European refugee crisis thread

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Eleas
Jaina Dax
Posts: 4896
Joined: 2002-07-08 05:08am
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Contact:

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Eleas »

No, in point of fact they'd last longer. If you have 10,000 immigrants per week, and you have 25,000 apartments, that means 40,000 people slotted into 25,000 apartments. Now while I'm no mathematician, I don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the idea of concentrating families of refugees denser than 1.6 people per apartment. But that, of course, might just be me.

Regardless, you're ignoring the larger point: that we have space yet, and large complexes that while not considered apartments may yet converted at some loss of modern functionality (as per the Expressen article I linked to). You're ignoring that it's a matter of political will, just like we just had to have police assault Roma immigrants and steal their bloody blankets for vagrancy while ten minutes away eager consumers were blissfully sleeping in the streets without an eyebrow being raised.

When center-and-right parties like S say differently, they're implicitly adding the qualifier "other than the accommodations that do exist." Which is my point.
Björn Paulsen

"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Ralin »

Thanas wrote: Heh. Nope.

Guess what happens when you run a system at 160% of capacity.

And guess what happens when half of all the refugees want to move to one country.
That seems so weird to me. I mean, maybe I'm just speaking out of ignorance and there's a good reason for it but lumping needy refugees with regular needy people seems like an active attempt to overload the welfare system past the breaking point.

Which I would totally expect in America, mind, just not so much in Germany.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

Regular needy people need all the same things except integration (but they often need professional reintegration or counseling, which are also extra sevices on top of the housing/food/clothes provision). The state builds a system which is efficient. Creating a new parallel system from scratch is not efficient, and breeds corruption and abuse - because isolation lets crimes go unpunished for a long time. There is enough refugee abuse as it is. Do we really need to create a special "ministry of abuse" that will be separate from the welfare providing organizations?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Ralin »

Yeah, it makes sense when you put it that way.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7429
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zaune »

Besides, as I've pointed out previously, it's not like these are the first Syrian, Iraqi or otherwise Middle Eastern refugees to ever set foot in Western Europe. Most large towns will have at least one mosque, we have existing provision for legal documents and tax forms to be translated into Arabic, it's not particularly hard to find ESL classes in the larger cities; hell, in England even have a fair number of specialist Middle Eastern food importers for anyone who wants a literal taste of home, and I've seen libraries in large cities with a few shelves of books in Arabic and Urdu and suchlike.

Right now, we just need to get these people into safe and weatherproof accommodation and make sure they have adequate food and medical care.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Germany has now banned family reunions. This will make Swedens already impossible situation even more impossible.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/flue ... 98296.html

This is a very dangerous situation, there are tens of thousands of men of testosterone age who have moved to Sweden from the worlds most patriarchal societies expecting apartment and welfare.

Even if the borders are closed tomorrow and Sweden also bans family reunions it's going to be a very dangerous situation. At any time a spiral of violence that would benefit nazis, moderate nationalists, islamists, kurdish nationalists and so on could begin.
Having tens of thousands of mostly young men living under miserable conditions is dangerous no matter what skin or eye color they have.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

cosmicalstorm wrote:Germany has now banned family reunions. This will make Swedens already impossible situation even more impossible.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/flue ... 98296.html
Germany has not banned family reunions, the minister comments were not an official policy change announcement.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cosmicalstorm »

It was a rumor although it was published by several big newssources. France has announced they will reinstate border controls "temporarily" due to the risk of terrorism.
My personal guess is it wont be temporary and I wonder how long until these German rumors come true, as I said earlier Schengen is collapsing.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7429
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zaune »

Oh, do stop being silly. In ten years nobody will remember what the fuss was all about except the old git in the pub who's never happy unless he's got something to moan about.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I think this will be recalled as the most significant event in modern European history next to the end of WW2, the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Thanas is the historian though, I'm not entirely qualified.

It's becoming obvious that Europes borders will be lined with barb wire and guns real soon. The internal effects are harder to predict but Sweden and probably Germany are set for a lot of internal turbulence IMHO.

Sweden needs 50.000 tents now but only 4000 can be had.
http://www.svd.se/50000-taltplatser-i-a ... n-i-europa
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

Germany has just announced that they will now reenact the Dublin Protocol again, meaning refugees will be deported en masse to the country of entry (except for Greece). It was also just announced that refugees in Germany will be barred from having their families follow them.

This followed from the recent reports that of the 165k refugees who were going to be relocated to share the burden, only a few hundred have actually been relocated as the countries sit on their behinds and then do nothing. I am very disgusted with the EU right now.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Crown »

Thanas wrote:Germany has just announced that they will now reenact the Dublin Protocol again, meaning refugees will be deported en masse to the country of entry (except for Greece). It was also just announced that refugees in Germany will be barred from having their families follow them.

This followed from the recent reports that of the 165k refugees who were going to be relocated to share the burden, only a few hundred have actually been relocated as the countries sit on their behinds and then do nothing. I am very disgusted with the EU right now.
Is there a link for this Thanas?
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

It was just announced on the evening news, so no link right now, sorry.

But I got a link to the failure of the relocation scheme here
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

DW carried it:

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-reinstates ... a-18842101
Germany reinstates Dublin rules for Syrian refugees

Berlin plans to send more Syrian refugees back to the first EU country they entered while traveling towards Germany, officials say. The decision would not apply to Greece, one of the main entry points for the bloc.


The German authorities aim to "return to orderly procedure" concerning refugees, with measures including temporary border controls and the Dublin agreement, the Interior Ministry confirmed to DW on Tuesday.

The Dublin Regulation states that a refugee must register in the first EU country they enter, which is then tasked with examining that person's asylum application.

"Germany is currently applying the Dublin regulation for all countries of origin and all member states (except Greece)" the ministry said in an emailed statement, adding that Dublin rules has also applied to "Syrian nationals" since October 21.

In other words, the move should not apply to any Syrians who entered the EU in Greece, according to a report by the AFP news agency.

German authorities intend to make the decision on a case-by-case basis, and to take into account whether transfering the migrants back to other EU countries is a "realistic possibility," officials say.

Parties clashing over Dublin

Chancellor Angela Merkel suspended the agreement for Syrians in August, faced with the ever-growing number of asylum seekers. The authorities defended the decision citing humanitarian reasons.

At the same time, several politicians from Merkel's center-right CDU and its Bavarian sister party, the CSU, criticized the move, saying that many migrants would see her decision as an invitation to apply for asylum in Germany.

The overwhelming majority of the refugees arriving to Germany have not registered in any of the EU countries during their journey, posing a significant practical challenge for the authorities.

"The Interior Ministry is about to completely cripple the Office for Migration and Refugees," the head of Pro Asyl group, Günter Burkhardt, told the DPA news agency.

"Returning so many people to Hungary or Croatia is inhumane and, at the same time, unrealistic," he added.

The German parliament would discus the move to reestablish Dublin rules during the tomorrow's session, according to the DPA report. The German opposition and the center-left coalition partner, the SPD, have allegedly criticized the step.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
cmdrjones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2012-02-19 12:10pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cmdrjones »

I believe this constitutes propaganda announcing blowback... I don't see this ending well at all...
But, perhaps Thanas was right and in 10 or 20 years having all of these new residents in Europe will cure racism.
he American south and South Africa having worked out so well and all....

THESE sentiments are what I was talking about when I cautioned the SJWs to "let it go" with regards to the Stars and Bars months ago....
it's all very sick, pathetic and sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Yszp3SmxE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 4vzMNG2fZc
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

cmdrjones wrote:But, perhaps Thanas was right and in 10 or 20 years having all of these new residents in Europe will cure racism.
I don't think I ever said that.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
cmdrjones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2012-02-19 12:10pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cmdrjones »

Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:German police are expecting 5000 arrivals today, 1000 more than Cameron wants to take in. :wtf:

Meanwhile, the prime ministers of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia rejected any quota system for accepting migrants, aka "Let the Germans and Austrians worry". Well don't count on me being in favour of you getting EU money then.
On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine many refugees wanting to settle in those countries. If that's their attitude towards immigrants, they'd have to be nuts to actually want to live their. At least in Germany they might be treated decently.

Still, its absolutely shameful that certain EU members aren't willing to do their part to help.
It would do those nations a lot of good IMO to have some dark and brown people living among them, would certainly help to alleviate racism in one or two generations time.

Check and mate, mate.... I do admit I had conflated 10-20 years with "one or two generations time"
I stayed out of this mess for a few months to allow events to percolate.... there is no indication on the horizon that the flows of refugees will stop anytime soon. I DO agree that all of you who wish to help the refugees have high motivations, laudable goals and all that... assuming that's ALL that you wanted. Now, having a few more months of results... what do you think? I'm genuinely curious.
Last edited by cmdrjones on 2015-11-10 07:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

cmdrjones wrote:Check and mate, mate....
Last time I checked, "cure" and "alleviate" are two entirely different things.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
cmdrjones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2012-02-19 12:10pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cmdrjones »

Zaune wrote:Oh, do stop being silly. In ten years nobody will remember what the fuss was all about except the old git in the pub who's never happy unless he's got something to moan about.

I'm going to jot down this little gem as well. You wouldn't happen to live in Europe now would you Zaune?
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
cmdrjones
Jedi Knight
Posts: 715
Joined: 2012-02-19 12:10pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by cmdrjones »

Thanas wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Check and mate, mate....
Last time I checked, "cure" and "alleviate" are two entirely different things.

They are differences of degree, not of kind. I surmise that they will actually increase... A LOT.

Perhaps we should have a wager?
Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7429
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Zaune »

cmdrjones wrote:I'm going to jot down this little gem as well. You wouldn't happen to live in Europe now would you Zaune?
Yep. England, in fact.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

cmdrjones wrote:
Thanas wrote:
cmdrjones wrote:Check and mate, mate....
Last time I checked, "cure" and "alleviate" are two entirely different things.
They are differences of degree, not of kind.
A humongous difference, though. Ask a cancer patient.
I surmise that they will actually increase... A LOT.

Perhaps we should have a wager?
No, I've learned not to wager on SDN because last time I wagered something it took over a year to get something out of it.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Someone I talked to today claimed that sexual assault is massively on the rise in Europe as a result of the flow of refugees. When I looked this up, the only sources I found were clearly American right wing news sites. I suspect that is the origin of this claim. It is the argument that it is a question of either allowing gender equality of Muslim immigration. How much truth is there to these claims?
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4321
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Ralin »

Adam Reynolds wrote:Someone I talked to today claimed that sexual assault is massively on the rise in Europe as a result of the flow of refugees. When I looked this up, the only sources I found were clearly American right wing news sites. I suspect that is the origin of this claim. It is the argument that it is a question of either allowing gender equality of Muslim immigration. How much truth is there to these claims?
I'd be highly surprised if it were true, and if it were then I expect it would be slanted in favor of sexual assaults AGAINST refugees, most of them female or minors. I've heard stories like that before well before this whole thing started, mainly that some crazy high percentage of sexual assaults in some European countries (Sweden?) were committed by Muslim immigrants.

I mean, how much verification do you really need to conclude that stories about a massive upswing in sexual assault in the wake of large numbers of swarthy foreign people arriving are bullshit?
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: European refugee crisis thread

Post by Thanas »

There have been a few highly publicized cases of sexual assault, but I don't know how - or even if - they are representative. Probably not.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Post Reply