Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a child

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Jub
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Jub » 2014-12-11 08:28pm

@Simon and Ziggy:

The point I was aiming to make was that some form of national level police force would be desirable. It would take over the training and enforcement of national level policies. Then if say something happens on the east coast, you could bring in an investigator from the west coast that was assigned to a different local level police force and thus, in some eyes, avoid the calls of bias.

You might also note that Canada is just as large and just as diverse, but far more homogenized when it comes to national level programs and with far fewer major social issues even in our largest cities. You won't see race riots in Toronto or Vancouver and police brutality is dealt with in far more serious fashion with mere assaults, let alone murders, by officers going to well publicized trial. Yes our population is less, but look at Alberta compared to Nova Scotia and tell me that that aren't just as different in terms of needs as most US states are from one another, then tell me that national level programs like the RCMP don't work.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2014-12-11 09:18pm

Fair enough. I am definitely on board for a revamped oversight system for the police. I don't know necessarily whether the right way to go is the way you describe, or some alternate plan. I don't know enough about the logistics and consequences of one plan over any other.

For example, I'm not sure if just bringing in someone from the West Coast for an East Coast crime is necessarily worthwhile or sufficient if you are looking to eliminate bias. I think socioeconomic characteristics are far significant than geographical boundaries in creating corrupt systems.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Jub » 2014-12-11 10:37pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:For example, I'm not sure if just bringing in someone from the West Coast for an East Coast crime is necessarily worthwhile or sufficient if you are looking to eliminate bias. I think socioeconomic characteristics are far significant than geographical boundaries in creating corrupt systems.
It's more to do with officers that won't be effected by the outcome of the trial investigating the events. It would be harder, though certainly not impossible, for people to get as upset if somebody came on the news and said, "I'm not from here, but if what the people think happened really did happen I want to find out and clean up this police force." If the local force tries to wall the outsider off then the outsider goes and gets the big guns, legally speaking, and starts tearing down that forces records from top to bottom. You need that kind of top down accountability, not only for these big news stories, but for the small town cops that run a little fiefdom and need a boot to help them out the door.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by sarevok2 » 2014-12-12 09:28am

Why are no knock warrants are allowed ?

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Kamakazie Sith
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-12-12 10:22pm

sarevok2 wrote:Why are no knock warrants are allowed ?
They are allowed because it is believed the no knock warrants reduce the opportunity a suspect has to acquire a weapon and take a position of advantage. There are plenty of examples of officers using knock and announce warrants only to meant by gunfire upon entry or during clearing.

There are also plenty of examples of no knock warrants also leading to gunfire against police upon entry or during clearing or citizens responding to a perceived break in to only be cut down by police gunfire. So, they are rightfully questioned.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-12-12 10:26pm

Jub wrote:@Simon and Ziggy:

The point I was aiming to make was that some form of national level police force would be desirable. It would take over the training and enforcement of national level policies. Then if say something happens on the east coast, you could bring in an investigator from the west coast that was assigned to a different local level police force and thus, in some eyes, avoid the calls of bias.

You might also note that Canada is just as large and just as diverse, but far more homogenized when it comes to national level programs and with far fewer major social issues even in our largest cities. You won't see race riots in Toronto or Vancouver and police brutality is dealt with in far more serious fashion with mere assaults, let alone murders, by officers going to well publicized trial. Yes our population is less, but look at Alberta compared to Nova Scotia and tell me that that aren't just as different in terms of needs as most US states are from one another, then tell me that national level programs like the RCMP don't work.
I completely agree with a national police force. In addition to the points Jub raises I also think it would improve training nationwide because it would provide a central source of funding and departments would be less effected by local economic issues.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Brock » 2014-12-13 12:43am

A national police accountability system might be better than risking political incompetence and the enshrining of police fails in a national police force. The closest thing right now to a national federal police is the TSA. And boy are some people upset with the TSA, and they don't even have training or powers of arrest. But anyway, its about real and effective public accountability.

Even something as basic as the number of people killed by police is unclear, let alone the demographics of the shootings, because the closest thing to a national database is voluntary reporting of 750 of the 17000 law enforcement agencies to the FBI.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Jub » 2014-12-13 01:43am

General Brock wrote:A national police accountability system might be better than risking political incompetence and the enshrining of police fails in a national police force. The closest thing right now to a national federal police is the TSA. And boy are some people upset with the TSA, and they don't even have training or powers of arrest. But anyway, its about real and effective public accountability.

Even something as basic as the number of people killed by police is unclear, let alone the demographics of the shootings, because the closest thing to a national database is voluntary reporting of 750 of the 17000 law enforcement agencies to the FBI.
National level programs aren't inherently bad or good, just as the TSA is terrible the US military is pretty good. Could you imagine if instead of a national military the US had 50 different national guards. Leaving aside the issues of patch work levels of training and equipment, think of a case where a large force from says Texas or California could refuse to send troops into a war because of an ideological difference with the national government? This is kind of how police forces are now.

A police force in a poor area is going to have less training and worse equipment than a force in a wealthy area; a small town sheriff can still basically run a fiefdom if he can continue to run unopposed; and a force as a whole can be backwards on social issues because a majority of their population hates gays or something. This isn't a desirable way to have police work and even something with the poor reputation of the TSA would improve the quality of policing in some areas.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2014-12-13 09:09am

Jub wrote: A police force in a poor area is going to have less training and worse equipment than a force in a wealthy area; a small town sheriff can still basically run a fiefdom if he can continue to run unopposed; and a force as a whole can be backwards on social issues because a majority of their population hates gays or something.
Not to get the thread off on a tangent, but this is precisely the case in my home town of Barrington, Rhode Island. The town over all is middle class, but one section of town (Rumstick Point) is super expensive, beach-side mansions. There are very wealthy and very influential (in terms of in-state politics) people living there (interesting tidbit: the actor Jason Isaacs briefly lived there, when he was making the show "Brotherhood", which was all filmed in RI. I went trick-or-treating to his house on Halloween once). The town police force are, in a lot of ways, glorified private security for the rich folk. The town is quiet enough that they don't have anything to do except bust high school parties and suck up to rich folk. As a result, this police department is INCREDIBLY well-funded; they have this absolutely massive new facility, replaced all of their normal cruisers with those souped-up Dodge Charger chase cars, a "Mobile Command Center", etc. etc. Those Chargers, designed for highway chases, spend most of their time parked on the end of Rumstick Point making sure no undesirables wander into the rich neighborhood. And the police chief recently got himself in a bit of a scandal when it turned out he was hosting a party for the rich folk at his house (attendants included the mayor and other local politicians) and all of their underage kids were allowed to drink and drive home.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Brock » 2014-12-15 12:47am

Jub wrote: National level programs aren't inherently bad or good, just as the TSA is terrible the US military is pretty good. Could you imagine if instead of a national military the US had 50 different national guards. Leaving aside the issues of patch work levels of training and equipment, think of a case where a large force from says Texas or California could refuse to send troops into a war because of an ideological difference with the national government? This is kind of how police forces are now.

A police force in a poor area is going to have less training and worse equipment than a force in a wealthy area; a small town sheriff can still basically run a fiefdom if he can continue to run unopposed; and a force as a whole can be backwards on social issues because a majority of their population hates gays or something. This isn't a desirable way to have police work and even something with the poor reputation of the TSA would improve the quality of policing in some areas.
I hadn't considered that. The RCMP uses contract policing. The wealthiest provinces, Ontario and Quebec, opt out and have their own provincial police, and Newfoundland and Labrador retained their pre-Confederation force. Smaller centres with access to a provincial police force usually contract their provincial force, not the RC.

Most states probably wouldn't accept a federal police force. The legalistic differences between Canada and the United States make a U.S. Federal Police a difficult proposition.

Heck, there are even Americans who question the constitutionality of the police, which is very interesting, till someone needs a cop.

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