Shep's South Africa Babbling (split from Saddam/Key to Detro

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Iceberg
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Post by Iceberg » 2003-03-31 10:02am

Fascism and communism are two separate strains of the same disease.

I'm guessing the only reason things look worse now is that now white people are just as bad off as black people (when 80% of the country lives in abject poverty, there's something severely wrong). Fuck you.
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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2003-03-31 10:08am

Iceberg wrote:Fascism and communism are two separate strains of the same disease.

I'm guessing the only reason things look worse now is that now white people are just as bad off as black people (when 80% of the country lives in abject poverty, there's something severely wrong). Fuck you.
So its better when the country is starving and everyone is equally poor and unemployed then to have a nation that’s a food exporter with something of a middle and upper class who provide employment for the rest?
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Post by Queeb Salaron » 2003-03-31 12:31pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:So its better when the country is starving and everyone is equally poor and unemployed then to have a nation that’s a food exporter with something of a middle and upper class who provide employment for the rest?
And have the middle and upper classes make money off the work that the lower classes do while they themselves work shorter hours for more money? Sounds fair to me. :roll:
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Post by MKSheppard » 2003-03-31 01:14pm

Iceberg wrote: OK, so you read a website run by a guy who had been doing pretty well under the old regime, that's critical of the current one. And you obviously lack the critical reading/thinking skills to figure out why this guy might not be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help him God.
Then tell me why the ZANU/PF would mine roadways used by both whites
AND blacks indiscriminately with soviet antipersonnel/anti-tank mines.
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Post by MKSheppard » 2003-03-31 01:16pm

Iceberg wrote: And you obviously lack the critical reading/thinking skills to figure out why this guy might not be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help him God.
:roll:

First of all, fuck you, Iceberg.

Second of all, he had scans from the ZANU/PF's own fucking newspaper,
which showed people how to fucking tune in to Radio Moscow for
'unbiased news', and the paper covered the ZANU/PF' leaders'
visit to fucking moscow, for international solidarity
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Post by MKSheppard » 2003-03-31 02:25pm

http://www.africancrisis.org/photos7.asp

1+ MB of images, but very informative

Image

Below is a Liberation Magazine called The Zimbabwe Review. It is the mouthpiece of the ANC (African National Congress - of Zimbabwe)

Image
Take a look above where I drew some big red arrows. There you will see they had offices in Cuba and East Germany. They like communists...

Image
They advise their black readers to listen to Radio Berlin. Read t
he paragraph which is headed "Keeps you up to date on". Note it
mentions "peace, national liberation and social liberation" - in
other words... Communism...

*****

Joshua Nkomo led ZAPU which was sponsored by Russia.

Robert Mugabe led Zanu(PF) which was sponsored by China.

Nkomo authorised the shooting down of civilian airliners. In the
late 1970's his terrorists used hand-held missile launchers to shoot
down two Rhodesian airways Viscount turbo-prop planes, each
containing about 50 holiday-makers.

The heat-seeking missiles struck the aircraft engines. The one plane crashed into the bush and hit a gully and broke into pieces.
Everyone was killed. The other crash-landed in the African bush.

The civilians survived their ordeal. However, the terrorists knew the
flight paths and had estimated where the plane would crash and they
had a team on the ground which went to the plane. They found
the survivors and KILLED THEM ALL!!

Then Mr Nkomo appeared on BBC TV with a huge smile, literally
jumping out of his skin from sheer delight, taking responsibility for
this cold-blooded slaughter of innocent civilians.

But in Africa, terrorism can be good for a political career. It sort of
proves that you are fit to rule... Africa's Bin Laden went on to
greater things. In the 1980's after a power struggle with Robert Mugabe,
he was promoted to the Vice-President of Zimbabwe. He held this
position until he died.
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Post by Axis Kast » 2003-03-31 03:37pm

Incidentially, I too read Rhodesian websites. Yet I know where to draw the line.

Rhodesians are all well and good - until you get to the part where all native Africans are domestic servants or farm hands.

Read Rhodesian websites as you would any primary source - with a grain of salt.

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Post by Ignorant twit » 2003-03-31 04:47pm

Iceberg it looks worse now because it IS worse now. South Africa now has the third highest murder rate in the world (behind such paragons of virtue as Colombia and Swaziland). Of course the 30% AIDS infection and 40% unemployment aren't great either.

I mean seriously when crime is this bad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/230000/im ... car300.jpg

one can hardly call the state successful.

While the old SA regime itself sucked, the current regime has watched over the death of a nation. There is something to be said for the trains running on time.

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Post by Axis Kast » 2003-03-31 04:55pm

Mandela, Mugabe, Nkomo, and Mbeki are all reprehensible public figures.

But what would you be saying right now if South Africa were still under white rule? Or Rhodesia?

Some Palestinians take pleasure in destroying school buses. People try to reason that out and come up with, "Well, they struck a blow they think will help crack the regimé from within." Now that's not say both actions aren't horrible and all involved in the plotting deserve severe punishment, but it sheds new light on the situation.

South Africa was acceptable and defensible only as a bulwark against Communism. When the Soviet Union collapsed, it was no longer necessary to uphold the white regimé.

You look down on the South Africa of today and argue that it is only mired in despair and disaster. But that was also true of the Homelands and townships, Sheppard. You just didn't see it as much.

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Post by Setzer » 2003-03-31 05:40pm

What is it with Africa? They seem to be incapable of creating a developed democracy.
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Post by Axis Kast » 2003-03-31 07:36pm

It's a case of improper exposure and a failure to lay down the correct kind of economic infrastructure.

Democracy doesn't work well without money. It's really why South Africa, Kenya, and Tanzania are the only worthwhile democracies on the face of the African continent - they've simply got the cash.

When democracies "knok out" financially, dictatorships - themselves based on ridiculous promises - rise instead.

And you're also talking about a part of the world fundamentally different from ours. Tribe and clan still mean something more than federa government and nationalistic identity. It's very foreign from your or my point of view.

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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2003-03-31 07:39pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:So its better when the country is starving and everyone is equally poor and unemployed then to have a nation that’s a food exporter with something of a middle and upper class who provide employment for the rest?
And have the middle and upper classes make money off the work that the lower classes do while they themselves work shorter hours for more money? Sounds fair to me. :roll:
Sounds better then the alternative, which is the whites and blacks being unemployed and the nation starving. Which BTW is exactly what's happening.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2003-04-02 02:41am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Queeb Salaron wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:So its better when the country is starving and everyone is equally poor and unemployed then to have a nation that’s a food exporter with something of a middle and upper class who provide employment for the rest?
And have the middle and upper classes make money off the work that the lower classes do while they themselves work shorter hours for more money? Sounds fair to me. :roll:
Sounds better then the alternative, which is the whites and blacks being unemployed and the nation starving. Which BTW is exactly what's happening.


I trust you do not advocate a return to segrigation and the out and out racism that made their prosperity possible?.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2003-04-02 02:51am

Stuart Mackey wrote: I trust you do not advocate a return to segrigation and the out and out racism that made their prosperity possible?.
Well, if the previous government could have prevented the AIDS epidemic from spreading through the population - which it had the capability to do, so it would be a question of recognition and will - then I would actually support it's having continued. Now that's it is already gone and AIDS is already there, the best hope is for a true and multiethnic democracy to arise out the mess of the collapse of the old regime before AIDS totally annihilates the population, though.

So I wouldn't support the return of the old regime - Though I can't speak for Sea Skimmer. All things considered, I might very well wish it had continued, on the condition that it did more for AIDS than its successor has. Better to live under apartheid than die a slow multi-year agonizing death of AIDS. But it is definitely conditional on the apartheid regime reacting to AIDS, which is (unfortunately) an unknowable.
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Post by Oberleutnant » 2003-04-02 03:52am

Axis Kast wrote:Democracy doesn't work well without money. It's really why South Africa, Kenya, and Tanzania are the only worthwhile democracies on the face of the African continent - they've simply got the cash.
Egypt under Musharaf has been making strong progress as well, hasn't it?
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Post by Edi » 2003-04-02 03:54am

Musharraf rules in Pakistan, it's Hosni Mubarak who's the president of Egypt...

And while there might have been progress there, it still doesn't look good by a long shot.

Edi

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Post by Oberleutnant » 2003-04-02 04:41am

I guess thinking is allowed when posting messages... *bangs his head against the wall*
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Post by Posbi » 2003-04-02 06:00am

Iceberg wrote:Incidentally, why am I extremely unsuprised that Shep likes the old, fascist, governments of South Africa and Rhodesia?
Because they worked well?

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Post by Posbi » 2003-04-02 06:02am

Oberleutnant wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:Democracy doesn't work well without money. It's really why South Africa, Kenya, and Tanzania are the only worthwhile democracies on the face of the African continent - they've simply got the cash.
Egypt under Musharaf has been making strong progress as well, hasn't it?
Would be news to me, but then I don't keep track on how mayn shabby huts they build there.

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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2003-04-02 06:20am

Posbi wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Incidentally, why am I extremely unsuprised that Shep likes the old, fascist, governments of South Africa and Rhodesia?
Because they worked well?
Well if you like the use of virtual slave labour, rampant racism with a truck load of hypocracy mixed in..then sure they worked well.
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Post by K. A. Pital » 2003-04-02 06:26am

Stuart Mackey
Well if you like the use of virtual slave labour, rampant racism with a truck load of hypocracy mixed in..then sure they worked well.
Effectiveness has nothing to do with humanity. The most inhumane regimes were also the most effective ones.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2003-04-02 06:40am

Stas Bush wrote:Stuart Mackey
Well if you like the use of virtual slave labour, rampant racism with a truck load of hypocracy mixed in..then sure they worked well.
Effectiveness has nothing to do with humanity. The most inhumane regimes were also the most effective ones.
Lol, so you want to explain the mess that Russia is in?.
Effectiveness has everything to do with humanity..those who are not humane die, in case you missed what happned to Hitler and what will happen to Sadam.
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Post by K. A. Pital » 2003-04-02 07:32am

Stuart Mackey
Obviously you did not get the point, or you did not know that the industrial spin-up of Germany is the result of Hitler's reign? The Third Reich was brought down not due to the inhumane policies of nazism, but due to agressive policies of Hitler and the resulting war breakout.
Specifically on the Soviet regime: it's problem was the economical system of socialism, which brought it to an utter failure, not the inhumane policies of the state, which people endured for about 70 years.
So it's not a matter of cruel policies, and obviouslt death of the dictator doesn't mean the breakup of the state.
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Post by Axis Kast » 2003-04-02 10:53am

Stats, it is a fact that the most free societies in the world are generally the best-off economically. When happiest, most free, and best-educated, you are also the most-productive.

Hitler's "control economy" backfired. He did well, but rampant hatred of people like the Jews and extreme paranoia that allies would steal secrets of production also terrified him into setting self-imposed limits.
Egypt under Musharaf has been making strong progress as well, hasn't it?
Musharaf leads a powder keg. He's riding democracy, not doing much else. He's got to placate a bunch of hardliners.

I suppose, if you want to get very technical, it's a success, though I don't really think Egypt's a democracy anyway - even on the level of Kenya or Tanzania.

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Post by Shaka[Zulu] » 2003-04-03 04:05am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Better to live under apartheid than die a slow multi-year agonizing death of AIDS. But it is definitely conditional on the apartheid regime reacting to AIDS, which is (unfortunately) an unknowable.
um, I hate to say this duchess, but given the nature of the problem -- that HIV was (and still is) running rampant principally among the previously disposessed ethnicities, it is highly doubtful that the apartheid regime would have done ANYTHING but sweep it under the rug, and treat those few whites that were unlucky enough to get it -- after all in those days 'race mixing' was a very serious offense -- the possibility of proper white women (any white women) having brown babies was too horrifying to permit. The logic behind such a strategy would be to keep the underclasses even more effectively subjugated.

now, at least, everything is more equal. I still have certain reservations however about exactly how much of a health risk the african HIV strain is compared to the indo-asian and euro-american -- from a great many of the statistics Ive been hearing (and I really question the accuracy of all these infection rate statistics), it would seem that people should be dropping like flies over there considering the wholly pitiful health care the average person has, yet populations are growing, and growing older as well.
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