Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a child

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Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a child

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2014-11-22 02:05am

VENTURA, Calif. (CN) - A 2-year-old boy was burned by a police smoke bomb in a terrifying "no knock" raid at the wrong home, his family claims in court.

The boy's parents, Jose and Paulina Salinas, sued the City of Oxnard and its Police Department in Superior Court on Monday.

The parents and their three minor children seek damages for assault, battery, trespass, false imprisonment and infliction of emotional distress.

Jason Benites, assistant chief with the Oxnard Police Department, told Courthouse News in an email that the department could not comment on pending litigation.

However, he sent a press release from April, which reported that a 2-year-old boy had been injured during a "multi-location search warrant operation" conducted by several agencies to combat gang activity.

"At one of the search warrant locations, a 2-year old sustained minor injuries," the statement said. "The child was transported to a local hospital, where he was treated and released."

In their lawsuit, the Salinas family says they were sleeping on April 16, around 4 a.m., when they were awakened by scuffling footsteps and vehicles outside their condominium. When Jose Salinas drew the curtains of his bedroom window, he saw the barrel of a policeman's gun pointed at him.

Police broke the front windows of the home and set off three smoke bombs. Police then crashed through the front door with guns drawn, yelling, "Get down and put your hands to your head!"

With laser guns pointed at them, Paulina and Jose Salinas were handcuffed and put to their knees. Their 10-year-old daughter and 6-year-old son were shoved into a corner.

As police approached one of the bedrooms, Paulina Salinas and her two older children told officers there was a 2-year-old in the room. Police ignored them, told them to cover their ears, and threw a smoke bomb into the room as 2-year-old Justin Salinas stood near the door.

When the smoke bomb detonated, shrapnel from the blast hit Justin in the foot, causing first-degree burns and glass cuts.

The family was detained for four hours although "there was no resemblance of any claimant to any of the previous tenants at the location," according to the complaint.

The statement from Oxnard police does not say whether the boy's home was wrongly targeted. Three adults and one juvenile were arrested in the three-city operation, and police afterward were still looking for three suspects with felony arrest warrants. A research database examined by Courthouse News Service shows that one of those suspects, Frank Ruiz, 32, once lived in the condo the Salinas family occupied.

The Salinas family had moved there roughly four months before the raid, according to the lawsuit.

"The incident left each member of the Salinas family physically and emotionally shaken, traumatized and in constant fear for their safety," according to the complaint, filed by Ron Bamieh, a former Ventura County prosecutor now with Ventura law firm Bamieh & Erickson. "They now feel that their home is a dangerous place to live and are scared to death and rattled by any noise they hear at night."

Justin is "afraid of the dark and of people in general," while the other two children "suffer recurring nightmares, and are terrified of sleeping alone," the lawsuit states.

Damage to the home included broken windows, a door ripped off its frame, and walls stained by smoke and burn marks.

A message left for Bamieh at his office was not returned Tuesday.

The search warrant operation was conducted by the Oxnard Police Department, the Ventura County Sheriff's Office, investigators from the Ventura County District Attorney's Office and the FBI in an effort to crack down on gang members believed to have guns, according to the Oxnard police. During the operation, conducted in Oxnard, Camarillo and El Rio, the four people arrested were charged with various crimes, including possession of ammunition, being under the influence of a controlled substance and vandalism
http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/11/1 ... y-says.htm

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by TheFeniX » 2014-11-22 03:30am

A research database examined by Courthouse News Service shows that one of those suspects, Frank Ruiz, 32, once lived in the condo the Salinas family occupied.
Why bother with making sure your information is current when you've got millions of dollars in used/new military equipment you're itching to bust out? Dude, Jose Salinas? Sounds like a gangbanger to me.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by KlavoHunter » 2014-11-22 01:47pm

Quit giving the fucking police grenades.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by PKRudeBoy » 2014-11-22 02:19pm

KlavoHunter wrote:Quit giving the fucking police grenades.
Or just change the cops RoE, so that the only time they can be used is when a proven threat to people's lives exist, ie a hostage situation. I can accept this kind of collateral damage if someone's life is in immediate danger, but not because umm... Drugs are bad!

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-11-22 03:40pm

PKRudeBoy wrote:
KlavoHunter wrote:Quit giving the fucking police grenades.
Or just change the cops RoE, so that the only time they can be used is when a proven threat to people's lives exist, ie a hostage situation. I can accept this kind of collateral damage if someone's life is in immediate danger, but not because umm... Drugs are bad!
I thought it was about gang members with guns and not drugs.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by TheFeniX » 2014-11-22 04:28pm

Cops using smoke/flash grenades to subdue targets isn't really an issue: they need to protect themselves even though I can't figure out how smoke protects anyone in that kind of situation. Really, this is just another case of cops casting a wide net based off outdated information and innocent people getting caught in the middle. The cynic in me is just glad no one got killed.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by PKRudeBoy » 2014-11-22 04:32pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
PKRudeBoy wrote:
KlavoHunter wrote:Quit giving the fucking police grenades.
Or just change the cops RoE, so that the only time they can be used is when a proven threat to people's lives exist, ie a hostage situation. I can accept this kind of collateral damage if someone's life is in immediate danger, but not because umm... Drugs are bad!
I thought it was about gang members with guns and not drugs.
I was replying to the idea that cops shouldn't have access to grenades in general. I think cops should have access to them, but strictly for emergency situations.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-11-22 05:30pm

TheFeniX wrote:Cops using smoke/flash grenades to subdue targets isn't really an issue: they need to protect themselves even though I can't figure out how smoke protects anyone in that kind of situation. Really, this is just another case of cops casting a wide net based off outdated information and innocent people getting caught in the middle. The cynic in me is just glad no one got killed.
They chose smoke over a flash bang because they were told children were in the room. Not that I agree with that decision.
PKRudeBoy wrote: I was replying to the idea that cops shouldn't have access to grenades in general. I think cops should have access to them, but strictly for emergency situations.
Well, I wouldn't consider armed gang members an emergency situation but I would consider that the situation in which diversionary tactics are appropriate. The reality is with this time of situation if you don't use them and a cop gets killed then the one who planned the operation will have some serious questions to answer. Though, I think "kids in the room" is a perfectly acceptable reason to try some other options.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2014-12-07 06:18am

A three city wide operation targeting six people, the locations of whom are uncertain because it is 4 months out of date in what amounts to rental space... and they go in with the full court press SWAT with heavy armaments. To execute a search warrant. Without doing so much as a days recon to determine if someone else lives in the residence?

Yeah. No. Not justified.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Alyeska » 2014-12-07 12:43pm

Article one sided much? The author wrote it without talking to a single expert. Explosive smoke bombs, Laser Guns? I'm surprised he didn't describe the SWAT vehicle as a tank.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Zod » 2014-12-07 03:49pm

Alyeska wrote:Article one sided much? The author wrote it without talking to a single expert. Explosive smoke bombs, Laser Guns? I'm surprised he didn't describe the SWAT vehicle as a tank.
I don't see how not knowing anything about guns makes it one-sided. Is there ever any justification for SWAT fucking up and raiding the wrong house?
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-12-07 03:52pm

General Zod wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Article one sided much? The author wrote it without talking to a single expert. Explosive smoke bombs, Laser Guns? I'm surprised he didn't describe the SWAT vehicle as a tank.
I don't see how not knowing anything about guns makes it one-sided. Is there ever any justification for SWAT fucking up and raiding the wrong house?
It was the right house based off the intel they had.

What I want to know is whether or not any research was done to see if this person was still living at that location because if they were OK serving a high risk warrant with four month old intel then they are 100% in the wrong here.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Zod » 2014-12-07 03:56pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Article one sided much? The author wrote it without talking to a single expert. Explosive smoke bombs, Laser Guns? I'm surprised he didn't describe the SWAT vehicle as a tank.
I don't see how not knowing anything about guns makes it one-sided. Is there ever any justification for SWAT fucking up and raiding the wrong house?
It was the right house based off the intel they had.

What I want to know is whether or not any research was done to see if this person was still living at that location because if they were OK serving a high risk warrant with four month old intel then they are 100% in the wrong here.
That seems like basically the same thing, really. They didn't bother double-checking any of their information before they used it to justify a raid.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-12-07 10:06pm

General Zod wrote: That seems like basically the same thing, really. They didn't bother double-checking any of their information before they used it to justify a raid.
Yeah, that's what I said. The point of my post is I would like to know if they did do any research or if it was just criminal negligence. It's one thing if they received recent intel that their target was there. It's another thing if they said "Hey, he lived here four months ago. Let's go get him!".
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Brock » 2014-12-07 10:49pm

How often do these civil suits work out for the victims anyway?

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2014-12-07 11:35pm

Usually pretty well, but you have to remember that even if they win, the money will come out of the city's coffers so regardless the police will see no consequences.

I once heard suggestion I like: losing or settling a lawsuit should come out of the police force's pension fund. Just watch the use of force incidents go down. :P

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by General Brock » 2014-12-07 11:56pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:Usually pretty well, but you have to remember that even if they win, the money will come out of the city's coffers so regardless the police will see no consequences.

I once heard suggestion I like: losing or settling a lawsuit should come out of the police force's pension fund. Just watch the use of force incidents go down. :P
8) Gosh, sounds like a perfectly ingenious solution. They should implement at once.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Sky Captain » 2014-12-08 05:10am

How many similar raids happen in US in a year? It would be interesting to know how often there are fuckups like this one vs everything going according to plan and how does it compare to other countries?

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Purple » 2014-12-08 07:24am

General Brock wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:Usually pretty well, but you have to remember that even if they win, the money will come out of the city's coffers so regardless the police will see no consequences.

I once heard suggestion I like: losing or settling a lawsuit should come out of the police force's pension fund. Just watch the use of force incidents go down. :P
8) Gosh, sounds like a perfectly ingenious solution. They should implement at once.
The obvious problem with that is the fact that you would be punishing the entire police force for the actions of one bad apple. I say simply have the city pay and than tax officer to pay it off from his wages and retirement payments until he succeeds or dies.
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You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Vendetta » 2014-12-08 08:43am

Is it really one bad apple though?

Or is it systematic overmilitarisation coupled with lack of due diligence when applying militarised tactics and weapons, and an underlying problem with the relationship between police forces and the communities they are intended to police which makes confrontation more likely and the consequences of it worse?

Because it rather looks like the latter.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-12-08 10:36am

It is a normal principle of warfare that one never commits to an attack without reconnaissance prior to the battle.
Purple wrote:The obvious problem with that is the fact that you would be punishing the entire police force for the actions of one bad apple. I say simply have the city pay and than tax officer to pay it off from his wages and retirement payments until he succeeds or dies.
1) That may not be enough money.
2) In many cases, these kinds of lethal or harmful police screwups don't reflect any special malice on the policeman's part. They reflect poor training, bad operational decisions like "send the SWAT team to the wrong house," and split-second reflex actions like "in darkened house after sundown, interpret five-foot-figure raising their hand as a small man with a gun instead of an eleven-year-old with a toy." Ruining one individual's life over such things unduly concentrates the penalty, especially in cases where it's debateable whose fault the mistake is.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Purple » 2014-12-08 03:45pm

Simon_Jester wrote:2) In many cases, these kinds of lethal or harmful police screwups don't reflect any special malice on the policeman's part. They reflect poor training, bad operational decisions like "send the SWAT team to the wrong house," and split-second reflex actions like "in darkened house after sundown, interpret five-foot-figure raising their hand as a small man with a gun instead of an eleven-year-old with a toy." Ruining one individual's life over such things unduly concentrates the penalty, especially in cases where it's debateable whose fault the mistake is.
I agree with your general idea that training is at fault, but I disagree on the details. In particular I feel that all of the above would not be a problem if the police force had not forgotten to train its men in the most essential thing of all. That being what their actual job is. Police are not supposed to be enforcers of the law but guardians protecting citizens from one another. And like other civil services of a similar nature (Health care workers, firemen, soldiers,...) in that capacity they are or at least should be expected to willingly err on the side of danger to them self rather than danger to civilians. That is to say that if someone points a gun at them, or charges at them or does any thing that for regular civilians would permit the use of force in self defense they should wait until the very last possible moment and only than use as little force as they possibly can even if that gets them killed. Because it's in their job description to die rather than let an innocent die for them. We have the same expectations of doctors treating Ebola patients, firemen whom we expect to run into burning buildings to save people and others like them. And yet your police seems to have forgotten that.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2014-12-08 07:28pm

Purple wrote: I agree with your general idea that training is at fault, but I disagree on the details. In particular I feel that all of the above would not be a problem if the police force had not forgotten to train its men in the most essential thing of all. That being what their actual job is. Police are not supposed to be enforcers of the law but guardians protecting citizens from one another. And like other civil services of a similar nature (Health care workers, firemen, soldiers,...) in that capacity they are or at least should be expected to willingly err on the side of danger to them self rather than danger to civilians. That is to say that if someone points a gun at them, or charges at them or does any thing that for regular civilians would permit the use of force in self defense they should wait until the very last possible moment and only than use as little force as they possibly can even if that gets them killed. Because it's in their job description to die rather than let an innocent die for them. We have the same expectations of doctors treating Ebola patients, firemen whom we expect to run into burning buildings to save people and others like them. And yet your police seems to have forgotten that.
Police are suppose to be enforcers of the law. Where did you hear that police aren't suppose to be that? You can also be enforcers of the law and protect people from each other and they are trained to err on the side of danger to them when other innocents are involved. It sounds like you're asking them to err on the side of danger to suspects. That's never been how policing is done in the United States. The priority of life in the US has always been as follows; 1 - innocents, 2 - police, 3 - suspect.

Your next part makes no sense. How is a person that points a gun at a cop, charges at them, or does something that would permit a regular citizen to use force in self defense "innocent"?

By the way, firemen won't run into burning buildings that have reached a certain stage of engulfment. They also won't run into a burning building without their equipment on. They do this for important reasons. Not because the lives at risk aren't important but because dead firemen can't save anyone. Same thing with cops. A dead cop can't help anybody.
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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Purple » 2014-12-08 07:59pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Police are suppose to be enforcers of the law. Where did you hear that police aren't suppose to be that? You can also be enforcers of the law and protect people from each other and they are trained to err on the side of danger to them when other innocents are involved. It sounds like you're asking them to err on the side of danger to suspects. That's never been how policing is done in the United States. The priority of life in the US has always been as follows; 1 - innocents, 2 - police, 3 - suspect.
And that I feel is the reason for all these police related murders. It's not that the officers in question are evil. But that they place their lives before the lives of suspects. In fact the word suspect in your post is telling. "Suspect", as in a person suspected off but not convicted off any crime. Your officers are trained to fight back when they suspect there is danger. So when they suspect that there is a threat they act on it. And this quite often leads to innocent people getting harmed because their suspicions were wrong.
Your next part makes no sense. How is a person that points a gun at a cop, charges at them, or does something that would permit a regular citizen to use force in self defense "innocent"?
And here we go again with the guilt and innocence thing. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Everyone is innocent until convicted by a court of law. So yes, someone who flat out shoots a police officer in the head is innocent until convicted. What does that have to do with anything?
By the way, firemen won't run into burning buildings that have reached a certain stage of engulfment. They also won't run into a burning building without their equipment on. They do this for important reasons. Not because the lives at risk aren't important but because dead firemen can't save anyone. Same thing with cops. A dead cop can't help anybody.
And a living cop that's failed to save the guy he just killed due to bad judgment?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.

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Re: Another police raid leading to flashbang injuries on a c

Post by Jub » 2014-12-08 08:19pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Police are suppose to be enforcers of the law. Where did you hear that police aren't suppose to be that? You can also be enforcers of the law and protect people from each other and they are trained to err on the side of danger to them when other innocents are involved. It sounds like you're asking them to err on the side of danger to suspects. That's never been how policing is done in the United States. The priority of life in the US has always been as follows; 1 - innocents, 2 - police, 3 - suspect.

Your next part makes no sense. How is a person that points a gun at a cop, charges at them, or does something that would permit a regular citizen to use force in self defense "innocent"?

By the way, firemen won't run into burning buildings that have reached a certain stage of engulfment. They also won't run into a burning building without their equipment on. They do this for important reasons. Not because the lives at risk aren't important but because dead firemen can't save anyone. Same thing with cops. A dead cop can't help anybody.
Not to get into this again with you, but police elsewhere seem to have less issues with allowing the suspect to get the first shots in, Thanas has reported this time and time again about German police firing warning shots and aiming for limbs. American police have a very me first mentality police in other place recognize that even the suspect should be put before themselves until it is proven and not merely suspected that they are a threat.

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