refer to it as. This isn’t something that started with Trump. This is something that’s been in the works for a while. His whole campaign was this thing of discrediting mainstream media sources, which is one of those dog whistles to his supporters. When we were coming up with headlines it’s always kind of about the red meat. Trump really got into the red meat. He knew who his base was. He knew how to feed them a constant diet of this red meat.

We’ve tried to do similar things to liberals. It just has never worked, it never takes off. You’ll get debunked within the first two comments and then the whole thing just kind of fizzles out.

How many domains do you own and run?

Well, I would say there’s somewhere around 25 domains that I am currently managing. National Report has been my bread and butter, where I’ve spent most of my time. I have people who work with me and for me in developing and maintaining the other sites and social media kind of stuff. (Coler later said not all his sites are fake news.) So I, for the most part, focus on National Report, and a lot of the other stuff is run by other folks on the team.

So, you’re the publisher of an empire.

Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it an empire but, yes, it’s several sites (chuckle).

How many people do you have writing for you?

It comes and goes, and as for actual employed writers, again these guys sort of make their own money through ad code. So I don’t say, ‘Hey, you have to write 10 stories this week’ and this and that. Really, we have a more free-form idea where people, when their creativity strikes them, then they can write something. And if they’re in a slump then they just go dormant for a while. With that said, at any given time there’s probably 20, 25 contributors all over the country. …

Talk about the Denver Guardian.

Well, it’s kind of as a side project. We have some people working on next steps in the fake news industry, and that came from that whole discussion. We had purchased several domain names that sounded legitimate. … More local news sort of stories. The idea was to make the sites look as legit as possible so the home page is going to be local news and local forecast, local sports, some obituaries and things of that nature, and then the actual fake news stories were going to be buried off the homepage.

We’ve tried lots of things in the past. The dot-com dot co domains were something I toyed in for a while. Those I quickly got away from because you don’t get away long with borrowing someone’s copyright or trademark. That was something that worked very well from a fake news perspective. People were fooled into the domain name, but that wasn’t so much what we were after. So again, the next step was to go after more city-type sites. And the Denver Guardian was one of those sites.

You’re talking about the future of this (fake news business), which looks more insidious because it’s more real?

That’s the way that it’s going to be. Not just from where I am. I mean this is probably going to be my last run in the fake news biz, but I can promise you that it’s not going to go away. It’s even going to grow bigger and it’s going to be harder to identify as it kind of evolves through these steps. …

Do you know who wrote the actual FBI Clinton story?

I do know who wrote the story, but only through an anonymous pen name. Privacy is something that we take very seriously in our writers’ group. The actual reasonings behind that story … it’s one of hundreds that have been written about mysterious deaths of Clinton associates or political foes. This one kind of took off more than others, I believe, just because of the nature of the story. The people wanted to hear this. So all it took was to write that story. Everything about it was fictional. The town, the people, the sheriff, the FBI guy. Then, we had our social media guys kind of go out and do a little dropping it throughout Trump groups and Trump forums, and boy it spread like wildfire.

Why hide your identity?

This isn’t the safest business to be in, to be honest. Just the number of death threats I’ve received. I have a beautiful family, a beautiful life.

Some of these people that we … bait is probably the right word — are often — let’s call them the deplorables, right? They’re not the safest crowd. Some of them I would consider domestic terrorists. So they’re just not people that I want to be knocking on my door.

It seems like National Report is getting spoofier.

If you went to National Report today, it’s specifically satire. “Chris Christie nominated to Supreme Food Court.” “Sarah Palin Banning Muslims from Entering Bristol Palin.” They’re a little bit more offensive than some people care for their satire. I mean fat shaming and slut shaming isn’t something that is normally met with applause. But again, it’s a lot more fun in nature.

Do you make serious money?

It depends on what you would call serious money. I think I do pretty well.

Can you say how well?

I would rather not. There have been some people who have been reported on recently. The folks in Long Beach that were doing just all-right stuff. They were reporting $10,000 to $30,000 a month. I think that’s probably a relative ballpark.

So you’re doing as well as those?

Yes.

You’re making money through the ads?

Yes.

Who do you work with?

We have several advertisers. Google was one, although they shut down my account last week. We’ve replaced them with other advertisers.

Can I ask who?

There are literally hundreds of ad networks. Literally hundreds. Last week my inbox was just filled every day with people, because they knew that Google was cracking down — hundreds of people wanting to work with my sites. I kind of applaud Google for their steps, although I think what they’re doing is kind of random. They don’t really have a process in place for identifying these things. I happen to know a very successful site that, as of today, of this morning is still serving Google ads. So it seems to be a kind of arbitrary step that they’re taking either based on, I don’t know if it was my reputation within the industry or specifically the Denver Guardian site that angered them, or I don’t know what it is, but back to your question, there’s hundreds of people that will work with me.

What can be done about fake news?

Some of this has to fall on the readers themselves. The consumers of content have to be better at identifying this stuff. We have a whole nation of media-illiterate people. Really, there needs to be something done.

Do you consider yourself an entrepreneur?

Sure.

Are you one of the biggest in the fake news biz?

If you look at someone who has specifically sometimes peddled in fictional news, then I think that I would probably be considered one of the larger sites.

As a liberal, do you have any regrets?

I don’t. Again, this is something that I’ve been crying about for a while. But outside of that, there are many factors as to why Trump won that don’t involve fake news, right? As much as I like Hillary, she was a poor candidate. She brought in a lot of baggage.

You don’t feel responsible.

I do not.

Do you think you would have kept doing it if it wasn’t so lucrative?

Really the financial part of it isn’t the only motivator for me. I do enjoy making a mess of the people that share the content that comes out of our site. It’s not just the financial incentive for me. I still enjoy the game, I guess.

Would you do this all over again?

Well, I guess it came to a head here and we’re talking about it. It’ll be interesting to see what happens moving forward. If I had to, if I knew specifically the Denver Guardian situation, that would have been handled differently. But everything else, as far as the work I’ve done with National Report, I’m very proud of, and I’m going to continue doing it.

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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Simon_Jester »

I think there's a point at which the mainstream media is entitled to publish exposes and criticism of entire organizations that do nothing but make shit up.

Sure, they have a history of falsified or propagandized individual stories, or even issues. But the BBC and the Washington Post and so on... they do publish significant amounts of real news. They don't exist for the sole avowed purpose of publishing shit-stirring lies that get people riled up and make them

I mean, here we have a guy who claims to be a liberal, and seems to think Trump winning was a bad thing. And yet, he seems to have no remorse about publishing a completely fictional story "FBI Agent Suspected In Hillary Email Leaks Found Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide," a story that got half a million Facebook shares. Because the money is just great, man!

This guy is critting the hippos pretty goddamn hard. By comparison the Washington Post and the Beeb aren't even on the radar.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Lets take RT then. Sure its Putin tv, but its bias works by the stories it chooses to tell, ie a lot on the US and less on Russia. A lot of its stories are also true, even if we assume every story it tells about Russia is fake, it still also doesn't exist for the sole purpose of publishing lies to get people riled up. The Washington Post then can criticise some of these fake news sites who meet the criteria of publishing lies for the purpose of stirring people up. But then it fails when it tries the same to Russian news. As witnessed by the WaPo's own retraction in the opening passage.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

RT doesn't make shit up, yes. It's Assad apologism and Putin apologism is pretty shit, its editorial sections are full of that, but it isn't outright making things out of thin air.

It's like The Guardian, they're pretty left, their opinion pieces can be preposterous even by my own filthy standards, but fuck it if it's not winning Pulitzer Prizes by Snowdenings and revealing Chicago PD blacksites.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Simon_Jester »

mr friendly guy wrote:Lets take RT then. Sure its Putin tv, but its bias works by the stories it chooses to tell, ie a lot on the US and less on Russia. A lot of its stories are also true, even if we assume every story it tells about Russia is fake, it still also doesn't exist for the sole purpose of publishing lies to get people riled up. The Washington Post then can criticise some of these fake news sites who meet the criteria of publishing lies for the purpose of stirring people up. But then it fails when it tries the same to Russian news. As witnessed by the WaPo's own retraction in the opening passage.
I'm not entirely sure I see your point here.

What I'm saying is that I am disgusted by actual fake news groups, who deliberately create stories that are total fabrications, and who have little or no interest in even pretending to practice real journalism because that would require work. Where publishing a false story isn't just a common mistake due to incompetence that they fail to remedy... it's their business model.

Now compare this to a 'mainstream' outlet that has a problem with uncritically publishing propaganda, but at least gives a damn about facts most of the time. One that will publish retraction, and usually doesn't say things that are outright lies as opposed to mistakes or stupidity.

There's a huge difference between these two things.

Even if you want your news organization to have very high standards, this takes constant work and struggle. Some of the people you hire will be lazier or more ignorant than you would like. Some of the stories you publish will be poorly informed, or wrong. There is no practical way to avoid that reality. But there's a difference between an organization that at least honors the concept of being clean, that occasionally ends up in the mud but tries to wash off afterwards...

Versus an organization that just wallows in the mud and craps out filth and throws it at its enemies, explicitly for profit.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by mr friendly guy »

Simon_Jester wrote:
I'm not entirely sure I see your point here.

What I'm saying is that I am disgusted by actual fake news groups, who deliberately create stories that are total fabrications, and who have little or no interest in even pretending to practice real journalism because that would require work. Where publishing a false story isn't just a common mistake due to incompetence that they fail to remedy... it's their business model.

Now compare this to a 'mainstream' outlet that has a problem with uncritically publishing propaganda, but at least gives a damn about facts most of the time. One that will publish retraction, and usually doesn't say things that are outright lies as opposed to mistakes or stupidity.

There's a huge difference between these two things.

Even if you want your news organization to have very high standards, this takes constant work and struggle. Some of the people you hire will be lazier or more ignorant than you would like. Some of the stories you publish will be poorly informed, or wrong. There is no practical way to avoid that reality. But there's a difference between an organization that at least honors the concept of being clean, that occasionally ends up in the mud but tries to wash off afterwards...

Versus an organization that just wallows in the mud and craps out filth and throws it at its enemies, explicitly for profit.
I see your point, I just don't assign to it as much significance as you.

If I am led to believe <insert country here> sucks because blatant bias of mainstream media, how is that different from the POV of "end result" from me being led to believe Hilary sucks because of fake news site. The difference is, the former largely achieves its aim via selective interpretation of the facts (including outright ignoring inconvenient facts), whilst the other outright makes things up. I suppose its a different skill set, and one might need more skill to take the facts and twist them, rather than just make it up out of thin, but both are still deceptive. I am less interested in the HOW or the skill they need to deceive someone, only that they do.

You could also argue, they make retractions. Ok, but how many people will see the retraction vs the original story. How many people saw James Reynolds China bashing story broadcast on television that I discussed earlier, and saw the tiny BBC retraction online that they fucked up. Its not the same exposure, and this retraction was only because he was caught in a blatant lie. Numerous times, they get away without publishing retractions.

So I will admit this is something they do better than fake news site, but I don't believe it holds that much significance based on the above reasons.

You could argue mainstream media at least, maybe have their heart in the right place, however I am too cynical to buy that. They also make money from people reading their sites / newspapers/watch their shows. And even if they don't make that much, and they are driven by ideology to write the bullshit they churn out rather than money like the fake news site, again so what? Deception because of ideology doesn't make it better than deception because of greed.

Back to my original RT spiel. You could make a case that at least mainstream news, mostly tell the truth. I am sure their non political stuff on science, sports etc is true. You can then say they are better than fake news site like the one posted above where they make shit up for money. But then this applies to RT as well, and mainstream media in the West has no grounds to call RT a fake news site without looking mighty hypocritical. At least RT or Xinhua don't pretend they are anything but the mouthpieces of their respective government.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Simon_Jester »

Bluntly, there is a huge difference between a media organization that is wrong, even consistently wrong, and a media organization that is lying.

If you are in denial about this, or are so busy bashing your favored Western media targets that you cannot even perceive that something is wrong when a totally fabricated story like "FBI agent investigating Clinton commits suicide under suspicious circumstances" gets half a million people believing it and telling their friends...

I have nothing further to say to you.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by mr friendly guy »

Simon_Jester wrote:Bluntly, there is a huge difference between a media organization that is wrong, even consistently wrong, and a media organization that is lying.

If you are in denial about this, or are so busy bashing your favored Western media targets that you cannot even perceive that something is wrong when a totally fabricated story like "FBI agent investigating Clinton commits suicide under suspicious circumstances" gets half a million people believing it and telling their friends...

I have nothing further to say to you.
If it wasn't clear, I am not saying the mainstream media examples are just wrong, they are also lying. Its just that a lot of the times they can get away with it without the blatant lie, but by just telling half truths, even if it's phrased to draw the opposite conclusion from what actually happened.

Second point, nowhere did I say fake news is good, so I don't know where you get the "cannot even perceive that something is wrong when a totally fabricated story like FBI agent investigating Clinton commits suicide under suspicious circumstances," is believed. I however point out mainstream media also churns out deceptive bullshit and it took them long enough to figure out lying is bad. Hence the irony. I also point out, if you're fooled by fake news, why should it matter if it was because someone made it up out of thin air, or because they twist facts to suit a narrative. Why should it matter aside from some abstract consideration that one might be just a bit more dishonest than the other more of the time? The end result is the same. Someone gets fed misinformation preventing them making an informed decision.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Simon_Jester wrote:What I'm saying is that I am disgusted by actual fake news groups, who deliberately create stories that are total fabrications, and who have little or no interest in even pretending to practice real journalism because that would require work. Where publishing a false story isn't just a common mistake due to incompetence that they fail to remedy... it's their business model.

Now compare this to a 'mainstream' outlet that has a problem with uncritically publishing propaganda, but at least gives a damn about facts most of the time. One that will publish retraction, and usually doesn't say things that are outright lies as opposed to mistakes or stupidity.

There's a huge difference between these two things.
You mean like how MSNBC, CNN, and other mainstream networks doctored video, photos, and transcripts in their coverage of George Zimmerman to fit their narrative of "white KKK Klansman kills innocent black teen in cold blood"? Like how the blood on the back of the head in the original police video was erased when the networks aired it, how Zimmerman's complexion went from Hispanic to lily white in the photos over the course of a few days, and how the 911 transcript was edited to essentially say "I shot him because he's black"? Were there any retractions for that shit? No. And they've done this many times on many different subjects, so fuck them.

I'd argue that the mainstream media is far more dangerous to freedom & democracy at this point than actual fake news sites. The people still have trust in mainstream media and yet they are being lied to and manipulated all the time. The best and most dangerous propaganda is when the people don't even know they're being suckered into the narrative.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by TheFeniX »

aerius wrote:You mean like how MSNBC, CNN, and other mainstream networks doctored video, photos, and transcripts in their coverage of George Zimmerman to fit their narrative of "white KKK Klansman kills innocent black teen in cold blood"?
While I had lost most of my faith in TV news years before, that whole incident made me stop watching it completely. I don't care about the details or the guilt of Zimmerman: that whole news cycle was a crock of shit. A "joke" picture I saw was one of Martin "moments before his death" showing an ultra-sound of a fetus and "Zimmerman" photoshopped to be bone white with a swastika tattooed on his forehead. While obviously taken to the extreme, it was funny because it still fit with the narrative the news media was pushing: portray Martin as an innocent angel and Zimmerman as a racist predator.

Zimmerman may have killed it for me, but Katrina started the whole thing. Pictures of white survivors "hunting for supplies" while black survivors "looting" all photos posted without context. Those were just the most visible. It was this steady stream of bullshit for so long people believed the whole place was a warzone with mass-slaughterings and rapes.
I'd argue that the mainstream media is far more dangerous to freedom & democracy at this point than actual fake news sites. The people still have trust in mainstream media and yet they are being lied to and manipulated all the time. The best and most dangerous propaganda is when the people don't even know they're being suckered into the narrative.
I don't know which is worst to be honest. Mainsteam media trust is at the lowest it's ever been and I don't think it's gone up at all since John Stewart was the most trusted newsman. But the "troll Facebook with lies" works because people are just fucking stupid about the Internet and will trust bullshit posted by their "friends" because they clicked the "Accept Friend Request" button for 50 people they wouldn't give the time of day to in real life.

I mean, my sister finally bought the idea that Fox News is Conservitard garbage (but even it has it's moments). She threw the line in MY face (holy shit): "Get you news from places besides Fox!" because she was reading Facebook posted garbage about how Clinton was cleaning house and murdering all the loose ends and that when elected: #BLM gestapo thugs both beholden to and empowered by Hillary were going to step on our necks and take all our guns. And the cops won't be able to stop them for fear of being labelled racist."

Normal people were not prepared for The Internet and we're paying the price for it.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by Simon_Jester »

People who spin specific incidents in a misleading manner are bad.

People who try to portray someone accused of a crime as a criminal, for the sake of creating scandal, are bad.

People who completely fabricate criminal allegations out of thin air, purely because they expect idiots to believe them, are worse.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

Post by aerius »

Simon_Jester wrote:People who completely fabricate criminal allegations out of thin air, purely because they expect idiots to believe them, are worse.
Like how the mainstream media conveniently found a bunch of women that Trump had allegedly raped? Then it turns out that there's no police or any other records of victim statements, charges filed, court cases, or anything at all to substantiate those claims, except for one case where IIRC 3 different attorneys refused to prosecute the case because it was most likely fabricated and so shoddy that it would've been tossed out of court.

And let's not even get started on the whole Russian connection narrative. Fuck the mainstream media, The Onion is a more accurate news source than they are.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Just to be clear, you are saying that these allegations were fabricated by the news agencies?
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Simon_Jester wrote:Just to be clear, you are saying that these allegations were fabricated by the news agencies?
When an organization is ideologically and mentally uniform, it is very easy to justify "lying for Jesus" due to lack of opposing viewpoints in positions of authority. It's still lying even if they carefully shape things to avoid lawsuits. Welcome to the liberal version of swiftboating.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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Still trying to be clear on whether aerius is accusing the media organizations of fabricating the rape allegations themselves, or of uncritically passing on rape allegations claimed by others.
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Re: Western media whines about fake news

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I have said earlier I find fake news worse on some level, however the main point of what makes both mainstream media and fake news sites bad, its that they deceive. Its like someone who murders via a sniper rifle saying, "hey, my kills are quick and they don't suffer much," compared to a murderer who stabs them to death in a frenzied knife attack. Ok, the latter case clearly suffers more, but the statement kind of misses the point that what we find abhorrent about his action is the unjustified killing. The part that makes it worse, is less relevant in this scenario.

The same thing applies here, the point is they both deceive, and the fact one is more creative in his deception kind of misses the point if both end up with the same result. I would argue for now, mainstream media are more successful at it, not because they are better liars, but because they're considered "reputatable" by more people than some random site on the internet. Which in a way makes what they do worse, because they have more influence (for now).
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