If You Are Mentally Ill, American Police Will Kill You

[Dominus Atheos]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/2 ... hing-knife

American police will kill you. Run from them, they'll kill you. Act nervous when they scream at you and they'll kill you. Do nothing at all and they'll kill you. Walk down the stairs and they'll kill you. Put your hands up and they'll kill you.
Mental illness matters not to American police if they imagine, sense, or perceive a threat of any kind; They will shoot you over and over again until you die.

It's not this way around the world, but in the good 'ol US of A, our officers are shooting and killing people at a record pace. So, when Kristiana Coignard walked into a Longview, Texas police department, and picked up the phone there to speak to someone, the fact that she would soon be shot to death by three police officers may have already occurred to her, but as details emerge about her shooting death, it's hard to imagine if she walked into a police department in nearly any other country in the world that she would've died in a barrage of bullets.

Please read below the fold for details on this story. On Friday, January 23, 17-year-old student Kristiana Coignard walked into her local police department, picked up a telephone, and asked to speak to an officer. Sometime after that she pulled "a weapon" and was shot and killed by three police officers.

For three days, that's pretty much all the police have said. Refusing to say what type of weapon she brandished, the inference was that it was so lethal a weapon that it must've been a gun or a stick of dynamite or hand grenade, but Longview Mayor Jay Dean just revealed that it wasn't a gun at all, but a knife.

In an article on Think Progress, it was revealed that Kristiana was struggling mightily with mental illness.

Coignard was living in Longview with her Aunt, Heather Robertson. In an interview with ThinkProgress, Robertson raised questions about the circumstances of Coignard’s death. “I think it was a cry for help. I think they could have done something. They are grown men. I think there is something they are not telling us.”

Robertson said that her niece had been struggling with mental illness, including depression and bipolar disorder, since her mother died when she was four. She had been hospitalized twice in recent years after suicide attempts. One time, she tried to hang herself. Another time, she drank toilet bowl cleaner. Since arriving in Longview in December, Coignard had been taking medication and regularly seeing a therapist. She had no criminal record and “was only violent with herself, ” Robertson said.

It's hard to believe, no matter what the circumstance, that the only option available to the Longview police department was to shoot Kristiana over and over again.

In London, a depressed man struggling with mental illness got two large knives and pulled them out in front of Buckingham Palace, but the police, trained on how to surround and subdue a man like him with nonlethal force, did so in less than a minute.



In the United States, though, eight officers and a police dog, surrounded a mentally ill man with a knife, and, instead of subduing him, shot at him 46 times until he bled out and died there in the parking lot.

It's ridiculous.



A homeless man, James Boyd, was shot over and over again by New Mexico police in spite of not being a grave threat to them.



Kajieme Powell, in the midst of psychotic episode, was shot and killed by St. Louis police within seconds of pulling up next to him.



In an Economist article entitled "Trigger Happy," the true story of just how quickly American police are willing to shoot and kill people is made frighteningly clear:

Last year, in total, British police officers actually fired their weapons three times. The number of people fatally shot was zero. In 2012 the figure was just one. Even after adjusting for the smaller size of Britain’s population, British citizens are around 100 times less likely to be shot by a police officer than Americans. Between 2010 and 2014 the police force of one small American city, Albuquerque in New Mexico, shot and killed 23 civilians; seven times more than the number of Brits killed by all of England and Wales’s 43 forces during the same period.

This is a public safety crisis. While our nation may have more guns than many others, it's disgustingly obvious that our police are shooting and killing people who are unarmed and often mentally ill and it must stop.

[Broomstick]

The article implies that "shoot to kill" is the standard, default response of all US police to all situations, yet that is not true. I've even posted a few incidents here where someone obviously deranged (man brandishing a sword walking down a freeway) or drunk/drugged (bar next door) has been dealt with without gunfire or injuries to anyone. While unnecessary police violence and shooting is a problem that needs to be addressed the implication that the police are a constant and universal danger is a distortion. An inflammatory article such as this does nothing to solve the problem.

[Simon_Jester]

Another issue that can distort things is that the US has an absolutely terrible infrastructure for dealing with mental health issues. We have a very minimal system for ensuring that poor people get mental health care, or any kind of medical care whatsoever, or for that matter basic physical needs like food and housing.

And mental illness tends to make people poor, so there's a vicious cycle at work.

This then results in the mentally ill gravitating toward areas where the police are most likely to be overzealous or hypervigilant: low-income, high-crime neighborhoods. It also creates an increased number of homeless people who occupy public spaces constantly, having nowhere else to go, and thus end up confronting police more often than normal

[Alyeska]

California Highway Patrol officer saves 200 people from suicide on the Golden Gate Bridge.

There are serious problems that must be addressed. But your thread and title are down right insulting. Knock off the hyperbole DA.

[General Zod]

The article implies that "shoot to kill" is the standard, default response of all US police to all situations, yet that is not true. I've even posted a few incidents here where someone obviously deranged (man brandishing a sword walking down a freeway) or drunk/drugged (bar next door) has been dealt with without gunfire or injuries to anyone. While unnecessary police violence and shooting is a problem that needs to be addressed the implication that the police are a constant and universal danger is a distortion. An inflammatory article such as this does nothing to solve the problem.

I hate to ask the obvious question, but . . . how many of those instances involved black men?

[Flagg]

California Highway Patrol officer saves 200 people from suicide on the Golden Gate Bridge.

There are serious problems that must be addressed. But your thread and title are down right insulting. Knock off the hyperbole DA.

Find as many incidents like that for every murder by cop and we'll take your red herring with some semblance of seriousness.

[Alyeska]

California Highway Patrol officer saves 200 people from suicide on the Golden Gate Bridge.

There are serious problems that must be addressed. But your thread and title are down right insulting. Knock off the hyperbole DA.

Find as many incidents like that for every murder by cop and we'll take your red herring with some semblance of seriousness.

Oh fuck off. The thread title is seriously offensive.

[Flagg]

California Highway Patrol officer saves 200 people from suicide on the Golden Gate Bridge.

There are serious problems that must be addressed. But your thread and title are down right insulting. Knock off the hyperbole DA.

Find as many incidents like that for every murder by cop and we'll take your red herring with some semblance of seriousness.

Oh fuck off. The thread title is seriously offensive.

To you it may be. I don't find it offensive, I find it accurate. Is it hyperbolic? Sure. But there's no rule against hyperbole to my knowledge. Frankly I wonder why you clicked on the thread if you found the title so offensive except to pick a fight.

[Alyeska]

To you it may be. I don't find it offensive, I find it accurate. Is it hyperbolic? Sure. But there's no rule against hyperbole to my knowledge.

Yes, cops will kill the mentally ill. They will also buy homeless shoes. And they will also buy lemonade from kids. You can cherry pick any example. And making broad accusatory claims against the entire profession perpetuates the fucking Us vs Them perception in the first place.

[Flagg]

To you it may be. I don't find it offensive, I find it accurate. Is it hyperbolic? Sure. But there's no rule against hyperbole to my knowledge.

Yes, cops will kill the mentally ill. They will also buy homeless shoes. And they will also buy lemonade from kids. You can cherry pick any example. And making broad accusatory claims against the entire profession perpetuates the fucking Us vs Them perception in the first place.

So in your view, as long as "most cops are good" then it's offensive to group them with the murdering pigs who shoot mentally ill people, despite the fact that those "good cops" practice a code similar to the mob in that they don't tolerate "rats" and stand shoulder to shoulder in the famous blue wall of silence?

[Alyrium Denryle]

To you it may be. I don't find it offensive, I find it accurate. Is it hyperbolic? Sure. But there's no rule against hyperbole to my knowledge.

Yes, cops will kill the mentally ill. They will also buy homeless shoes. And they will also buy lemonade from kids. You can cherry pick any example. And making broad accusatory claims against the entire profession perpetuates the fucking Us vs Them perception in the first place.

So in your view, as long as "most cops are good" then it's offensive to group them with the murdering pigs who shoot mentally ill people, despite the fact that those "good cops" practice a code similar to the mob in that they don't tolerate "rats" and stand shoulder to shoulder in the famous blue wall of silence?

There is a LOT of institutional variation department by department with respect to whether that happens. The LAPD, NOPD, NYPD etc are all particularly bad (as is the Saint Louis PD). Others like Salt Lake (which has adopted universal body cams and WILL prosecute its own), are much better.

[Broomstick]

I hate to ask the obvious question, but . . . how many of those instances involved black men?

I live in Gary, Indiana, which is 85% people of African descent. Draw your own conclusions.

[Simon_Jester]

So in your view, as long as "most cops are good" then it's offensive to group them with the murdering pigs who shoot mentally ill people, despite the fact that those "good cops" practice a code similar to the mob in that they don't tolerate "rats" and stand shoulder to shoulder in the famous blue wall of silence?

Stop and think.

Try replacing "police" with, say, "redhead." Imagine that hundreds of mentally ill people are killed by redheads every year. Meanwhile, of the tens of millions of mentally ill people in America, in a given year tens if not hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people are helped, protected, or even saved from death by redheads.

It would be grossly inaccurate to say "If you are mentally ill, American redheads will kill you." It would be inflammatory and insulting and factually wrong.

[Flagg]

There is a LOT of institutional variation department by department with respect to whether that happens. The LAPD, NOPD, NYPD etc are all particularly bad (as is the Saint Louis PD). Others like Salt Lake (which has adopted universal body cams and WILL prosecute its own), are much better.

Oh I agree, there are always exceptions that prove the rule and one towns cops can be 180 degrees different in temperament than anothers.

[Flagg]

So in your view, as long as "most cops are good" then it's offensive to group them with the murdering pigs who shoot mentally ill people, despite the fact that those "good cops" practice a code similar to the mob in that they don't tolerate "rats" and stand shoulder to shoulder in the famous blue wall of silence?

Stop and think.

Try replacing "police" with, say, "redhead." Imagine that hundreds of mentally ill people are killed by redheads every year. Meanwhile, of the tens of millions of mentally ill people in America, in a given year tens if not hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people are helped, protected, or even saved from death by redheads.

It would be grossly inaccurate to say "If you are mentally ill, American redheads will kill you." It would be inflammatory and insulting and factually wrong.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There are no cases of Redheads being called for help and then gunning down the person needing help. And a redhead is born a redhead unless you include dyejobs, because why not? We're already in the stupidest analogy ever! I'm sorry, Simon you're a smart guy and I like ya, but Redheads?

Have I ever said we don't need a police force? No. We need a vast cultural and structural change from the bottom to the top nationwide. There are several ways this could happen. The top 2 IMO in no order are: They end up getting the public so riled up that there are nationwide riots when people are finally fed up. And in the aftermath the needed changes take place for pure political expediency. The other, and the one I really, really hope comes to fruition is the politicians get sick of Police Unions and kneecap them, making it easier to eject the psychos and gradually the changes will take place as long as promotions are based on merit.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So in your view, as long as "most cops are good" then it's offensive to group them with the murdering pigs who shoot mentally ill people, despite the fact that those "good cops" practice a code similar to the mob in that they don't tolerate "rats" and stand shoulder to shoulder in the famous blue wall of silence?

Stop and think.

Try replacing "police" with, say, "redhead." Imagine that hundreds of mentally ill people are killed by redheads every year. Meanwhile, of the tens of millions of mentally ill people in America, in a given year tens if not hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people are helped, protected, or even saved from death by redheads.

It would be grossly inaccurate to say "If you are mentally ill, American redheads will kill you." It would be inflammatory and insulting and factually wrong.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There are no cases of Redheads being called for help and then gunning down the person needing help. And a redhead is born a redhead unless you include dyejobs, because why not? We're already in the stupidest analogy ever! I'm sorry, Simon you're a smart guy and I like ya, but Redheads?

Have I ever said we don't need a police force? No. We need a vast cultural and structural change from the bottom to the top nationwide. There are several ways this could happen. The top 2 IMO in no order are: They end up getting the public so riled up that there are nationwide riots when people are finally fed up. And in the aftermath the needed changes take place for pure political expediency. The other, and the one I really, really hope comes to fruition is the politicians get sick of Police Unions and kneecap them, making it easier to eject the psychos and gradually the changes will take place as long as promotions are based on merit.

Okay, so what part about it being police officers makes this gross inaccuracy acceptable?

[Flagg]

Okay, so what part about it being police officers makes this gross inaccuracy acceptable?

I guess you missed the whole mafiaesque blue wall of silence and how everyone who participates in such an ongoing conspiracy (which enables all from crooked cops to murderous cops) is equally culpable to me. And it being a "gross inaccuracy" is your opinion. I've seen too many videos where the Sherrif or Chief of Police will come out after and blatantly lie about the content of the video, slander the victim, and play "obstruct justice".

[Broomstick]

I find that rather insulting to the member of my Uncle Bill who spent nearly 20 years in Internal Affairs going after bad cops and bringing them to justice (as well as clearing the names of good cops accused of wrong-doing).

Cops are not clones. Like any other large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Why is it impossible to discuss dealing with the bad without shitting on the good?

[Flagg]

I find that rather insulting to the member of my Uncle Bill who spent nearly 20 years in Internal Affairs going after bad cops and bringing them to justice (as well as clearing the names of good cops accused of wrong-doing).

Cops are not clones. Like any other large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Why is it impossible to discuss dealing with the bad without shitting on the good?

Yeah, we're talking about the modern police. And you might want to ask Uncle Bill about how great a time he had at work in those 20 years.

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

[Themightytom]

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

You titled your post "If you are mentally ill, cops will kill you."
That doesn't sound like you acknowledge good cops. It doesn't seem like you posted any examples of good cops doing the right thing. Are there just a small number of bad cops who will unerringly find you if you are mentally ill and kill you?

[Themightytom]

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

You titled your post "If you are mentally ill, cops will kill you."
That doesn't sound like you acknowledge good cops. It doesn't seem like you posted any examples of good cops doing the right thing. Are there just a small number of bad cops who will unerringly find you if you are mentally ill and kill you?

You're not even the guy who posted... I don't know why even waded into this.

[Flagg]

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

You titled your post "If you are mentally ill, cops will kill you."
That doesn't sound like you acknowledge good cops. It doesn't seem like you posted any examples of good cops doing the right thing. Are there just a small number of bad cops who will unerringly find you if you are mentally ill and kill you?

You're not even the guy who posted... I don't know why even waded into this.

We've all had days like that.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I find that rather insulting to the member of my Uncle Bill who spent nearly 20 years in Internal Affairs going after bad cops and bringing them to justice (as well as clearing the names of good cops accused of wrong-doing).

Cops are not clones. Like any other large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Why is it impossible to discuss dealing with the bad without shitting on the good?

Yeah, we're talking about the modern police. And you might want to ask Uncle Bill about how great a time he had at work in those 20 years.

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

You called the title hyperbole but accurate.

Then you use the blue wall of silence - red herring, which is true but not universally, to justify the title and your support of it.

The actual evidence given the number of police interactions with the public and the mentally ill does not support the title that "If You Are Mentally Ill, American Police Will Kill You". Nearly 1 in 5 Americans suffer from mental illness. NYPD alone responds to 150,000 mentally ill calls per year. So, yeah the thread title isn't hyperbole. It's a completely demonstratively false statement and I only needed the statistics from one law enforcement agency, the largest but you get my point.

[Flagg]

I find that rather insulting to the member of my Uncle Bill who spent nearly 20 years in Internal Affairs going after bad cops and bringing them to justice (as well as clearing the names of good cops accused of wrong-doing).

Cops are not clones. Like any other large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Why is it impossible to discuss dealing with the bad without shitting on the good?

Yeah, we're talking about the modern police. And you might want to ask Uncle Bill about how great a time he had at work in those 20 years.

And I know there are good cops, I've never denied it. What I've said repeatedly is that those cops who participate in the Blue Wall of Silence are at best obstructing justice and at worst are part of a conspiracy to protect bad cops. I also mentioned how a great way to combat this would be to kneecap the police unions.

So basically everyone who chose to be offended by one or 2 sentences over several posts while ignoring the actual substance can eat me. Twice on Fridays.

You called the title hyperbole but accurate.

Then you use the blue wall of silence - red herring, which is true but not universally, to justify the title and your support of it.

The actual evidence given the number of police interactions with the public and the mentally ill does not support the title that "If You Are Mentally Ill, American Police Will Kill You". Nearly 1 in 5 Americans suffer from mental illness. NYPD alone responds to 150,000 mentally ill calls per year. So, yeah the thread title isn't hyperbole. It's a completely demonstratively false statement and I only needed the statistics from one law enforcement agency, the largest but you get my point.

Actually, if you want to be technical, the title is 100% accurate as American Police have and will kill you if you are mentally ill. So no, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the title itself.

And no, the blue wall of silence is not a red herring. Just because you wish something is true doesn't make it true. I'll bet there are a lot of departments that could be charged under RICO laws since their organization don't rat, y'see?

[Block]

Aren't you mentally ill? Have the police killed you?