European refugee crisis thread

[Thanas]

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Germany to receive 750,000 asylum seekers this year, reports claim

Sources put numbers arriving in Germany far higher than previously expected, as UN warns it and Sweden are bearing brunt of migrant crisis

The number of people seeking asylum in Germany is predicted to soar to 750,000 this year according to reports, amid warnings by the United Nations that it and Sweden are unfairly bearing the brunt of Europe’s refugee burden.

Government sources told the business daily Handelsblatt the figures, which are due to be released by the interior minister, Thomas de Maizière, on Wednesday, are far higher than previously expected.

The leak came as the EU’s border agency, Frontex, said 107,500 migrants were detected at its frontiers last month, three times as many as in July 2014.

The swift increase in numbers to Germany, which has already received twice as many people in 2015 than it did last year – and many more than the 300,000 predicted at the start of this year – has taken Europe’s largest economy by surprise and left many towns and cities struggling to find adequate ways in which to feed and house the new arrivals.

From abandoned army barracks to the metal container “villages” that have been erected overnight everywhere from car parks to cemeteries, every available space is being utilised. In some places, refugees have been forced to sleep in the open air. Tent cities have sprung up in many communities, while school buildings and sports halls have also been commandeered. But with schools due to return soon and winter approaching, local authorities have been scrambling to find alternative arrangements, emphasising the exceptional nature of the challenge.

State administrations have also been calling for more federal aid to cope with demand and are largely dependent on volunteers.

The increase in refugees has been accompanied by a rise in racist crimes, especially in eastern Germany, with more than 200 incidents reported, including arson attacks and firebombings on migrants’ homes. On Sunday, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said the asylum crisis was even overshadowing the Greek crisis.

António Guterres, the UN high commissioner for refugees, called for greater solidarity among EU members and urged more countries to take in those fleeing war and persecution.

He said in an interview with newspaper Die Welt: “It is unsustainable in the long-run that only two EU countries – Germany and Sweden – take in the majority of refugees. All countries in Europe have the moral responsibility to welcome them and the clear legal obligation to protect them.”

Gerd Müller, the German development minister, called on Tuesday for the EU to appoint a European refugees commissioner and said it had to treat the problem with more urgency.

Sweden is bearing even more of the burden than Germany when measured according to population size. It received 81,300 asylum applications last year.

Thomas Oppermann, the chairman of the parliamentary group of the Social Democratic party – the junior coalition partner to Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union – said that while he had not seen the latest figures, he believed the number could climb to 800,000 based on the information he had.

Speaking to journalists on Tuesday, he said: “There has been a huge increase, not only in Europe, but in the whole of Germany. It would appear they’re no longer coming so much via the Mediterranean, but via the Balkans and Turkey. It’s our humanitarian duty to take them in, but we need to concentrate on those that need us most.”

Oppermann stressed that the refugees from Syria, Eritrea and Sudan were the most in need, and urged de Maizière to accelerate the decision-making process as to who is deserving of asylum. Almost half of the refugees have arrived from the Balkans, which is not considered an endangered region.

He suggested the situation was now so urgent and overwhelming, it had been necessary to bring civil servants out of retirement to help with the asylum process. Customs officials from the finance ministry have already been seconded to the national office for migration and refugees to help wade through a backlog of applications.

Oppermann said: “We should be reactivating pensioners who could earn some money by helping out to speed things up. We need unconventional measures in order to accommodate the refugees ... after all, we’re a rich country and we need to be in a situation where we can take in 500,000 or 750,000 people ... we need to knuckle down now.”

It is pretty disgraceful that some nations employs legions of bureaucratic tricks to not take in as many as they should (France) or just be outright racists (UK). At the same time, that number is inching close to 1% of the population each year. If this continues on, about 5% of the entire German population will be composed of refugees within the next four years, with all the challenges that brings. Would be nice if other nations could show some solidarity.

On the upside, this could help a bit with the demographic problem.

[The Romulan Republic]

I feel that their is a moral obligation for prosperous nations to help refugees as much as they are able to do so, though I'll credit Germany for doing as much as it has.

And it is a shame if other countries are not bearing their share of the burden. While Europe is, geographically, a more obvious choice for refugees fleeing the Middle East and Africa, I would like to see my own countries of Canada and America do more to help refugees. We are allies of Germany, after all.

[Broomstick]

Holy fuck, how is Germany supposed to take in, shelter, and somehow assimilate that many people?

The US - a much larger country both geographically and demographically - typically only takes in 70,000-80,000 per year, that's ten times the US annual refugee count per year, and nearly twice the 400,000+ legal immigrants to the US each year.

Again - how the fuck does Germany deal with this? You have twice the number of immigrants for what, 1/3 or 1/4 of the population?

I mean, kudos for the effort, it's amazing, but honestly, I don't think you can keep doing that year after year.

[The Romulan Republic]

Holy fuck, how is Germany supposed to take in, shelter, and somehow assimilate that many people?

The US - a much larger country both geographically and demographically - typically only takes in 70,000-80,000 per year, that's ten times the US annual refugee count per year, and nearly twice the 400,000+ legal immigrants to the US each year.

Again - how the fuck does Germany deal with this? You have twice the number of immigrants for what, 1/3 or 1/4 of the population?

I mean, kudos for the effort, it's amazing, but honestly, I don't think you can keep doing that year after year.

Of course, the US also has to deal with a vast amount of illegal immigration (though personally I think that we should just let them stay unless the individual is a real threat). But yeah, the US really could be doing more. You'd think we'd be their to assist an ally like Germany at a time like this. But immigration is an ugly issue in American politics, as in a lot of places.

[Broomstick]

The problem is that if the border is leaky enough that approximately 700,000 illegal immigrants arrive every year (which is a common estimate) it's leaky enough Bad People are getting through, too.

So the US is absorbing about 1.1 million new people per year. About 1% of the population. Proportionally, that's still less than what Germany is doing with just refugees (presumably, they have additional non-refugee immigrants as well).

And I'm not sure the US could truly do better - we're having some serious issues with employing and providing for people already here, adding more in won't make those problems better. Which is why I'm wondering why Germany should be expected to take in more and more, at some point taking more in makes the lifeboat more likely to start sinking.

[Thanas]

Holy fuck, how is Germany supposed to take in, shelter, and somehow assimilate that many people?

The US - a much larger country both geographically and demographically - typically only takes in 70,000-80,000 per year, that's ten times the US annual refugee count per year, and nearly twice the 400,000+ legal immigrants to the US each year.

Again - how the fuck does Germany deal with this? You have twice the number of immigrants for what, 1/3 or 1/4 of the population?

I mean, kudos for the effort, it's amazing, but honestly, I don't think you can keep doing that year after year.

Actually, we already have three times the immigration of the USA on 1/4th the population any given year. Yes, that's right. 1.2 million immigrants each year. This is the official English summary for 2013, just published this year. Makes for interesting reading.

BTW, this is why I always tend to chuckle when US politicians talk about "immigrants". Just scaling up the numbers to US niveau would mean a yearly legal immigration of ~14 million people a year into the USA. That is normal immigration for Germany and has been since the EU was formed.

Holy fuck, how is Germany supposed to take in, shelter, and somehow assimilate that many people?

We really don't have a choice.

Eastern Europe does shit - Poland has outright refused to do anything, xenophobes they are. Austria, Sweden, Italy and Greece are already doing as much as they can. The French, Spanish and Portugese drag their feet. UK meanwhile as usual does nothing except to tell the EU how to run everything better while refusing to pitch in and walling themselves off. Smaller states don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Welcome to Europe.

So the choices are either we do something or we just tell them to shove off and die somewhere not on our TV screens. Of course, this creates a negative feedback loop where everybody tries to get to Germany, but what the heck are we supposed to do? Just blather on about freedom and wealth and then go "fuck off we're full?".

We've handled worse in the past, we can handle this. For now. If however the situation gets worse in Africa and the middle east, then we will have to impose some system on Europe, or otherwise shut the door.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit: And we need that number of immigrants per year just to manage to fill the free jobs anyway. Our industry is always bitching about having less people than necessary.

[Dominus Atheos]

Actually, we already have three times the immigration of the USA on 1/4th the population any given year. Yes, that's right. 1.2 million immigrants each year. This is the official English summary for 2013, just published this year. Makes for interesting reading.

Did we read the same paper? The paper I read said that 708,000 of those immigrants were from other EU countries, and also that 797,886 people (total) emigrated from Germany in the same year. Really, saying "Germany has 1.2 million immigrants each year" is a lot like saying "Manhattan has 1.5 million immigrants every day."

[Thanas]

Actually, we already have three times the immigration of the USA on 1/4th the population any given year. Yes, that's right. 1.2 million immigrants each year. This is the official English summary for 2013, just published this year. Makes for interesting reading.

Did we read the same paper? The paper I read said that 708,000 of those immigrants were from other EU countries,

So? Still makes them immigrants. Immigrants from Canada are still immigrants to the USA. Especially considering that there is a heck of more cultural difference being an immigrant from Bulgaria to Germany than the above-mentioned example.

[Dominus Atheos]

Yes, and if the US and Canada were both part of the "Calgary Area" and had agreed to abolish passports and border controls, and had signed the "St. Louis treaty" basically abolishing nearly anything approaching single country citizenship; then migration between those two countries would be relevant to a discussion about migration between Poland and Germany.

When California and Texas talk about their immigration problems, no one ever includes the number of US citizens coming from other US states.

[Dominus Atheos]

But maybe this is just a translation issue, or even a semantics debate. I object to the term "immigrants" being used to describe EU citizens moving around the EU, because that term is almost never used to describe movement between the American States, or (afaik) between the British Countries, Canadian Provinces, or Australian Territories.

[K. A. Pital]

But Thanas why people have to stay in their poor shitholes if they are EU citizens? They are free! Indeed, as EU officials said (perhaps the only sensible thing) freedom of movement is non-negotiable. What are you, Cameron Jr?

Should you not be happy that almost a million people escaped the poverty and misery of shitty periphery countries?

[The Romulan Republic]

But maybe this is just a translation issue, or even a semantics debate. I object to the term "immigrants" being used to describe EU citizens moving around the EU, because that term is almost never used to describe movement between the American States, or (afaik) between the British Countries, Canadian Provinces, or Australian Territories.

The difference is that the EU is not actually one united country, but a close alliance/union of distinct sovereign nations, correct?

[Dominus Atheos]

No, the EU has a concept called the "Single Market".

The cornerstones of the single market are often said to be the “four freedoms” – the free movement of people, goods, services and capital.

For the purposes of those 4 things; Goods, services, capital, and free movement of people, the EU is supposed to be considered all one market.

[The Romulan Republic]

That doesn't change the fact that the EU's members are still separate countries. I'm not disputing that people have the right to move within the EU. Its a policy I approve of. However, EU members are still officially separate countries, so one can see why people might regard going to a different EU member as immigration when they wouldn't do the same for the US and Canada.

[FTeik]

But Thanas why people have to stay in their poor shitholes if they are EU citizens? They are free! Indeed, as EU officials said (perhaps the only sensible thing) freedom of movement is non-negotiable. What are you, Cameron Jr?

Should you not be happy that almost a million people escaped the poverty and misery of shitty periphery countries?

Did I miss the memo when Syria, Iraq, Eretrea, ect. became members of the EU?

Aside from that, the places where these people emmigrate from will stay shitty periphery countries, if their best and brightest come to us (while people fleeing from war and persecution are a different matter).

[Edi]

No, the EU has a concept called the "Single Market".

The cornerstones of the single market are often said to be the “four freedoms” – the free movement of people, goods, services and capital.

For the purposes of those 4 things; Goods, services, capital, and free movement of people, the EU is supposed to be considered all one market.

One market, several different nations and several very different cultures. Compared to the EU, the US in all its regional variety is a fucking monoculture, so you should consider maybe looking into the issue a bit more before you go and spout nonsense about stuff you clearly know little about.

Of the various EU countries, I've been to Sweden, Norway, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. Of these, Sweden and Norway are culturally very similar, so they can be more or less lumped together. The rest of them have very different cultures. There are similarities between Spain, Portugal and Italy, but there are also a great number of differences, so it's best not to assume too much about one based on your experiences in another.

Each of these countries also has their own language, so when you go from one to another, you will not be able to understand the people living there unless you either speak their language or you have a different language in common.

This means that if you move from one country to another in Europe, you will be moving into a different culture and a different language population, so immigration is very much the proper term.

[Lord Revan]

What Edi said, hell the difference between Sweden and Finland is already quite large and we're right next each other with near constant co-operation.

Oh and Estonia is an EU country too and dispite being linguistically closer to Finland then any other EU country is very different culturally

[Iroscato]

Man, this pisses me off. They're human fucking beings, not plague-ridden rats, but my country treats them one and the same.

[LaCroix]

Austria is also expecting 80k refugees this year (1% of population). Quite frankly, we have no idea how we are going to deal with it. We already took 30k and already have no place left to house them wile they still stream across the borders day by day...

[Mange]

What Edi said, hell the difference between Sweden and Finland is already quite large and we're right next each other with near constant co-operation.

Oh and Estonia is an EU country too and dispite being linguistically closer to Finland then any other EU country is very different culturally

And not to forget that Finland was an integral part of Sweden for over 600 years and there are still such differences.

[Tiriol]

Of the various EU countries, I've been to Sweden, Norway, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece. Of these, Sweden and Norway are culturally very similar, so they can be more or less lumped together. The rest of them have very different cultures. There are similarities between Spain, Portugal and Italy, but there are also a great number of differences, so it's best not to assume too much about one based on your experiences in another.

Nitpick: Norway isn't an EU member.

[Edi]

*facepalm*

Indeed. I was thinking somewhere along the lines of Europe = EU and I blame that on being tired after the long walk today. We can swap Norway for Denmark WRT the cultural similarity issue, though I have not visited Denmark. Oh, and of course I have visited Estonia. Yes, similar language to ours but entirely different culturally in many respects.

[Welf]

But Thanas why people have to stay in their poor shitholes if they are EU citizens? They are free! Indeed, as EU officials said (perhaps the only sensible thing) freedom of movement is non-negotiable. What are you, Cameron Jr?

Should you not be happy that almost a million people escaped the poverty and misery of shitty periphery countries?

And where does Thanas say that they should stay home? He just pointed out that the burden isn't shared equally.

Man, this pisses me off. They're human fucking beings, not plague-ridden rats, but my country treats them one and the same.

Yes they are humans. Which means they need housing, education, health care, social services, job training. It means communities have to integrate a lot of newcomers, losing social cohesion. And the people who have to pay the most are the poor people in the home countries, because they compete for the same apartments and jobs, and thus have to pay more rent and earn less. And there are also the political and cultural issues, with a huge influx of people who have different values and are not integrated into the political system. These are real problems, and need to be acknowledged and addressed.

[K. A. Pital]

Belgium, for example, already has ~10% of EU-27 migrants in population. France is moving towards what, 6 or 7%, I heard. Luxembourg has more than half of its population as EU-27. That's united Europe, isn't it? That's the equalization about which everyone was dreaming.

The burden isn't "shared equally" because maybe EU-27 citizens head to whatever nation they find more friendly and more well-off, instead of choosing the first nation on the list randomly.

Hell, some EU nations themselves are depopulated by the center-pull, how are they supposed to "share the burden"?

It's one thing to say other nations aren't taking enough refugees - true, they aren't, which is deplorable considering the Middle Eastern crisis. It's a totally different thing to suggest the EU citizens should go to other nations. One of the reasons to have the EU passport is to be able to freely travel, freely take up jobs and freely live across the EU. In fact, that's one of the few redeeming features of the whole project in my eyes. For equality and great justice, heh.