Police officer cleared twice in two seperate unarmed deaths

[Lord Revan]

I wonder in how many of those cases the attacker was so drunk that their attacks were totally ineffective due being more wild swings at the general direction of the cops then anything else.

[TheHammer]

Just a point of clarification does it count as assault if I brandish a knife from twenty feet away? Because the ratio of "assault with" VS "injury" is running 9-1.

Under my state code brandishing and assault are two separate charges. So, it shouldn't but I do not know actually know what information the FBI uses to categorize this data.

Thanks it's just I don't expect the ratio to run that high unless there's wiggleroom somewhere in the law that says if I resist arrest and I have a knife in my pocket that's assault. Because otherwise your talking nine failed knife attacks for every successful one... somehow. Point is knife fights suck for everyone involved and I don't think we send out officers in power armor or train them in Jujutsu to produce those lopsided a set of numbers. 10,000 assaults fine, 10,000 assaults 1,000 officer injuries? Something's off with either the numbers or the definitions. I'm thinking either charge padding and/or if you try to assault a cop and have a gun on you that goes into the firearm group not the unarmed attack group despite no shots being fired.

Or maybe only 1 in ten criminals is competent, or 1 in 5... whatever.

It was actually 2,000 officer injuries, so 1 in 5 seems reasonable. It may only include injuries that required hospital treatment of some sort. You also have the aspect that many people who do attempt to assault officers lack the training and conditioning an officer would have that would allow them to avoid injury during an assault.

[Grumman]

I assume the 10,000 number would also include assaults ended with the use of tasers or pepper spray.

[Beowulf]

Theory: a group of cops, with a single guy. Guy takes a swing at a cop. Counted as an assault against all the cops in the group, especially after they dog pile him into compliance.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Does assaulting someone with a club or other improvised weapon count in these statistics? That might reduce the numbers of injuries somewhat. Maybe.

Those would fall under the category for "other dangerous weapons".

I wonder in how many of those cases the attacker was so drunk that their attacks were totally ineffective due being more wild swings at the general direction of the cops then anything else.

It sounds like you're describing simple assaults. In which case 39781 officers were listed as victims but what you said is entirely possible for simple assault statistics. This is why I didn't include them in my initial post.

I assume the 10,000 number would also include assaults ended with the use of tasers or pepper spray.

Maybe. It could also include instances of people escaping after an attack.

Theory: a group of cops, with a single guy. Guy takes a swing at a cop. Counted as an assault against all the cops in the group, especially after they dog pile him into compliance.

Eh. It's not impossible because obviously corruption exists within law enforcement. However, I can tell you that is not the proper way of doing it. What you described would be a single assault with multiple instances of resisting arrest which do not qualify as assault.

[Ziggy Stardust]

How much leeway is there for an officer to decide whether an action by a suspect is "resisting arrest" vs "assault"? Are there some cases that might be construed as one or the other depending on basically how pissed off the officer happened to be? I don't even mean in the case of a corrupt cop trumping up charges, but in the case of an honest officer who decides to take a more hardline stance for whatever reason.

[Edi]

This thread and the other police threads have been fascinating reading in terms of recent events here.

The day before yesterday, a guy murdered two others at a bar with an axe. When the cops found him in his apartment and went in in riot gear, the suspect hit the first cop on the head with the axe, was shot once, tried another swing, got shot again and died in the hospital. Open and shut case. Obviously, as this kind of thing is not a remotely common occurrence here, it has been all over the news, which has included some obligatory statistics on policing.

Police in Finland are involved in roughly one million encounters/incidents/interactions with citizens every year (the sort that get logged)
Number of firearm discharges per year: 10-15 (12 last year, of which 2 were warning shots)
Number of people killed by police: 3, during the past 10 years (the number climbs up to 6 when you go back as far as 1986). All of these were heavily armed and very dangerous.

Police fatalities on the job are next to nil, there was an incident several years ago when an escaped criminal killed two officers execution style in central Helsinki and that was one the worst killing of police officers in at least 50 years. He's never getting out of prison.

Given the number of guns in this country (most long weapons used for hunting), it's a wonder gun crime is as low as it is, but overall the American statistics look insane.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

[Kamakazie Sith]

How much leeway is there for an officer to decide whether an action by a suspect is "resisting arrest" vs "assault"? Are there some cases that might be construed as one or the other depending on basically how pissed off the officer happened to be? I don't even mean in the case of a corrupt cop trumping up charges, but in the case of an honest officer who decides to take a more hardline stance for whatever reason.

If we're just talking about an honest officer then there isn't much leeway. The difference between resisting arrest and assault on a police officer is significant. If an officer decided to take a hardline stance against a resisting suspect and charge him with assault on a police officer then the charges would either get dismissed by the prosecutor because they wouldn't fit the elements or the officer is a liar.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

Would you mind expanding on that a bit?

[TheFeniX]

The U.S. has like... no safety net. Recidivism rates are stupidly high. Now, the popular "giterdun" comment is that it's obvious that felons just like robbing people. But they have extremely limited options to rehabilitate. Being a felon is a one-way ticket to your job application making it into the trash-can. It states like Texas even minor possession convictions are a lifetime mark that any potential employer can find. Getting food-stamps as a convicted felon is next to impossible.

For just another point of hilarity: at my job, getting busted with Pot (or any controlled substance) gets you a lifetime ban from more than one of our client jobsites. Lifetime. And we're required to give them the name per our contract, so even if they found another job in our field.... no dice. But there's no law against sending, say, a convicted murderer out there. In fact, they don't care about felonies at all: only drug convictions and failed lab tests.

Dealing drugs is awesome right? For the top guys, yea. For the other 90%, they'd be better of working at MickyDs, provided they could actually get a job there. There's this notion, at least in Texas although I assume everywhere else, that people steal, rob, or kill for the kicks. Whereas I'm sure there's more than a few like that, the idea that someone is committing crime to keep from starving is alien to them.

The U.S. doesn't rehabilite it's criminals. It locks them it a box for X amount of time (less if they need to make room for more mandatory minimum drug convictions) then dumps them back into a world that can just google their rap-sheet, with little to no supervision and people wonder why they end up back in jail, or dead.

There's a reason a small number (comparatively) of felons commit the majority of crime in the U.S. But trying to fight that by attacking the root of the problem gets you labelled as "soft on crime." Fuck, I've been called a liberal (a scathing Texas insult) because I don't have a problem with convicts getting their GEDs and would actually force them to get them (or at least try) as part of their prison sentence. I'm "soft on crime" because I want released criminals to get a job rather than getting a gun and trying to rob me. Not that a GED, or even a BA, would do them any real good. But it's a start.

[salm]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

I think living in Finland and having to pay for insulin are mutually exclusive.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

I think living in Finland and having to pay for insulin are mutually exclusive.

I think his point was that the lack of safety net in the US means that not only can the rich poor gap be insanely large, but it also breeds deep desperation which in turn is the reason for the ridiculous crime rate in some places in the US, which are practically ghettos.

[salm]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

I think living in Finland and having to pay for insulin are mutually exclusive.

I think his point was that the lack of safety net in the US means that not only can the rich poor gap be insanely large, but it also breeds deep desperation which in turn is the reason for the ridiculous crime rate in some places in the US, which are practically ghettos.

I know but he asked out of curiosity.

[Simon_Jester]

Me, I want to know what Kamikaze Sith, personally, has to say, out of sheer curiosity about his opinions.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I think the wonder ceases when you consider the state of health care and social services in the United States.

Just out of curiosity and to possibly serve as an example; how much does insulin cost in Finland? In the US, if your insurance doesn't cover it, like PEHP (insurance for public employees) then it will run you IIRC $700/month.

Would you mind expanding on that a bit?

Basically, the state of health care and the lack of safety net in the US may be the cause for the high instances of mental illness in the United States along with the high crime rate in certain areas.

I brought up the example of insulin because I have a coworker that has type one diabetes and his quality of life is seriously reduced because he has to fork over roughly $700 a month out of his own pocket to pay for this medication.

I think living in Finland and having to pay for insulin are mutually exclusive.

I realize that but do you have to pay that much out of your own pocket?

[Kamakazie Sith]

double post

[Patroklos]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/22/da ... his-hands/

I am curious what you guys think about this. The cop is black in this case but I am concerned about the use of deadly force in this case. The issue most people I talk to about this revolves around whether the deceased moved fast or slow enough for the officer to realize what he was doing before he shot.

[Kamakazie Sith]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/22/da ... his-hands/

I am curious what you guys think about this. The cop is black in this case but I am concerned about the use of deadly force in this case. The issue most people I talk to about this revolves around whether the deceased moved fast or slow enough for the officer to realize what he was doing before he shot.

I've heard that the victim had a history of shooting at officers and had a firearm in reach. Again, this is yet another example of the consequences that come with failing to follow instructions and having a history of violence along with the means to inflict deadly force on another.

[madd0ct0r]

he was pretty clear in his instructions too - "if you reach for something, I am going to shoot you". better then OP video.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I brought up the example of insulin because I have a coworker that has type one diabetes and his quality of life is seriously reduced because he has to fork over roughly $700 a month out of his own pocket to pay for this medication.

Wait wait... Public Employee health insurance in Utah does not cover Type I Diabetes? Why? Because it is a pre-existing condition and they would cover Type II? 0_o

I was under the impression that ACA nixed that sort of BS and put insulin coverage fully in the "Thou Shalt Cover category.

[Terralthra]

Could be a part-timer, which many public employers don't cover.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I brought up the example of insulin because I have a coworker that has type one diabetes and his quality of life is seriously reduced because he has to fork over roughly $700 a month out of his own pocket to pay for this medication.

Wait wait... Public Employee health insurance in Utah does not cover Type I Diabetes? Why? Because it is a pre-existing condition and they would cover Type II? 0_o

I was under the impression that ACA nixed that sort of BS and put insulin coverage fully in the "Thou Shalt Cover category.

Actually, his onset was during his employment as a public employee. Based on what he, and others, have told me insulin is not covered or the coverage is so insignificant.

Could be a part-timer, which many public employers don't cover.

He's full time.