Reparations paid to Guantanamo detainees...

[Mr. Coffee]

Not saying thing for or against until someone from the Administration says something. You made this official, I'm abiding by that decision.

[AniThyng]

I don't think you should be so arrogant. There are a good number of people who are also trying to change things according to their definition of better, which you disagree with, and many more who are complacent because they don't see anything significantly wrong. Rather than castigating them as "cowardly", maybe understand them so you can disagree intelligently and maybe change minds. You don't change minds by telling people they're cowards or stupid.

"Less than 10% of the population agrees with my definitions of better and is actively trying to bring them about", does not logically lead to "therefore 90%+ are cowards".

If only 10% of Americans think that stopping abuses of US power* is worth while I think perhaps the word for Americans should be a little stronger than cowards. The fact of the matter is that each and every person who takes no action to speak out against torture is complicit in allowing it to continue. This isn't some secret that a very few people support, this is a known issue that nobody does shit about.

*Torturing people, drone strikes against anybody Obama pleases, and pressuring other nations to break their own laws to apprehend internet pirates as a few top of the head examples.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere, might have been on this board, that if you go down this road far enough you'll end up persecuting citizens of authoritarian governments for the crime of failing to try to overthrow said government hard enough.

it doesn't help either that there usually are very polarizing issues that result in both sides having champions that cancel each other out ( 49% vs 51%? )

[Jub]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere, might have been on this board, that if you go down this road far enough you'll end up persecuting citizens of authoritarian governments for the crime of failing to try to overthrow said government hard enough.

it doesn't help either that there usually are very polarizing issues that result in both sides having champions that cancel each other out ( 49% vs 51%? )

The US isn't some authoritarian dictatorship at this stage and citizens are free and have an obligation to voice their concerns via whatever means that have access to. If the average person can not or will not oppose the abuses that the US has put forth in for all to see then the US is a sad sad nation.

[Terralthra]

Tell that to Jakob Appelbaum, Chelsea Manning, Kiriakou, and Snowden.

[Soontir C'boath]

What exactly are you trying to point out with those people? Obama did not follow through on his whistleblower reform and frankly, seemed to have gone the opposite way and we re-elected him anyway. Also, it is not like there is not a significant part of the populace that believe they are all traitors.

[Terralthra]

What exactly are you trying to point out with those people? Obama did not follow through on his whistleblower reform and frankly, seemed to have gone the opposite way and we re-elected him anyway. Also, it is not like there is not a significant part of the populace that believe they are all traitors.

Pointing out that to people who stand up and take action, there are in fact severe consequences.

[AniThyng]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere, might have been on this board, that if you go down this road far enough you'll end up persecuting citizens of authoritarian governments for the crime of failing to try to overthrow said government hard enough.

it doesn't help either that there usually are very polarizing issues that result in both sides having champions that cancel each other out ( 49% vs 51%? )

The US isn't some authoritarian dictatorship at this stage and citizens are free and have an obligation to voice their concerns via whatever means that have access to. If the average person can not or will not oppose the abuses that the US has put forth in for all to see then the US is a sad sad nation.

Is Canada a sad coward nation for failing to sanction and embargo a nation it knows is complicit in said abuses?

[Soontir C'boath]

What exactly are you trying to point out with those people? Obama did not follow through on his whistleblower reform and frankly, seemed to have gone the opposite way and we re-elected him anyway. Also, it is not like there is not a significant part of the populace that believe they are all traitors.

Pointing out that to people who stand up and take action, there are in fact severe consequences.

Yes, with the will of the people and the officials they elected and keep in office.

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere, might have been on this board, that if you go down this road far enough you'll end up persecuting citizens of authoritarian governments for the crime of failing to try to overthrow said government hard enough.

it doesn't help either that there usually are very polarizing issues that result in both sides having champions that cancel each other out ( 49% vs 51%? )

The US isn't some authoritarian dictatorship at this stage and citizens are free and have an obligation to voice their concerns via whatever means that have access to. If the average person can not or will not oppose the abuses that the US has put forth in for all to see then the US is a sad sad nation.

Is Canada a sad coward nation for failing to sanction and embargo a nation it knows is complicit in said abuses?

yes

[Soontir C'boath]

Any and all allies that went along with the charade for sure. Only thing left for any of them to do is to admit no wrongdoing (except for Poland apparently) for what happen in the past decade and not to necessarily jar the country that likes to keep aircraft carriers in their backyard.

Just like how Obama certainly has no plan to ever prosecute Bush Jr. and co. on war crimes.

[Mr. Coffee]

I cannot say yes or no on that until an Admin speaks on a previously voiced problem.

[Soontir C'boath]

I cannot say yes or no on that until an Admin speaks on a previously voiced problem.

I would argue that your persistent need to post such statements should count anyway. Especially since you had already said yes to something.

[Iroscato]

Coffee, you are one angry man. I wish you peace.

[Mr. Coffee]

As far as I see it, it is a mockery of a phrase in our national anthem. Though frankly, even then, I wouldn't call ourselves cowards as much as a good portion of the populace is complicit given the last goddamn poll about torture.

So you, Thanas, say that you don't actually care a thing of what it is you say, just that you said it.

Thanks, asshole.

[Flagg]

As far as I see it, it is a mockery of a phrase in our national anthem.

That much was obvious to anyone not reading the OP with an agenda.

Though frankly, even then, I wouldn't call ourselves cowards as much as a good portion of the populace is complicit given the last goddamn poll about torture.

How is America not made up of cowards, though? We kill people with fucking robots from hundreds, possibly thousands (are we capable of that? I think it would be hard to control with the lag) miles away! What's more cowardly than pushing a button in a trailer in Kuwait and blowing up a wedding party with a couple might-be terrorists in Yemen? Why not pull a 'Zero Dark Thirty' and send a SEAL team in to crash the party and confirm they are terrorists and even try to capture them? Oh right, that might get American soldiers killed and we can't have that!
And I'm not saying that we should applaud dead soldiers, I'm saying we shouldn't be poking around in the Middle East and Northern Africa PERIOD, thereby lessening the chances of there being dead soldiers. But since the American public is by and large apathetic on political issues, tied to an ideology, or outright pussies, it's not hard to get them to overwhelmingly support a war no matter how fucking stupid it is. At least until it becomes inconvenient for them emotionally.

[Edi]

What the fuck just happened here?

Mr. Coffee, please take a chill pill and a deep breath.

What I'm seeing in this thread is a severe overreaction by some of the American posters to a generalization about their country, and more to the point, a generalization that is to a large degree accurate.

The US has repeatedly done everything in its power to sweep everything related to its torture programs behind an official veil of secrecy, it has repeatedly and systematically refused to prosecute those guilty of engaging in torture and has in fact actively protected them, has actively denied any redress to victims that it tortured despite knowing they were innocent and has hounded, persecuted and brought criminal charges against those who have tried to actively bring any of this to light (such as Kiriakou et al mentioned before). Hell, the US has even done the same for people who only revealed issues of funding corruption in order to try to avoid waste of resources (Thomas Drake).

And depending on what particulars you ask about and how, the majority of the US population is a-okay with all of that, as evidenced by numerous polls down the years. Often the greatest outrage related to revealed scandals such as the torture at Abu Ghraib, the torture at Guantanamo and other such shenanigans has been that those things were revealed rather than covered up, because "it endangers the lives of American soldiers". You hear that shit all over the US mainstream media, not just on Fox News or the rightwing blogosphere.

There's plenty of ammunition there to make one or more relatively accurate generalizations about America as a nation being too cowardly to face up to its wrongdoings and apologize to those it wronged. Doesn't mean that such a generalization covers every American. The majority of the American board members here have made no secret of their opposition to all of the shit I enumerated above, but do you guys have any fucking idea how unrepresentative of your nation you are? Both in terms of being informed enough to even know about those things, never mind voicing protest, even if just on an internet forum?

At least, when one examines American and foreign media coverage, periodic coverage of poll results and similar, the great majority of Americans don't know and they don't fucking care, and there is also a very sizable contingent that both knows and doesn't care, and yet another contingent that both knows and approves of all that heinous crap because they think America is so special that it gets a pass.


In light of that, grow a thicker skin, because you'll probably be hearing acid commentary on America in these respects well into your old age unless something momentous enough happens that it alters the trajectory your country has taken since 9/11. You should take comfort in the fact that because you voice protest, the generalizations you see and hear don't apply to you, even if they apply to your government and a large number of your fellow citizens.

I don't see any evidence of moderatorial misconduct on Thanas's part in this thread, despite the reports and accusations. In the interests of getting this matter closed, I'm also not going to take action against other posters, but just going to chalk this up to a cycle of outrage and misunderstanding feeding off of each other to create a self-fueling trainwreck. However, I do not want to see related vendettas in other threads. If I do, I'm going to be extremely displeased.

[B5B7]

America - Home of the Kardashians.
If a nation and its people are going to make an undefined claim to be the "land of the brave", then they can't complain if a counter-claim is made. It is a song lyric; are you going to unquestionably accept every song lyric as applying to your nation and to you personally, say "God Bless America"?!
Anyway, it always seemed to me that this was saying that there was only one Amerindian left (the others must have been genocided).
Also, song lyrics are subject to parody eg Sex Pistols version of "God save the Queen".

[Simon_Jester]

Thank you for answering my question on Pages 1 and 2 about what constitutes accepted forum practices, Edi.

[salm]

It´s funny because Americans generalize themselves all the time as The Brave and then throw a hissy fit about generalizing.
If you are honest you are not generally against generalisations. It is obvious that Americans love generalisations. At least as long as they are favorable towards themselves.

[Flagg]

It´s funny because Americans generalize themselves all the time as The Brave and then throw a hissy fit about generalizing.
If you are honest you are not generally against generalisations. It is obvious that Americans love generalisations. At least as long as they are favorable towards themselves.

Or if they are generalizations about "the Muslims", or really against any group. Americans generalize shit all the time. Again, proving that America is a nation of cowards: They can dish it out, but can't even come close to taking it.

[Dark Hellion]

It´s funny because Americans generalize themselves all the time as The Brave and then throw a hissy fit about generalizing.
If you are honest you are not generally against generalisations. It is obvious that Americans love generalisations. At least as long as they are favorable towards themselves.

Every country likes generalizations that are favorable to themselves. Don't pretend that this is some special American trait.

The majority of the American board members here have made no secret of their opposition to all of the shit I enumerated above, but do you guys have any fucking idea how unrepresentative of your nation you are? Both in terms of being informed enough to even know about those things, never mind voicing protest, even if just on an internet forum?

Edi, I think that this quote is somewhat important in understanding how the overreaction happened. As you point out the posters on this forum are not typical Americans, especially when it comes to thickness of skin given the general nature of the forum. The fact that numerous posters where offended enough to get up in arms points out that there is something deeper underlying this than simply a stereotype about Americans being thin skinned.

What this is, I am not sure. But I will say as an American on this board it is easy to fall into a perspective that there are special rules for what is acceptable to hold against America compared to what one can hold against other countries. For an example of how this perspective could be easily reached just compare the Greek Election thread and the end of the Charle Hebdo thread. In the Greek election thread Nazi comments where jumped all over by several posters. In the Charle Hebdo thread slavery and Jim Crow where held against America in respect to race relations, despite slavery ending 80 years before the Nazis ended and segregation being dismantled over 40 years ago. Things that happened in the U.S. before the vast majority of the posters were born are held against them at times on this board and it can seem that it is acceptable practice.

Now, I do not think that there is any effort by the staff of the board to promote an anti-American narrative. But a lot of low quality posts make it through in N&P because they fit the America=bad narrative, even though if you ask nearly any American poster on this board we will agree with the general sentiment that America is failing to live up to the obligations we have set for ourselves. Frankly, a lot of low quality posts are making it through in N&P these days and many of these poor posts are just vitriol and spittle.

I think an honest look should be given into switching some of the moderation staff of N&P. There is a certain level of stagnation in the moderation staff. Some have simply been moderators for a really long time and fallen into certain rhythms. Others are simply not that active. I don't think that this is a board critical thing, but a new take on how moderation of N&P occurs may help shake some of the funk off and help the board get back to the liveliness it had a couple of years ago.

[Simon_Jester]

It´s funny because Americans generalize themselves all the time as The Brave and then throw a hissy fit about generalizing.
If you are honest you are not generally against generalisations. It is obvious that Americans love generalisations. At least as long as they are favorable towards themselves.

I do?

Prove it.

[Channel72]

Anecdotally, I don't really find that most Americans are really particularly outraged about anything going on in Guantanamo, or any of our numerous concentration camps.

It's all good down on Wall Street, you know, now that the S&P 500 is kicking ass again. Nobody gives a fuck about rights-deprived terrorists Muslims. And if you start to feel guilty, don't worry - ISIS's latest antics are always there to assuage your guilt somehow, regardless of how relevant any of that may be to the situation in Cuba.

So yeah...

Thanas is pretty much correct, the way I see it. But then, I'm not really feeling too much outrage either, nor can I presently muster the effort to pretend to be outraged, so I guess I'm sort of complicit in all this cowardice. Cowardice is a nice privilege sometimes, but apathy really starts to hurt after a while.

[Channel72]

I'd also add: you can always gauge the safe, "mainstream American opinion" by what large corporations deem to be safe enough to incorporate into their advertising narratives.

Geico, at least, is happy to support the US military, and likes to run ad campaigns highlighting that fact.

Suffice it to say, no major corporations ever speak out against Guantanamo or any of the various US internment programs. It's not profitable to do so because it's not really a "safe", mainstream opinion.

[Simon_Jester]

Just out of curiosity, how do we compare the amount of cowardice required to tolerate one thousand people being held by my nation in an internment camp... to the amount of cowardice required to tolerate one hundred thousand people being held in similar camps?

Does it take the same amount of cowardice? One one-hundredth as much cowardice? Is there some sort of square-law relationship so that it requires one-tenth the cowardice?

Because I'm curious to see what our threshold is for saying "you are a coward for tolerating this." Has anyone got a rigorous argument for what the threshold is, based on actual political philosophy rather than ill-defined sentiments?