Japan falsified Whaling data

[Thanas]

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... aling-data

Japanese whaling fleets have been accused of systematically falsifying data on the number and size of sperm whales they killed in the late 1960s, calling into question our understanding of current whale populations.

A study has compared official Japanese whaling data submitted to the International Whaling Commission (IWC) with formerly secret internal Soviet whaling industry reports. The findings suggest the Japanese caught large amounts of small illegal-sized whales, but reported these as lower numbers of larger whales – for example, counting two smaller whales as one legal-sized animal.

Our understanding of how whales recover from being hunted is dependent on determining a ‘baseline’ whale population, from before widespread whaling.

Since this is based on historical catch data, the Japanese misreporting could have a significant impact on our knowledge of how whale numbers react to whaling, suggests Andrew Brierley, a marine ecologist at the Scottish Oceans Institute, University of St Andrews.

“If there’s been unreported catches, then we don’t know how many whales have been taken from the population,” he said. “This could mean our understanding of how the population is responding to fishing could be wrong.”

760,000 sperm whales were killed in the 20th century, with some 315,000 caught in the North Pacific alone. The vast majority of these were hunted by Japanese and Soviet fleets.

It is well known that Soviet whaling fleets lied to the IWC in official reports in the 1960s and ‘70s. However, industry documentation, declassified in the 1990s, has provided accurate data on Soviet catch statistics.

Researchers at the National Marine Mammal Laboratory in Alaska compared this accurate Soviet data with the official data the Japanese submitted to the IWC in 1968-69. In particular, they compared the number of legal-sized female sperm whales – those over 11.6m in length – reported by both countries.

The findings, published in the journal Royal Society Open Science on Wednesday, showed the Japanese reported catching 15 times more legal-sized female sperm whales than the Russians, despite fishing the same seas at the same time, and the Soviets having a larger fleet. Japanese figures reported that 97.3% of the females they caught were of a legal size, compared to just 6.6% of the females the Soviets caught.

The authors conclude that such disparity is just not possible, and indicates extensive and intentional misreporting of the killing of sperm whales by Japanese fleets at the time.

The apparent deception was made possible as whaling was not subject to independent inspection until the introduction of an International Observer Scheme, set up by the IWC in 1972. After this, falsifying catch data became more difficult, although there are still reports of international observers failing to report infractions, either through distraction or direct collusion.

Given the ease and temptation to misreport catch data, the scientists suggest any future whaling activities should be monitored by a comprehensive and transparent independent observer scheme, a finding supported by Brierley.

“We have to have faith that the numbers reported today are those that are caught,” he said. “But unless you have an independent observer on the boat, it’s very hard to know.”

All the more reason to act against them and not trust their word.

[Venator]

All the more reason to act against them and not trust their word.

What, realistically, are the options in this case? Economic sanctions, tariffs, etc.? From what I understand Japan already pisses over things like "protected waters".

The kneejerk reaction might be "declare Japanese whaling vessels open season for navies and privateers", but something actually sane. Particularly considering any actions become precedent for transgressions by folks like Norway and especially Russia.

[Elheru Aran]

Plus it's notable that this new information is fairly old-- at least 20+ years, if not 40. What are you going to do about information that old? Try to find and punish the responsible parties? Are they even going to still be alive? I'm sure some of them are, but there has to be a realistic statue of limitations.

The problem, if I'm reading the article right, is that the misreporting of data by the Japanese and Soviets will skew our modern estimates of whale population, potentially lowering numbers even more than they are now. It might be incentive to push for a total ban on whaling in that case.

[Purple]

And if there is a ban how would you enforce it? You can't seriously expect anyone to engage in sanctions against Japan.

[Thanas]

Well, one could dispatch a vessel to monitor their whaling fleet to ensure they don't engage in illegal whaling.

This will also be a further blow to Japan getting through the IWC with their updated plans.

Other than that, one would have to take it or fund groups like Sea Shepherd.

[Purple]

Well, one could dispatch a vessel to monitor their whaling fleet to ensure they don't engage in illegal whaling.

This will also be a further blow to Japan getting through the IWC with their updated plans.

And what would that accomplish? I was not asking how you can detect Japan breaking the rules. I was asking what kind of leverage you think is plausible to apply against them to make them stop.

Other than that, one would have to take it or fund groups like Sea Shepherd.

So funding eco terrorists? What happens when Japan has enough of those and just starts sinking their ships? Or when a Japanese whaler has enough and brings a hunting rifle to sea to shoot them?

[Elheru Aran]

Leverage? Not a whole lot. It would take serious economic and political sanctions and those don't really play well against a country with such a diverse trading net as Japan. That country has always been historically isolationist; they simply don't care about what other countries really think about them, although publicly they try to not 'lose face'.

So essentially one would have to get some of the stronger naval nations to monitor the Japanese whaling fleet and prevent them from whaling for a season or two. This would be certain to create a massive PR stink as it would have distinct undertones of imperialism-- not something anybody wants laying around.

[Alyrium Denryle]

So funding eco terrorists? What happens when Japan has enough of those and just starts sinking their ships? Or when a Japanese whaler has enough and brings a hunting rifle to sea to shoot them?

They are not eco-terrorists. The worst you can call them are Illegal-Direct-Activists, or Vigilantes. They dont engage in the use of violence or terror to coerce public opinion or extract concessions. They throw smelly substances and disable machinery as a means of enforcing existing laws, or to stop actions they deem unconscionable.

They are also the only game in town when it comes to stopping japanese whaling because no one else is going to anything but endlessly winge.

[Ziggy Stardust]

The worst you can call them are Illegal-Direct-Activists, or Vigilantes.

Or "liars." That works, too. But yeah, definitely not "eco terrorists" in any useful sense of the phrase.

[mr friendly guy]

So funding eco terrorists? What happens when Japan has enough of those and just starts sinking their ships? Or when a Japanese whaler has enough and brings a hunting rifle to sea to shoot them?

Hunting rifle vs stink bombs. I think the bad PR for Japan would cause them pause here.

On another note, Sea Shepherd actually gets results. The Japanese cut short their whaling, and report a catch lower than their quota. It gets worse when one year Japan actually admitted albeit in an oblique that the decrease catch was due to Sea Shepherd, something everyone else could see.

[TimothyC]

So funding eco terrorists? What happens when Japan has enough of those and just starts sinking their ships? Or when a Japanese whaler has enough and brings a hunting rifle to sea to shoot them?

They are not eco-terrorists. The worst you can call them are Illegal-Direct-Activists, or Vigilantes.

I could call them Pirates for having been caught illegally flying the White Ensign. Yarr.

[Beowulf]

So funding eco terrorists? What happens when Japan has enough of those and just starts sinking their ships? Or when a Japanese whaler has enough and brings a hunting rifle to sea to shoot them?

They are not eco-terrorists. The worst you can call them are Illegal-Direct-Activists, or Vigilantes.

I could call them Pirates for having been caught illegally flying the White Ensign. Yarr.

I would call them pirates for being armed and forcefully boarding another ship.

[Flagg]

I don't give a shit what those "Sea Shepherd" idiots do since the Japanese, as has been noted, routinely ignore laws and protected waters in order to hunt, oh I'm sorry, "study" whale species that are considered endangered and protected. I think NATO ships should routinely board and inspect Japanese whaling, oh sorry, "science" ships and dump whale meat overboard.

If they refuse to be boarded or use weapons (including the ships themselves) against NATO ships and/or boarding parties, well, big mistake, hope you have lifeboats and survival suits since your ship is going to the bottom of the ocean after being given 20 minutes warning to abandon it. Of course rescue of the Japanese sailors is top priority since I'm sure the water they hunt in is extremely cold.

But really, a message needs to be sent by the international community that whales are protected. If only the international community would do the same for shark finning, which is just as bad, IMO.

[moglwi]

Only Japanese navel/coastguard ships can board Japanese flag merchant ships without the permission of the Japanese govt they are not likly to give that

[Solauren]

Easy enough to deal with.

Tell them to stop whaling period (and offer to compensate them for the lost revenue/economic impact from those jobs disappearing).
If they don't, UN sanctions on the level of Iran/Cuba.

Most of the Japanese people don't care about whaling anymore. It runs do to tradition. The threat of UN sanctions will have the people going bat-shit on the government over it.

[Purple]

Are you two guys for real? Attacking their ships? Killing people? Sanctions? Japan isn't some unimportant 3rd world nation that you can treat like that. Certainly not over whales. A nation of their standing in the world is routinely allowed to get away with much more including human rights violations left and right. And you seriously want to fabricate an international crisis over it?

[Steve]

It's probably from the sheer depth of Japan's flouting of international law.

[Purple]

It's probably from the sheer depth of Japan's flouting of international law.

It is bad, I won't deny it. But we have to be realistic here. International law is after all primarily a stick used to beat small nations with so that they conform with the colonial ambitions of superpowers. Any nations not small enough to suffer that can and do get away with stuff. That's just how it is.

[Grumman]

If they don't, UN sanctions on the level of Iran/Cuba.

*sigh*

Why are there so many idiots these days looking for an excuse to throw economic interdependence under the bus? Do you not understand that this is your nuclear option and should not be spent lightly? If Japan starts talking about invading China again, then threatening to cut all economic ties with the outside world is warranted. Not before.

[AniThyng]

A lot of countries I think will laugh at the idea of UN sanctions for the sake of whales backed by countries that waged an illegal war in the middle east that killed humans

[Flagg]

Are you two guys for real? Attacking their ships? Killing people? Sanctions? Japan isn't some unimportant 3rd world nation that you can treat like that. Certainly not over whales. A nation of their standing in the world is routinely allowed to get away with much more including human rights violations left and right. And you seriously want to fabricate an international crisis over it?

Killing people? Where did I suggest killing people? If the Japanese ships doing the illegal activity attempt to repel UN sanctioned (I think I said NATO before, being an idiot, meant the UN) inspection crews sent to make sure that they are complying with their own bullshit standards, then they get ample warning to abandon ship before it's sunk. Then priority 1 is rescue of the Japanese crew. After that I'd imagine they get sent home in hilarious disgrace or are tried by the world community for not complying with international law. But I never suggested killing anyone. I mean whales are all special, intelligent, and majestic, blah blah blah, but I still value human life more.

As far as "fabricating an international crisis", last I checked Japan actually does illegally hunt whales for meat rather than scientific study only, as they claim. This isn't George Bush searching high and low for Iraqi WMD around the Whitehouse after starting a war of aggression where it turned out that everything he and his minions said was total horseshit. And Russia, which is much more powerful and dangerous than Japan thanks to thousands upon thousands of nukes, is getting sanctioned pretty hard right now.

A lot of countries I think will laugh at the idea of UN sanctions for the sake of whales backed by countries that waged an illegal war in the middle east that killed humans

And they would be right to do so, to a point. But at the end of the day Japan is still flouting international law, to my understanding. Just because the US swung it's dick the wrong way (once more ), doesn't mean you get to automatically discount everything they point to as illegal. But I would say a country like the US, which is still recovering from crotch burns due to it's pants having been on white hot fire should be required to present a higher standard of evidence.

[Purple]

Killing people? Where did I suggest killing people?

I know that is not what you want intentionally. But that is what will happen if we go down your path.

If the Japanese ships doing the illegal activity attempt to repel UN sanctioned (I think I said NATO before, being an idiot, meant the UN) inspection crews sent to make sure that they are complying with their own bullshit standards, then they get ample warning to abandon ship before it's sunk.

Using UN sanctioned ships instead OTAN does make more sense. I'll give you that. But sinking their ships won't end well. What do you think will happen when people refuse to leave thinking they can stave off the insane lunatic inspectors from destroying their livelihood? People have fought to the death for less.

Then priority 1 is rescue of the Japanese crew. After that I'd imagine they get sent home in hilarious disgrace or are tried by the world community for not complying with international law. But I never suggested killing anyone. I mean whales are all special, intelligent, and majestic, blah blah blah, but I still value human life more.

Thing is, people will die. This is the Japanese we are talking about. People with far less cultural baggage have chained them self to trees that they have no reliance for survival on to save them from the evil lumberjack. What do you think will happen when someone whose life and income depends on sailing is told that they are going to blow up his boat and all his earnings with it? People will chain them self to boats, fire back at the inspectors, ram the inspectors, try to flee when they see them and do all sorts of crazy things. And people will die. Or at the very least things will get very messy and provoke a massive international incident.

As far as "fabricating an international crisis", last I checked Japan actually does illegally hunt whales for meat rather than scientific study only, as they claim. This isn't George Bush searching high and low for Iraqi WMD around the Whitehouse after starting a war of aggression where it turned out that everything he and his minions said was total horseshit. And Russia, which is much more powerful and dangerous than Japan thanks to thousands upon thousands of nukes, is getting sanctioned pretty hard right now.

A crisis takes two. Japan does the things it does because it knows that frankly a bunch of whales are not important enough for the world to react in a way that will produce an international crisis. We like importing Japanese cars and playing Japanese video games and buying what ever else it is Japan sells and selling stuff to Japan (and OTAN in particular loves the American base in Japan) enough that those whales are a sacrifice we are willing to make. The moment this stops being the case Japan will stop on their own. But short of WW3 or a massive crash to end all crashes it won't be the case.

* Note WE refers to the western world.

[blowfish]

Plus it's notable that this new information is fairly old-- at least 20+ years, if not 40. What are you going to do about information that old? Try to find and punish the responsible parties? Are they even going to still be alive? I'm sure some of them are, but there has to be a realistic statue of limitations.

The problem, if I'm reading the article right, is that the misreporting of data by the Japanese and Soviets will skew our modern estimates of whale population, potentially lowering numbers even more than they are now. It might be incentive to push for a total ban on whaling in that case.

What are the Japanese catching right now, aside from Minke whales, bycatch, and possibly "bycatch"?

[Thanas]

endangered fin whales, for one.

[Flagg]

Killing people? Where did I suggest killing people?

I know that is not what you want intentionally. But that is what will happen if we go down your path.

If the Japanese ships doing the illegal activity attempt to repel UN sanctioned (I think I said NATO before, being an idiot, meant the UN) inspection crews sent to make sure that they are complying with their own bullshit standards, then they get ample warning to abandon ship before it's sunk.

Using UN sanctioned ships instead OTAN does make more sense. I'll give you that. But sinking their ships won't end well. What do you think will happen when people refuse to leave thinking they can stave off the insane lunatic inspectors from destroying their livelihood? People have fought to the death for less.

Then priority 1 is rescue of the Japanese crew. After that I'd imagine they get sent home in hilarious disgrace or are tried by the world community for not complying with international law. But I never suggested killing anyone. I mean whales are all special, intelligent, and majestic, blah blah blah, but I still value human life more.

Thing is, people will die. This is the Japanese we are talking about. People with far less cultural baggage have chained them self to trees that they have no reliance for survival on to save them from the evil lumberjack. What do you think will happen when someone whose life and income depends on sailing is told that they are going to blow up his boat and all his earnings with it? People will chain them self to boats, fire back at the inspectors, ram the inspectors, try to flee when they see them and do all sorts of crazy things. And people will die. Or at the very least things will get very messy and provoke a massive international incident.

As far as "fabricating an international crisis", last I checked Japan actually does illegally hunt whales for meat rather than scientific study only, as they claim. This isn't George Bush searching high and low for Iraqi WMD around the Whitehouse after starting a war of aggression where it turned out that everything he and his minions said was total horseshit. And Russia, which is much more powerful and dangerous than Japan thanks to thousands upon thousands of nukes, is getting sanctioned pretty hard right now.

A crisis takes two. Japan does the things it does because it knows that frankly a bunch of whales are not important enough for the world to react in a way that will produce an international crisis. We like importing Japanese cars and playing Japanese video games and buying what ever else it is Japan sells and selling stuff to Japan (and OTAN in particular loves the American base in Japan) enough that those whales are a sacrifice we are willing to make. The moment this stops being the case Japan will stop on their own. But short of WW3 or a massive crash to end all crashes it won't be the case.

* Note WE refers to the western world.

So people will die because the Japanese are crazies who don't value life like us white western people do? And if we (the entire international community through the UN) say "no, we're not going to let you." That's a bad thing because you like the stuff we import from Japan?