Umptety shooting in usa. Orlando case

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, this is definitely terrorism, presuming the reports thus far are accurate. It would have been terrorism if it had been done by a Christian, a Jew, someone from any other religion, or an atheist who just hated gays for some random reason.

When I use that word, I do not mean "Muslim". I mean, more or less, an ideologically motivated violent crime. And you know full well, if you've read my numerous past posts on various terrorist attacks, that I do not treat the word "terrorism" as something applying only to Muslims. If a Jew or Christian, or a secular gay hater (I'm sure their must be a few somewhere, if only because humans can be varied and creative in their stupidity) targeted gays because they hated homosexuals, I'd have called it terrorism too.

And I am certainly not suggesting attacks on Arabs or Muslims, nor suggesting any further military action beyond those we are already engaged in in response to this attack. That is something completely fabricated, or else completely unrelated to my comments, in which case you should make that clear.

If you want to rant at someone about equating terrorism with attacks by Muslims or hate-mongering against Arabs (which is a perfectly reasonable thing to rant about), find someone else to accuse.

[RogueIce]

I don't care if the fucker was Christian, Muslim, or Jew, only one of the wonderful funderful Abrahamites would have done this. And it pisses me the fuck off that we had body count and all, yet it wasn't a "terrorist attack" until the shooter was identified as Muslim. To paraphrase a wise man: "God damn the USA!"

The guy called 911 during the standoff and pledged allegiance to the ISIS leader. Pretty sure they didn't base the terrorism angle on him "just because" he's Muslim.

[Joun_Lord]

Can we please not hijack yet another mass shooting into a defence of the Right to Bear Arms?

I agree it should not turn into yet another clusterfuck of people whining about gun rights. But nor should it devolve into people using it as an excuse to take them away. You cannot expect one side to just sit and take it when the other side would more then likely be dickriding this shooting to short stroke their spiel all over the place?

You cannot just blame one side for politicizing an issue especially when often enough the pro-gun side is only speaking out in response to the anti-gun side wallowing in the still wet blood of the victims while not giving a fucking damn about the innocent people killed, not giving a damn that they are using human beings, people with families, friends, loved ones as fucking props to push through pet laws. Sometimes the pro-gunner "nuts" make preemptive statements in responses to these tragedies its still a response to people going after what they is a right using the tragedy as an excuse.

Both sides are just as guilty of not giving a damn about anyone but themselves though. But sides have not shits to give to the people actually affected by these tragedies except how they can pimp them out from their street corner. Both sides are depraved whores.

I'd fucking love, LOVE, if for once nobody politicized these horrible tragedies, if people actually gave a damn about the victims as people, actually gave a damn about something other then themselves.

But the pro-gun "nuts" and the anti-gun "fucks" can't let a good tragedy go to waste.

I'm sorry for the rant RR, its not really directed at you but this this whole "pro-anti" clusterfuck in general. While I'm generally pro-gun the response over tragedies like this from both sides sickens me. I'm sure the anti-gay NRA doesn't even give a flying fuck because it was bunch of gay people killed. The antis don't give a fuck anymore then the NRA does though, none of them fucking do. Only about their fucking toys or taking them away. Fucking goddamn.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that you are extremely unfair in your characterization of the anti-gun side, most of whom are anti-gun precisely because they do care about the victims and see gun control (rightly or wrongly) as the best way to honour the victims and stop their being more victims. You are also overgeneralizing about both sides, to put it mildly.

Though for ever gun owner just standing up for their rights, their is an asshole just pushing a Right wing pro-gun agenda.

As for me, I'm pro-strong regulation of guns, anti-absolute banning of civilian gun ownership, but believe that any changes to gun regulations should be done within the law, meaning that anything the courts rule contradicts the Second Amendment should be implemented only if a Constitutional amendment allowing it can be passed or the courts are willing to revisit the issue and revise their interpretation. I consider myself a Left-leaning centrist on the issue.

In either case, I don't feel that this particular atrocity is primarily about gun control/gun rights. This is about terrorism and bigotry first and foremost.

[Zaune]

Some notable social media responses. There's a certain black humour in the mental gymnastics going on as conservatives grapple with the idea that a Muslim machine-gunned a bunch of homosexuals to death.

[Channel72]

Speaking of non-Muslim terrorists... it seems like some asshole in California was definitely planning on doing something pretty bad at a gay pride event, or at least, that's what Santa Monica police chief is saying.

Foxnews seems to have confirmed there was definitely a criminal intent going on here before the other sources I usually check.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/12/ma ... tcmp=hpbt1

Assault rifles, ammunition and materials that could be used to create explosives were found by Santa Monica authorities early Sunday morning in the car of an Indiana man who said he was in town for a Gay Pride parade, The Los Angeles Times reported.

The arrest of James Howell comes just hours after a shooter opened fire on a gay nightclub in Orlando, killing 50 people and wounding at least 53 more before dying in a firefight with police.

Santa Monica Police Chief Jacqueline Seabrooks said on Twitter the suspect told a police officer that he wanted “to harm Gay Pride event."

When officers inspected the Howell’s white Acura, they reportedly found the weapons and ammunition cache as well as tannerite, a binary explosive that could be used to create a pipe bomb.

Howell allegedly told authorities he was in town for Sunday’s pride parade in West Hollywood.

There was no immediate link between the Santa Monica incident and the Orlando massacre, officials said before the pride parade began.

“We're not aware of what the suspect’s intentions were at this point," Rodriguez said.

The investigation was taken over by the FBI.

Sheriff’s officials have stepped up security around the parade and other activities, West Hollywood City Councilwoman Lindsey Horvath said in a statement.

"We are safe, we are protected, our law enforcement officials are here," LA Mayor Eric Garcetti said.

It's a complete coincidence, brought on by pride month, obviously... but I guess it's nice to see Muslim and Christian terrorists can both agree they hate gays.

[The Romulan Republic]

Technically nothing there confirms that he's non-Muslim, but at the risk of profiling, this one sounds like Right wing domestic terrorism, yes.

[Joun_Lord]

I think that you are extremely unfair in your characterization of the anti-gun side, most of whom are anti-gun precisely because they do care about the victims and see gun control (rightly or wrongly) as the best way to honour the victims and stop their being more victims. You are also overgeneralizing about both sides, to put it mildly.

Though for ever gun owner just standing up for their rights, their is an asshole just pushing a Right wing pro-gun agenda.

As for me, I'm pro-strong regulation of guns, anti-absolute banning of civilian gun ownership, but believe that any changes to gun regulations should be done within the law, meaning that anything the courts rule contradicts the Second Amendment should be implemented only if a Constitutional amendment allowing it can be passed or the courts are willing to revisit the issue and revise their interpretation. I consider myself a Left-leaning centrist on the issue.

In either case, I don't feel that this particular atrocity is primarily about gun control/gun rights. This is about terrorism and bigotry first and foremost.

Some might see trying to pass anti-gun control stuff as helping the victims, many others do not.

Far too many want to push through pointless gun control based on cosmetic features that will not stop a single shooting, a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with the shooting they are harping on, and try to push through anti-gun stuff even when things are relatively calm. That does not seem to be caring about the victims, that seems to me caring about going after guns and using victims as an excuse.

And while I might be overgeneralizing the antis its seems saying "for ever gun owner just standing up for their rights, their is an asshole just pushing a Right wing pro-gun agenda" is just as much of an over-generalization. If I am wrong about the fact many anti-gunners care only about the victims as much as they can use them, surely the same could be said about the pro-gunners? If the antis who are assholes are just a loud minority, are not the pros who are assholes the same? Some are loud mouth unrepentant assfaces like Wayne LaPierre and the various facebook warriors while most care about the victims and think better access to firearms is the best to prevent more victims?

I mean thats how I feel and while I do consider myself an asshole I'm not so much a Right Wing agenda'd asshole who cares more about rights then victims. I'd consider myself pretty left leaning damn dirty centrist too, the only thing I'm really "right wing" about is a strong military (and even I think the spending needs to be cut back considerably, and the F-35 needs cut and the people who kept funding it need.....a stern talking to) and gun rights. But I don't believe in gun rights solely because "its the lawwwwwwwww" or because people should be generally allowed to own what they want without having to get permission but because I feel firearms are the best when it comes to people protecting themselves.

But yeah, this shit shouldn't even really be about gun control considering the guy had special licenses different from Joe Average that give him different access to firearms. It would be like talking about gun control if a cop shot up a place. Kinda pointless. Thats not even getting into the fact this was most certainly terrorism (though I think many mass shootings are, despite the fact sometimes its a white person because white people can't be terrorists!!!!!!! or so the media would have you believe).

[Starglider]

Too bad he was too much of a coward to actually go out with a real ISIS-style suicide vest, unlike the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan in Paris.

'Too bad?' That would have just increased the body count even more. Suicide by cop is preferable to spraying civillians with shrapnel in that the police at least have a good chance of taking them out with no further loss of life, as happened here due to being equipped and trained for the situation.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Wish 50 dead & 53 injured would do something about guns. But they was faggits, so nope!

I'm not saying that they're aren't people who will be indifferent to this because it was targeting gay people, but their most likely wouldn't be substantial gun control reform if it was 50 dead and 53 injured children either. Remember Sandy Hook?

Besides, its a jihadi terrorism case, so if the usual pattern is followed the proposed solutions will tend towards more surveillance, war, and bigotry, not gun control.

Edited to specify jihadi terorrism.

Terrorism my ass. He did it because his imaginary sky friend told him to kill fags. Guess what? A Christian would have done it because his imaginary sky friend told him to kill fags. A Jew would have done it because his imaginary sky friend told him to kill fags.

But because the Muslim did it, we need to kick some Arab ass! Woooooo!

I appreciate the sentiment behind your post. However, while the context indicates you are not using the F word and its derivatives in the form of hate speech, I would appreciate it if you did not use it in the context of a fucking mass hate crime/terrorist attack.

This is not an official rebuke, but Jesus Fucking Christ, Flagg.

[Channel72]

Too bad he was too much of a coward to actually go out with a real ISIS-style suicide vest, unlike the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan in Paris.

'Too bad?' That would have just increased the body count even more. Suicide by cop is preferable to spraying civillians with shrapnel in that the police at least have a good chance of taking them out with no further loss of life, as happened here due to being equipped and trained for the situation.

That's strange... I thought the British, at least, would be much better at detecting dry humor.

[Starglider]

That's strange... I thought the British, at least, would be much better at detecting dry humor.

There is a time and a place for that, and suggesting that a mass slaugher should have been even more deadly is not an appropriate time, given that there are plenty of horrible people posting that sentiment to social media in earnest.

Thats not even getting into the fact this was most certainly terrorism (though I think many mass shootings are

The difference between a hate crime and terrorism is that there is a political motive; the perpetrator intends to have an effect on society beyond the immediate suffering of the victims and their friends/families. This one seems fairly clearly terrorism, in that the explicit link to ISIS was definitely intended to make them look like they have reach into the US, and the shooter was probably hoping to scare a few queer people into changing their behaviour (if only not to go to nightclubs). But that Santa Barbara shooting was not terrorism; it was just a hateful madman on a rampage.

[The Romulan Republic]

Surely something can be both a hate crime and terrorism?

[Broomstick]

Thats not even getting into the fact this was most certainly terrorism (though I think many mass shootings are, despite the fact sometimes its a white person because white people can't be terrorists!!!!!!! or so the media would have you believe).

Timothy McVeigh is someone white that most certainly has been and still is described as a terrorist.

I agree the media is reluctant to call white people or Christians terrorists, but it's not a universal.

Frankly, for the first few hours of this shit I was pretty sure it would turn out to be a white Christian.

[The Romulan Republic]

Not much difference between Christian and Muslim terrorists when you get down to it, except in terms of window dressing and the latter, these days, being better organized.

At the end of the day, its indoctrinated assholes killing people over bigotry and old superstition.

[Joun_Lord]

The difference between a hate crime and terrorism is that there is a political motive; the perpetrator intends to have an effect on society beyond the immediate suffering of the victims and their friends/families. This one seems fairly clearly terrorism, in that the explicit link to ISIS was definitely intended to make them look like they have reach into the US, and the shooter was probably hoping to scare a few queer people into changing their behaviour (if only not to go to nightclubs). But that Santa Barbara shooting was not terrorism; it was just a hateful madman on a rampage.

I'm going to echo Rommie above and that little girl from the taco commercials, why not both? The line between just killings and terrorism is a blurry one. Certainly that asshole in SB was terrorising his victims but thats not really what terrorism is considered. He did have a political motive with his doucheybag dudebro tiny dick MRA all women should love me because I have a nice car bullshit and his less well known but still there racist rants. He attacked people because he hated women and minorities, was jealous that people he saw that were "lesser" (but with bigger dicks) were getting with women while he was not. That sounds like something of a personal and political motive, he was clearly trying to terrorize the people he disliked because he was so small......so small but also people he politically was against because of his toxic ideology.

I don't think I'd see much difference between Elliot Rodger Rodger (his mom dated George Lucas so I think that works) killing people for stupid MRA ideals and Omar killing people for stupid ISIS ideals. Both were hateful madmen on a rampage based on no-doubt self loathing and some stupid set of beliefs.

Timothy McVeigh is someone white that most certainly has been and still is described as a terrorist.

I agree the media is reluctant to call white people or Christians terrorists, but it's not a universal.

Frankly, for the first few hours of this shit I was pretty sure it would turn out to be a white Christian.

Thats pretty much what I driving at, the reluctance to call white nutters terrorists while the media almost falls over themselves trying to paint any non-white nutter a terrorist.

And it would not have surprised me if this had been a white Christian extremist because, I guess to invoke a form of Godwin's Law, there is quite a bit of common ground between Christian extremists and ISIS. Thats not to say most Christians are like ISIS or anything but the nutty as fruitcake (even fruitcake even nutty, I've never actually seen any IRL) Christian extremists most certainly have SOME similarities with ISIS or ISIL or Daesh or whatever they are called.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That's strange... I thought the British, at least, would be much better at detecting dry humor.

There is a time and a place for that, and suggesting that a mass slaugher should have been even more deadly is not an appropriate time, given that there are plenty of horrible people posting that sentiment to social media in earnest.

Thats not even getting into the fact this was most certainly terrorism (though I think many mass shootings are

The difference between a hate crime and terrorism is that there is a political motive; the perpetrator intends to have an effect on society beyond the immediate suffering of the victims and their friends/families. This one seems fairly clearly terrorism, in that the explicit link to ISIS was definitely intended to make them look like they have reach into the US, and the shooter was probably hoping to scare a few queer people into changing their behaviour (if only not to go to nightclubs). But that Santa Barbara shooting was not terrorism; it was just a hateful madman on a rampage.

Indeed. Joking about this being more deadly is not appropriate at all, additionally it is not just the shrapnel, but the overpressure that will kill people in a confined space. A bomb in a nighclub would have been incalculably worse.

However, hate crimes are basically terrorism lite. Their primary effect is to make a victim or victims suffer/die, but they also send a political message. "Your X (be X race, religion, sexual orientation, sex, gender etc) is unacceptable and you should live your lives in fear of death."

They are intended to terrify a subset of the population into silence and hiding. That makes them terrorism. Terrorism on a smaller scale perhaps than frightening a government into compliance, but they are still terrorism, which is why we tack additional penalties onto hate crimes. Not because we are punishing a particularly vile motive, but because the crime itself has more victims than the direct object of violence.

[Channel72]

That's strange... I thought the British, at least, would be much better at detecting dry humor.

There is a time and a place for that, and suggesting that a mass slaugher should have been even more deadly is not an appropriate time, given that there are plenty of horrible people posting that sentiment to social media in earnest.

Nonchalant, irreverent humor is the best attitude to have against an organization that explicitly wants everyone to fear them.

The reality is that ISIS is a failing organization with serious financial problems that wants us to believe they are "everywhere" and can strike at us in our nightclubs and our office buildings. Except they're not... And their silly "agent" Omar? He was not some international terrorist with "ties to ISIS" or whatever. He was a boring, pathetic homophobe who didn't even have the guts to strap on a fucking suicide vest and blow himself up like the real hardcore Jihadist killer he so desperately wanted to be.

[Highlord Laan]

Wish 50 dead & 53 injured would do something about guns. But they was faggits, so nope!

Wish you had two brain cells to rub together, but you're a dipshit by nature, so nope!

Read the goddamed news fucknugget. He was a registered and fully legal armed security officer. Everything checked out, every box checked, every law applied. It's almost like it's a people problem, and not a tool problem.

But hey, it's people like you, so the easiest knee-jerk reaction is always the first on you jump on. Shitheel.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Official Pronouncement: If you want to talk about gun control, we have two threads on the topic active right now. We do not need a third. At the very least we dont need it to degenerate into that when the bodies are still in rigor mortis.

[Dominus Atheos]

Alyrium, what's your personal and "official" mod opinion of my repressed homosexual theory? Grumman apparently thinks that the very suggestion is offensive, what do you think?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Alyrium, what's your personal and "official" mod opinion of my repressed homosexual theory? Grumman apparently thinks that the very suggestion is offensive, what do you think?

It is a possibility given certain lines of research, but also completely fucking irrelevant and yes, it is offensive because it amounts to blaming us for our own oppression.

[Dominus Atheos]

My apologies then, I'll drop it.

[SolarpunkFan]

This applies more to a fandom I'm with, still sucks though: http://dogpatch.press/2016/06/12/fur-lo ... nightclub/

[applejack]

A bit more about the shooter from a co-worker.

Florida Today

Co-worker: Omar Mateen homophobic, 'unhinged'
Anthony Westbury, Nicole Rodriguez, Elliot Jones, USA TODAY Network - Florida 7:20 p.m. EDT June 12, 2016

A former Fort Pierce police officer who once worked with 29-year-old Omar Mateen, the assailant in an Orlando nightclub shooting that left at least 50 dead, said he was "unhinged and unstable."

Daniel Gilroy said he worked the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift with G4S Security at the south gate at PGA Village for several months in 2014-15. Mateen took over from him for a 3 to 11 p.m. shift.

Gilroy, a former Fort Pierce police officer, said Mateen frequently made homophobic and racial comments. Gilroy said he complained to his employer several times but it did nothing because he was Muslim. Gilroy quit after he said Mateen began stalking him via multiple text messages — 20 or 30 a day. He also sent Gilroy 13 to 15 phone messages a day, he said.

"I quit because everything he said was toxic," Gilroy said Sunday, "and the company wouldn't do anything. This guy was unhinged and unstable. He talked of killing people."

Gilroy said this shooting didn't come as a surprise to him.

PGA Village resident Eleanora Dorsi, however, recognized Mateen's face as a friendly one who guarded her gated community in western Port St. Lucie.

"Whenever I saw him, he was very polite," Dorsi said Sunday from her summer home in Connecticut. "He was always a gentleman."

Dorsi, who has lived in the community since 2011, estimated that she saw Mateen a dozen times through the years, but he left a big impression on her because of his chivalry, she said.

"He even helped me with the car once, so I can't say he was creepy," she said.

Mateen helped her work the windshield cleaning function in her new car one time, she said.

Dorsi frequently gave Mateen and other guards at PGA Village pizza, cookies and candy for their hard work, she said. The last time she saw Mateen was a year ago, Dorsi said.

"He was always smiling and just seemed like a very nice, positive person," Dorsi said.

It sent chills down Dorsi's spine to imagine the man charged with keeping her and other locals safe carried out the deadliest mass shooting in the nation's history, she said.

"You would never ever think that he would have done anything like this," Dorsi said. "Scary, scary. Very scary. I think everyone feels like that right now," she added. "It hits too close to home."

.Mateen has multiple ties to the Treasure Coast area of Florida.

- Mateen, born in New York, lived in an apartment complex in the 2500 block of South 19th Street in Fort Pierce. Law enforcement was at the complex Sunday.

- He also received mail at his parents’ home in the 900 block of Southwest Bayshore Boulevard in Port St. Lucie. Law enforcement remained at the home Sunday with his family.
He received degrees in science in 2006 and 2007 from Indian River State College. However, further details about how long he attended the school were unavailable.

- He attended his freshman year of high school at Martin County High School. It's unclear whether he attended MCHS after that.

- Mateen married Sitora Yusufiy of Port St. Lucie in 2009, according to court documents. They divorced two years later in 2011, St. Lucie County court records show.

- Mateen has no state criminal record, according to Florida Department of Law Enforcement records.

Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida, urged restraint in the hours and days following the attack in Orlando.

"I want to also caution many of the media from rushing to judgment," he said. "We are mourning. We are sad. We are heartbroken, and it's not really time to...rush to judgment."

The Imam went on to say:

“We condemn the person who did this, whatever ideology he had. No lives should be lost because of anger and hate.”

Musri, who is also president of American Islam, said he does no know what could be done for what seems like one mass shooting after another.

“I condemn all acts of terrorism, especially those done in the name of my faith,” he said. “It’s heartbreaking to see this in my beloved city of Orlando. We’re in mourning.”

The coworker might have a grudge against Mateen, so he might not be the most reliable source for any insight into the shooter's mentality. Still, it might help us draw a better picture of the dude.