Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boycott

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Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boycott

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http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/religious-fr ... aw-indiana
Bucking intense criticism from citizens, celebrities, tech leaders, and convention customers, Indiana’s Republican Gov. Mike Pence quietly signed a controversial religious freedom bill into law on Thursday. Opponents warn the measure will sanction discrimination against LGBT people, and cost the Hoosier State millions in tourism revenue.

“Today I signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, because I support the freedom of religion for every Hoosier of every faith,” the governor said in a statement released shortly after he signed Senate Bill 101, otherwise known as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA.) “The Constitution of the United States and the Indiana Constitution both provide strong recognition of the freedom of religion but today, many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action.”

The new law will prohibit a governmental entity from substantially burdening a person’s religious beliefs, unless that entity can prove it’s relying on the least restrictive means possible to further a compelling governmental interest. It’s modeled off of the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which gained notoriety in the Supreme Court’s controversial Hobby Lobby ruling last year. That decision found that closely-held corporations wouldn’t have to comply with the Affordable Care Act’s contraception mandate if the owners had a sincerely-held religious objection to birth control.

Supporters say RFRA is designed to protect people’s religious beliefs from unnecessary government intrusion. But opponents argue the measure serves as a license to discriminate, particularly against LGBT people, on religious grounds.

In the past week, a wide array of critics put pressure on Pence to veto the measure, including actor and director George Takei, the CEO of Salesforce, and the organizers of Gen Con – billed on its website as “the original, longest-running, best-attended, gaming convention in the world.” Adrian Swartout, CEO and owner of Gen Con LLC, said in a letter addressed to Pence that if Indiana’s RFRA became law, he would consider moving the convention to a different state in future years – a move that’s expected to cost Indiana more than $50 million annually.

But Pence pushed back against the accusation that the religious freedom measure would open the door to discrimination.

“This bill is not about discrimination, and if I thought it legalized discrimination in any way in Indiana, I would have vetoed it,” he said. “In fact, it does not even apply to disputes between private parties unless government action is involved. For more than twenty years, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act has never undermined our nation’s anti-discrimination laws, and it will not in Indiana.”

Pence isn’t the first religious freedom supporter to argue that RFRA doesn’t apply to disputes between private parties – like, for example, a religious landlord who wants to evict his gay tenant. Michigan’s former Republican House speaker told msnbc the same thing when he was trying to rush a religious freedom measure through the legislature during last year’s lame duck session. But LGBT advocates point out that anti-discrimination laws rely on government agencies to take action in disputes between private parties, and it’s that action that would be impeded by RFRA.

“One of the ways that anti-discrimination laws work is that you have government agencies going after the people accused of discrimination. In that case, it would be a ‘government action,’” Brooke Tucker, staff attorney at the ACLU of Michigan, told msnbc last December. “For the landlord who violates the Fair Housing Act, a lot of times it’s the government who goes after him. The government takes a lot of steps to protect people from discrimination by others, and that’s something that could be severely impacted by this bill.”

The Michigan RFRA ended up dying. But once the 2015 session began, Republican lawmakers began introducing a wave of religious freedom measures across the country. According to the ACLU, 22 state RFRAs were introduced in 13 states this year. But Indiana’s is the first to become law.

Gov. Pence signed the measure during a private ceremony just before 10 a.m. Thursday morning. Members of the media were not allowed to even be in the waiting area of the governor’s office, The Indianapolis Star reported.

Read Pence’s full statement below:

“Today I signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, because I support the freedom of religion for every Hoosier of every faith.

“The Constitution of the United States and the Indiana Constitution both provide strong recognition of the freedom of religion but today, many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action.

“One need look no further than the recent litigation concerning the Affordable Care Act. A private business and our own University of Notre Dame had to file lawsuits challenging provisions that required them to offer insurance coverage in violation of their religious views.

“Fortunately, in the 1990s Congress passed, and President Clinton signed, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act—limiting government action that would infringe upon religion to only those that did not substantially burden free exercise of religion absent a compelling state interest and in the least restrictive means.

“Last year the Supreme Court of the United States upheld religious liberty in the Hobby Lobby case based on the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but that act does not apply to individual states or local government action. At present, nineteen states—including our neighbors in Illinois and Kentucky—have adopted Religious Freedom Restoration statutes. And in eleven additional states, the courts have interpreted their constitutions to provide a heightened standard for reviewing government action.

“In order to ensure that religious liberty is fully protected under Indiana law, this year our General Assembly joined those 30 states and the federal government to enshrine these principles in Indiana law, and I fully support that action.

“This bill is not about discrimination, and if I thought it legalized discrimination in any way in Indiana, I would have vetoed it. In fact, it does not even apply to disputes between private parties unless government action is involved. For more than twenty years, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act has never undermined our nation’s anti-discrimination laws, and it will not in Indiana.

“Indiana is rightly celebrated for the hospitality, generosity, tolerance, and values of our people, and that will never change. Faith and religion are important values to millions of Hoosiers and with the passage of this legislation, we ensure that Indiana will continue to be a place where we respect freedom of religion and make certain that government action will always be subject to the highest level of scrutiny that respects the religious beliefs of every Hoosier of every faith.”
So, the Governor of Indiana passed a bill that has no protections against discrimination. Despite what he says, people could use this bill to discriminate and refuse service against people of any sexual orientation, religion, or skin color. In response, companies and even other states are already boycotting Indiana. Their economy is going to tank hard if nothing changes.

So far, Angie's List is cancelling the construction of a new HQ, GenCon is pulling out, the City of Seattle, WA and the whole state of Connecticut are banning official travel to Indiana, and even some Christian groups are pulling out and having their conventions elsewhere. Oh and George Takei is organizing an effort too.

Alltogether just these first few boycotts amount to over $100 million in lost revenue for Indianapolis. I wonder how long it will be until the governor caves in...
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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I am both disgusted by this moron's slimy little ways, and immensely proud that so many are standing together to show that this just isn't cricket. Let's hope this is dealt with quickly, relatively speaking of course.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Terralthra »

In my inbox this morning from the President of a university I teach at:
Les Wong, President SFSU wrote:Dear Faculty, Staff and Students:

I am dismayed, if not extremely disappointed, in the recent legislation signed into law in Indiana. It is unconscionable for this great University to spend its resources in a state that attempts to legislate discrimination of any kind.

By this note, I am informing the campus community that no San Francisco State University funds from any source--general funds or auxiliary--will be used to support employee or student travel to Indiana. This action is effective today, Monday, March 30, 2015 until further notice. Any travel authorized prior to today may proceed as planned with approval of the appropriate vice president.

We are researching similar legislation reputed to be existent in other states to determine further action.

As a member of the NCAA Division 2 President’s Council, I will not attend a required meeting of the Council to be held in April in Indianapolis. A copy of this note is being sent to NCAA President Mark Emmert and to CSU Chancellor Timothy White.

Our commitment to social justice on this campus remains a point of pride for me. The vice presidents, deans and Academic Senate's Executive Committee all endorse this action.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Patroklos »

Borgholio wrote:

So, the Governor of Indiana passed a bill that has no protections against discrimination. Despite what he says, people could use this bill to discriminate and refuse service against people of any sexual orientation, religion, or skin color. In response, companies and even other states are already boycotting Indiana. Their economy is going to tank hard if nothing changes.

So far, Angie's List is cancelling the construction of a new HQ, GenCon is pulling out, the City of Seattle, WA and the whole state of Connecticut are banning official travel to Indiana, and even some Christian groups are pulling out and having their conventions elsewhere. Oh and George Takei is organizing an effort too.

Alltogether just these first few boycotts amount to over $100 million in lost revenue for Indianapolis. I wonder how long it will be until the governor caves in...
No, and please stop being spreading misinformation. There is nothing specific about this law that singles out any particular class for discrimination and has been pointed out it operates near exactly the way the Federal Law does. The issue is that sexual orientation is not a protected class in Indiana unlike skin color and religion you mentioned by other laws in Indiana like at the Federal level. So no, there is no potential for discrimination of religion or skin color based on this bill because other law prevents this..

So the fix is to make sexual orientation a protected class in general in Indiana, which I assume you will think is a good idea, not stupidly fixate on this particular law which the legislature already said from the get go they would modify to make it clear you can't do what it's detractors claim. Which is kind of odd if those same law makers intended it for that purpose don't you think? This is nothing more than lefty click bait devoid of substance.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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The only thing the Indiana RFRA shares with the federal one is the title. Unlike the federal law, the Indiana statute permits its provisions to be used as an affirmative defense in lawsuits between private parties, gives the government an unconditional right to intervene in said suits if it is invoked, explicitly permits its use by any entity able to sue and be sued (rather than only by individuals and closely held firms) and let's not forget it's final section explicitly bars the law's provisions from being used in one (and only one) type of dispute: That of an employee or applicant against his employer or potential employer. That is, corporations may invoke this law to avoid hiring anyone they don't like, but an employee may not invoke this law to, say, avoid being fired for observing the Sabbath.
Patroklos wrote:
Borgholio wrote:

So, the Governor of Indiana passed a bill that has no protections against discrimination. Despite what he says, people could use this bill to discriminate and refuse service against people of any sexual orientation, religion, or skin color. In response, companies and even other states are already boycotting Indiana. Their economy is going to tank hard if nothing changes.

So far, Angie's List is cancelling the construction of a new HQ, GenCon is pulling out, the City of Seattle, WA and the whole state of Connecticut are banning official travel to Indiana, and even some Christian groups are pulling out and having their conventions elsewhere. Oh and George Takei is organizing an effort too.

Alltogether just these first few boycotts amount to over $100 million in lost revenue for Indianapolis. I wonder how long it will be until the governor caves in...
No, and please stop being spreading misinformation. There is nothing specific about this law that singles out any particular class for discrimination and has been pointed out it operates near exactly the way the Federal Law does. The issue is that sexual orientation is not a protected class in Indiana unlike skin color and religion you mentioned by other laws in Indiana like at the Federal level. So no, there is no potential for discrimination of religion or skin color based on this bill because other law prevents this..

So the fix is to make sexual orientation a protected class in general in Indiana, which I assume you will think is a good idea, not stupidly fixate on this particular law which the legislature already said from the get go they would modify to make it clear you can't do what it's detractors claim. Which is kind of odd if those same law makers intended it for that purpose don't you think? This is nothing more than lefty click bait devoid of substance.
Pence flatly refuses to consider making sexual orientation a protected class; he said so point-blank in an interview with the Indianapolis Star late last week.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Simon_Jester »

Just to be clear on what you're saying, Patroklos:

You seem to be arguing:
1) Sexual orientation is not a protected class in Indiana and is thus not protected from discrimination by law.
2) The Indiana RFRA exempts private agents from government action against them, if that action is taken regarding something that is a religious belief, except under very strict conditions.
3) If sexual orientation were a protected class in Indiana, then the protection of citizens from discrimination over their orientation would override the Indiana RFRA.
4) Therefore, the RFRA would have no power to harm gays or transgender people in Indiana, if orientation (and gender identity) were protected classes under Indiana law.

Did I understand you rightly?

If so, would you mind providing more support for your claims (3) and (4)? They seem uncertain to me.
Rogue 9 wrote:The only thing the Indiana RFRA shares with the federal one is the title. Unlike the federal law, the Indiana statute permits its provisions to be used as an affirmative defense in lawsuits between private parties, gives the government an unconditional right to intervene in said suits if it is invoked, explicitly permits its use by any entity able to sue and be sued (rather than only by individuals and closely held firms) and let's not forget it's final section explicitly bars the law's provisions from being used in one (and only one) type of dispute: That of an employee or applicant against his employer or potential employer. That is, corporations may invoke this law to avoid hiring anyone they don't like, but an employee may not invoke this law to, say, avoid being fired for observing the Sabbath.
Thaaaat really ought to raise First Amendment issues. A corporation's religious freedom surely should not override that of a citizen, even if we accept the idea that an organization not explicitly adjunct to some religious institution can have a religion in the first place.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by General Zod »

If it's not about discrimination how come Indiana's governor couldn't give a straight answer when he was asked if it was?

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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Gaidin »

Borgholio wrote: GenCon is pulling out,
GenCon hasn't pulled out. They are...shall we say...playing by ear. Apparently Indianapolis as a city is as hostile to the law as most. What that means with whether GenCon will let them bid for 2021 and beyond or not remains to be seen.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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Simon_Jester wrote:Just to be clear on what you're saying, Patroklos:

You seem to be arguing:
1) Sexual orientation is not a protected class in Indiana and is thus not protected from discrimination by law.
2) The Indiana RFRA exempts private agents from government action against them, if that action is taken regarding something that is a religious belief, except under very strict conditions.
3) If sexual orientation were a protected class in Indiana, then the protection of citizens from discrimination over their orientation would override the Indiana RFRA.
4) Therefore, the RFRA would have no power to harm gays or transgender people in Indiana, if orientation (and gender identity) were protected classes under Indiana law.

Did I understand you rightly?

If so, would you mind providing more support for your claims (3) and (4)? They seem uncertain to me.
employer or potential employer.
Yes. Here is a news reports that highlights that as the difference regarding Indiana not having sexual orientation as a protected class..

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... ay-lawHere is a news reports that highlights that as the difference

this is why until Borg said it above I have heard nobody mention racial or religious discrimination due to this law because it clearly states "unless it furthers a compelling government interest" or some such regarding whena person's religious freedoms can be violated. State civil rights laws regarding race as an example exist so it presents a compelling government interest. They do not in the case of sexual orientation which is where people are finding it possible to discriminate in that sphere, the state could claim preventing that discrimination does not constitute a compelling interest absent a specic law calling that class out.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Joun_Lord »

Gaidin wrote:
Borgholio wrote: GenCon is pulling out,
GenCon hasn't pulled out. They are...shall we say...playing by ear. Apparently Indianapolis as a city is as hostile to the law as most. What that means with whether GenCon will let them bid for 2021 and beyond or not remains to be seen.
That pdf pretty much confirms what I read in an earlier new article. GenCon dude is pissed but cannot do shit as he has a contract with the shitty of Indianapolis until 2020.

Could try to invoke the new law, say he religiously cannot do business with the city because of religion then the government can't do fuck to enforce the contract.......because of religion.

Personally I think there really need to be some laws on the books for freedom from religion (thats an original thought, no stealing!). While one is free to practice their religious beliefs as they see fit (within reason, no ritualistic rape and human sacrifice) others are free from having religion and its beliefs imposed upon them. Religious folks should even appreciate that, I'm sure no Christian wants to be forced to conform to Muslim sharia law or a Muslim forced to conform to Jewish customs or a Jedi forced to conform to Sith edicts.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by biostem »

I love how "I should be able to discriminate because my religion says so" is seen as a "freedom" or not as bigotry by some people...
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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Chimaera wrote:I am both disgusted by this moron's slimy little ways, and immensely proud that so many are standing together to show that this just isn't cricket. Let's hope this is dealt with quickly, relatively speaking of course.
I just hope it doesn't lead to me being unemployed again.

The religious nutjobs thought they could get away with this without anyone noticing. Bunch of assholes. Wish we could run them out of town state.

ETA: and yes, this is explicitly in reaction to the anti-gay marriage laws being overturned in Indiana. This bill was promoted as a way to protect florists and bakers from having to make arrangements and cakes for gay marriages. :roll:
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by biostem »

One thing that bugs me is that, as private entities, churches and businesses are allowed to refuse service to whomever they want. Pushing through legislation is them trying to legitimize their bigotry, at the taxpayers' expense, (I wonder just how much money this piece of garbage has cost the people of that state).
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Gaidin »

biostem wrote:One thing that bugs me is that, as private entities, churches and businesses are allowed to refuse service to whomever they want. Pushing through legislation is them trying to legitimize their bigotry, at the taxpayers' expense, (I wonder just how much money this piece of garbage has cost the people of that state).
Like, well, everything, I get the feeling they're allowed to refuse service when there's either a blatantly obvious good reason or they say nothing. When they're dense enough to start dropping hints as to the bad reason why...
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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What a bunch of fucking assholes - on both sides. If the boycotters were boycotting Indiana businesses that actually started using this law, that would be something, but how the fuck is discriminating against somebody for living in Indiana and not discriminating against homosexuals any more justifiable than discriminating against somebody for being a homosexual?
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by AniThyng »

Grumman wrote:What a bunch of fucking assholes - on both sides. If the boycotters were boycotting Indiana businesses that actually started using this law, that would be something, but how the fuck is discriminating against somebody for living in Indiana and not discriminating against homosexuals any more justifiable than discriminating against somebody for being a homosexual?
When you've figured that out you can tackle the question of why it's justifiable to punish entire nations for the actions of their leadership by economic sanctions I guess.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Alferd Packer »

Grumman wrote:What a bunch of fucking assholes - on both sides. If the boycotters were boycotting Indiana businesses that actually started using this law, that would be something, but how the fuck is discriminating against somebody for living in Indiana and not discriminating against homosexuals any more justifiable than discriminating against somebody for being a homosexual?
The population of Indiana elected the officials who designed and put into effect this law. They share the blame, so they have to absorb some of the blowback. Further, those who do not support this law should be incentivized to elect officials who will repeal it. They don't get to wash their hands of this just because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their government's buffoonery. This is a statewide law, put into effect by the state's lawfully elected legislature and executive. Everyone in the state is on the hook for this one.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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Grumman wrote:What a bunch of fucking assholes - on both sides. If the boycotters were boycotting Indiana businesses that actually started using this law, that would be something, but how the fuck is discriminating against somebody for living in Indiana and not discriminating against homosexuals any more justifiable than discriminating against somebody for being a homosexual?
Most probably with the same rationale people use when they call to boycott China or <insert country here> when they don't like the actions of the government.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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Alferd Packer wrote:The population of Indiana elected the officials who designed and put into effect this law. They share the blame, so they have to absorb some of the blowback. Further, those who do not support this law should be incentivized to elect officials who will repeal it. They don't get to wash their hands of this just because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their government's buffoonery. This is a statewide law, put into effect by the state's lawfully elected legislature and executive. Everyone in the state is on the hook for this one.
Not all "elected officials" voted for this, and some of us wrote our elected officials (whether they were the guys we voted for or not) and told them what a stupid, dumb-ass idea this was. Unfortunately, the relatively liberal parts of the state (my county, for example) were outvoted by bigots... as can happen in a democracy.

And what about the other states with similar laws? Why aren't those states being boycotted? There's a certain inconsistency here.

On the other hand, the politicians are definitely noticing the uproar. The fact that businesses (capitalism is worshiped almost as fervently as Jesus in this state) are talking with their dollars actually makes it far more likely it will change than the shouting of "little people" such as myself.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

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AniThyng wrote:
Grumman wrote:What a bunch of fucking assholes - on both sides. If the boycotters were boycotting Indiana businesses that actually started using this law, that would be something, but how the fuck is discriminating against somebody for living in Indiana and not discriminating against homosexuals any more justifiable than discriminating against somebody for being a homosexual?
When you've figured that out you can tackle the question of why it's justifiable to punish entire nations for the actions of their leadership by economic sanctions I guess.
What Indiana has done is nothing compared to the provocation that justifies full economic sanctions. This is not Imperial Japan invading the rest of Eastern Asia and murdering hundreds of thousands of civilians, this is a failure to ban an illegitimate form of boycott.

As a law-abiding individual, this is your nuclear option. If you waste it on your allies for living in the wrong place, you are a fucking idiot.
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Despite what many conservatives are current yelling about...
This debate is NOT akin to "Going to a Jewish Deli and asking for a Ham sandwich" Nor is it akin to "Going to a cake shop and asking them to put Pornography on a cake" NOR is it akin to someone "Going to a Christian book store and asking for books on Atheism"

All three of which are "arguments" I have heard in defense of these so could Religious protection laws.
The Far right needs to get it through it's skull that this has nothing to do with someone ASKING for something that can't get. Gay people aren't going into cake shops and asking for Porn, they are asking for CAKE.

The Irony is that if many on the Right were not so hung up on Religion, there wouldn't be as much fuss. If you want to kick someone out of your shop because, you think they are "unhygienic" and need a bath, thats ok... Or if they are causing a disruption to other customers. Thats ok. But if your a cake shop, you cannot refuse to sell cake to someone just because "you don't like them"

I mean, Where in the bible does it say you should not serve sinners? (not that any of these people care what the Bible says)

It is a perfect example of wanting it both ways...

If these "christian" business had a sign out front that said "Non Sinners ONLY" Or if they named their shop "Holy Jesus Cake Shop" or "The Lord Gods Cakes" or something... Well THEN you have more of a case if Gay people still went in asking for service. But these people DONT.. They want to remain "neutral"
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Lost Soal »

Broomstick wrote:
Alferd Packer wrote:The population of Indiana elected the officials who designed and put into effect this law. They share the blame, so they have to absorb some of the blowback. Further, those who do not support this law should be incentivized to elect officials who will repeal it. They don't get to wash their hands of this just because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their government's buffoonery. This is a statewide law, put into effect by the state's lawfully elected legislature and executive. Everyone in the state is on the hook for this one.
Not all "elected officials" voted for this, and some of us wrote our elected officials (whether they were the guys we voted for or not) and told them what a stupid, dumb-ass idea this was. Unfortunately, the relatively liberal parts of the state (my county, for example) were outvoted by bigots... as can happen in a democracy.

And what about the other states with similar laws? Why aren't those states being boycotted? There's a certain inconsistency here.
There aren't any. These laws have been proposed and put forward in multiple States but Indiana is the first to actually pass and sign it.
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Patroklos
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by Patroklos »

Yeah, about that...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the ... oycotting/

EDIT: removed the map image as it was breaking the forum. Its in the above link.
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LaCroix
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Re: Indiana passes anti-gay legislation - nation begins boyc

Post by LaCroix »

One question to clarify - why can't the shops refuse to serve someone, anyway, without such legislation?

In Austria( and I guess in pretty much all of Europe, and probably most of the world), doing business with someone falls under the freedom of association clause - you are not forced to do business with any person, period. Well, except the rare case you are selling some really necessary-for-survival stuff (like pharmacies, I think) - there you can't refuse business, but there are exemptions, for even grovcery shops can ban you from entering their premises if you misbehave.

I was under the assumption that this would also be the case in the US.
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