Russian war criminal killed in Donetsk

[Thanas]

Hey, remember the asshole who bragged about killing PoWs?

He got his.

A notorious warlord has been killed in a bombing in Donetsk, a stronghold of pro-Russia rebels against the Ukrainian government, separatist officials have said.

The separatist Donetsk News Agency said Arsen Pavlov, also known as Motorola, was killed on Sunday in Donetsk when a bomb exploded in a lift in an apartment building where he was staying. He is one of several prominent warlords who have been killed in bombings in the past year. Pavlov once admitted to killing 15 prisoners of war.

Separatist officials have blamed previous bombings on Ukrainian saboteurs operating in the rebel-controlled areas.

The conflict between separatists and Ukrainian government forces has been raging since April 2014, killing more than 9,600 people.

Russian-born Pavlov, 33, worked in a car wash before he crossed the border and joined the separatists in 2014, later becoming one of the most recognisable faces of the Donetsk separatist movement.

Wonder if it is Ukraine or Putin doing the deed....

[K. A. Pital]

Just typical assassinations of militia members. Nothing new.

Sounds more and more like Yugoslavia.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

While that is going on, I hear the Ukrainians are trying to charge some Tornado neo-nazis, and the judges and prosecutors are having a rather interesting time. Wonder if the judges themselves will find a bomb in their faces.

[Balrog]

So is it just a case of Russia being incapable of doing two things at once (propping up Assad and supporting the "Ukrainian Separatists"), or is it part of some longer game that they've allowed this conflict to simmer for so long?

[K. A. Pital]

The longer game is to wipe the floor with Ukraine, and so far it seems to be working. Standard of life there is collapsing and rapidly falling to some of the worst Third World examples. Malnutrition on the rise, wages a pittance and extreme poverty spiking.

I guess Russia just has to wait until the whole place implodes even harder - like Yugoslavia did. Then scoop up the remains. Maybe that is the thinking, dunno.

[Thanas]

I think they rather plan to have Ukraine locked up in a state of permanent civil war/unrest so that nothing gets done there.

That of course is no viable long term strategy but it seems to work for the moment.

[K. A. Pital]

I think they rather plan to have Ukraine locked up in a state of permanent civil war/unrest so that nothing gets done there.

That of course is no viable long term strategy but it seems to work for the moment.

That is a perfectly good strategy - why unviable? Starvation tactics work in the long term, too.

[Thanas]

Because Russia's position is not getting any stronger over time, while the Ukraine has in the long term more advantages than the Russian puppet area. Russia does not have the resources to keep them economically viable in the long run. Every other russian puppet is alreaady expensive as hell.

[K. A. Pital]

Because Russia's position is not getting any stronger over time, while the Ukraine has in the long term more advantages than the Russian puppet area. Russia does not have the resources to keep them economically viable in the long run. Every other russian puppet is alreaady expensive as hell.

Problem is, Russia does not need to keep them economically viable. Even if they go down in history like a lawless zone, Somalia of Europe, nobody would care. It takes tiny expenditures to ruin something; much greater to build. Ukraine is more advantageous - but that has not stopped areas from splitting away before and won't do so now. A common Yugoslavia was also more advantageous than the resulting bloody mess.

[Thanas]

Russia will need to keep them economically viable or they won't be able to control that many people. Not if they want to do it with local militias being a significant portion of those focess.

[K. A. Pital]

Russia will need to keep them economically viable or they won't be able to control that many people. Not if they want to do it with local militias being a significant portion of those focess.

They only need to pay the militias well - which they do, and which is not hard given that the average wage is around 100 bucks a month or less, and reports claim militiamen could earn triple or more than that. Then the entire male population will desire join the militia, as it would be one of the few viable occupations and have a promise of making you rich. This has happened in other wars, too.

Economics of the horde in local conflicts often lead to a downwards spiral of plundering. Which, also, seems to be the case.

[mr friendly guy]

Because Russia's position is not getting any stronger over time, while the Ukraine has in the long term more advantages than the Russian puppet area. Russia does not have the resources to keep them economically viable in the long run. Every other russian puppet is alreaady expensive as hell.

Russia's economy is predicted to start growing again in 2017 according to the IMF. Granted the IMF also think Ukraine will grow as well, starting from this year, so its a matter of who recovers first and most. Given in 2015 Russia's economy was 1.326 trillion USD while Ukraine is only 90.5 billion and Russia only has to look after a smaller area, I think long term things are not so clear cut in Ukraine's favour.

Long term I feel that Europe will eventually lift those sanctions on Russia, which will counteract the advantage (for all its worth) that Ukraine gets from Western loans and little trade. Even now there are pressures from EU nations who trade with Russia to lift sanctions. The only nations which benefit from this EU/Russia spat are a) Ukraine b) US and c) China and not any EU nations.

[Thanas]

Because Russia's position is not getting any stronger over time, while the Ukraine has in the long term more advantages than the Russian puppet area. Russia does not have the resources to keep them economically viable in the long run. Every other russian puppet is alreaady expensive as hell.

Russia's economy is predicted to start growing again in 2017 according to the IMF.

So? They can't afford to spent several billions per annum in Ukraine, not when there will be additional economic sanctions incoming. Which are pretty much a certainty if Russia keeps on delaying Minsk agreement implementation, as Merkel has said.

[Sea Skimmer]

Just like they can't afford billions for that bridge to the Crimea that is now half finished? And by a corrupt company that never built a bridge before no less!

Of course they can afford it, it is only a matter of priorities like all other spending ever, and since Putin is still more popular now then he was in 2013 questionable priorities are clearly no problem yet orsoon. And in the worse case even if they throw the region back to the Ukraine, an option Putin has certainly kept open, Ukraine certainly cannot afford to fix it, and after the utter lack of military support Europe has provided I see no reason to believe the economic support needed to compensate would be forthcoming either. It would certainly be illegitimate to engage in such large scale diversions considering the issues involved with EU wide funding. So its win win, or win for Russia. A bad economy..sounds like most of the history of Russia! its not a question that oil prices have more to do with this then sanctions anyway, or that the USSR withstood 40 years of western sanctions and internal counter sanctions, and still only imploded because it was run that stupidly, plus an oil price crash.

The Russian strategic goal was to keep Ukraine out of NATO and out of the EU, and they have done more then enough damage to ensure that will be the case for at least several decades, which is further then human planning is ever capable of functioning. So they already won on all major strategic objectives plain and simple. Meanwhile Europe can't even effectively reassure the Baltic states, after two damn years, that they can't or won't be next. That has a damn fucking lot to do with what a worthless hollow force Germany has been shown to have, and say, the utter failure of any European leadership at all to encourage Obama to make a bigger deal out of blatant Russian INF violations. Indeed some countries, I forget the German position actually, have basically tried to dent this is real.

The decisive point has already past. Russia won, deal with it, that's how they operate. But I think you forget that the Russians have never forgotten 1941 anyway, and never will in our lifetimes. They WILL suffer if they believe it makes a repeat of that more impossible.

If you want a true solution to Russian aggression BTW, I would name it Pershing III. As it is Belgium has more nuclear weapons on its soil then Germany. Really shows Russia who matters! Probably more realistic idea then say, Germany building effective tank ammo, and the US has just begun the design of a new conventional strike missile.

[mr friendly guy]

I was curious why an economy greater than $1 trillion USD and even growing at 1% could not afford to continue giving a few billion USD to prop up a puppet regime. Sure it won't be an economic powerhouse like the US, EU or China, but then the goal of Russia's actions in Ukraine is to prevent encirclement by stopping Ukraine getting closer to the West. But Skimmer put it nicely.

Although if you had a look at conservative magazines like the Spectator, Skimmer would be totally wrong. You see Putin is a great tactician, but he sucks at strategy because of sanctions hurting the Russian economy. Not that Russia was going to be able to economically come close to the West anyway, irregardless of sanctions.

[K. A. Pital]

The decisive point has already past. Russia won, deal with it, that's how they operate. But I think you forget that the Russians have never forgotten 1941 anyway, and never will in our lifetimes. They WILL suffer if they believe it makes a repeat of that more impossible.

Amen. Never forget - never forgive.

Also, ruining the prospects of other states nearby and throwing them into chaos and disarray is much easier than supplying your satellite states with enough oil and consumer goods to keep them in your orbit. Since the task field now is that much smaller and a lot more simple than during the Soviet period, achieving these small objectives becomes trivially easy at times.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Because Russia's position is not getting any stronger over time, while the Ukraine has in the long term more advantages than the Russian puppet area. Russia does not have the resources to keep them economically viable in the long run. Every other russian puppet is alreaady expensive as hell.

Russia's economy is predicted to start growing again in 2017 according to the IMF.

So? They can't afford to spent several billions per annum in Ukraine, not when there will be additional economic sanctions incoming. Which are pretty much a certainty if Russia keeps on delaying Minsk agreement implementation, as Merkel has said.

Merkel couldn't even get more sanctions because of Syria. What are you jumping up and down about?

[K. A. Pital]

Minsk Agreements have carried a great likelihood of failure from the very start.

Russia just needs them in case it decides to shove the entire mess, which Donetsk and Lugansk are now, back into Ukraine's hands while making sure both regions keep bleeding like an open wound.

There is simply no incentive for any of the parties to keep this as anything but frozen conflict. Except Ukraine, but I guess they also have lost their appetite for a hot, shooting war.

[Thanas]

Merkel couldn't even get more sanctions because of Syria. What are you jumping up and down about?

Nobody sadly cares about Syria, but a lot of people care about having a warzone next door. And yes, sanctions are on the table, Merkel clearly said so in Berlin. Whether she will be able to implement them is another thing.

[AMX]

The decisive point has already past. Russia won, deal with it, that's how they operate. But I think you forget that the Russians have never forgotten 1941 anyway, and never will in our lifetimes. They WILL suffer if they believe it makes a repeat of that more impossible.

Amen. Never forget - never forgive.

And all of Eastern Europe remembers how the Russians acted for the following 50 years.
If you consider this a reasonable approach, do me a favor and go die in a fire.

[K. A. Pital]

The decisive point has already past. Russia won, deal with it, that's how they operate. But I think you forget that the Russians have never forgotten 1941 anyway, and never will in our lifetimes. They WILL suffer if they believe it makes a repeat of that more impossible.

Amen. Never forget - never forgive.

And all of Eastern Europe remembers how the Russians acted for the following 50 years.
If you consider this a reasonable approach, do me a favor and go die in a fire.

I think it is unreasonable to expect me to forget - or forgive - how a bunch of genocidal racists from Western Europe and their less intelligent acolytes from Southern and Eastern Europe invaded with the goal of physically annihilating my and a bunch of other nations.

If you can't even convince me to forgive or forget (why?), you won't convince any actual citizen of Russia.

That's just how it is. Curse or howl - it won't change a thing.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The decisive point has already past. Russia won, deal with it, that's how they operate. But I think you forget that the Russians have never forgotten 1941 anyway, and never will in our lifetimes. They WILL suffer if they believe it makes a repeat of that more impossible.

Amen. Never forget - never forgive.

And all of Eastern Europe remembers how the Russians acted for the following 50 years.
If you consider this a reasonable approach, do me a favor and go die in a fire.

You mean Nazi collaborators and the like?

[AMX]

why?

Because your preferred course of action is intentionally causing more death and destruction - among people who weren't even born in '41, no less.

And guess how your counterparts on the other side will react.

As long as monsters like you keep the hate alive, there can never be peace.

You mean Nazi collaborators and the like?

Because there's so many of them left

[Kane Starkiller]

Don't you ever forget Stas! How you had to crawl through the trenches in '42. Remember it like it was yesterday. Ohhh the humanity.

How should the Soviet people prevent another such dastardly invasion so horrible kiddies born in the 90s remember it? How about starting a conflict between two largest constituent nations of the former USSR. That'll do it.

[AMX]

Don't you ever forget Stas! How you had to crawl through the trenches in '42. Remember it like it was yesterday. Ohhh the humanity.

How should the Soviet people prevent another such dastardly invasion so horrible kiddies born in the 90s remember it? How about starting a conflict between two largest constituent nations of the former USSR. That'll do it.

Indeed.
A whole new generation of Ukrainians has been given a brand new reason to despise Russia - and I recon a fair number of Russians have lost loved ones in the process, and will of course blame Ukraine for it.

And these two idiots think that's a good idea that will keep Russia safe.