What Black Parents Tell Their Sons About the Police

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, anyone else picking up on the irony of a motherfucker calling himself Batman questioning the use of force or anything else of cops?

[Borgholio]

Depending on which era, Batman sometimes isn't too fond of the Police either. And as far as his methods go, yes he is violent, but has he ever murdered someone for shoplifting at a Walmart?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok, anyone else picking up on the irony of a motherfucker calling himself Batman questioning the use of force or anything else of cops?

I think the psychology behind it is kind of interesting. If people watch a movie with a cop beating a suspect it seems like most people will be angry at that. When people watch Batman and he beats the hell out of people, hangs them from buildings, tortures them seems like a majority are OK with it.

[Zor]

Police are necessary to keep order, but they need the trust of the community in order to do so effectively. Actions like this squander and abuse that trust.

The thing about trust is that it is a two way street and blanketing all cops as being militarized thugs that relish any opportunity to beat, tase, tear gas or shoot people and especially minorities because of the actions of a few is not conducive to that. Yes, subject them to thorough oversight and realize that, like with any large body of human beings by the laws of averages you will get your share of assholes among their ranks. But don't vilify all of them and say they are all unworthy of trust and to be treated as the enemy for the actions of a few as Havok advocated.

Zor

[Gandalf]

Police are necessary to keep order, but they need the trust of the community in order to do so effectively. Actions like this squander and abuse that trust.

The thing about trust is that it is a two way street and blanketing all cops as being militarized thugs that relish any opportunity to beat, tase, tear gas or shoot people and especially minorities because of the actions of a few is not conducive to that. Yes, subject them to thorough oversight and realize that, like with any large body of human beings by the laws of averages you will get your share of assholes among their ranks. But don't vilify all of them and say they are all unworthy of trust and to be treated as the enemy for the actions of a few as Havok advocated.

Zor

You talk about how a few arseholes will always appear in any organisation. That's fine. But where this goes wrong is that when they do things like shoot teenagers, or tear gas film crews, they do no appear to be reprimanded. Why trust an organisation that can drive off the road while reading emails and get off?

If an organisation makes a show of integrity, then they can earn trust back.

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, anyone else picking up on the irony of a motherfucker calling himself Batman questioning the use of force or anything else of cops?

I think the psychology behind it is kind of interesting. If people watch a movie with a cop beating a suspect it seems like most people will be angry at that. When people watch Batman and he beats the hell out of people, hangs them from buildings, tortures them seems like a majority are OK with it.

You know the sight of society if fucked when one of our local LEO fucks is the responsible person.

KS, defuse this shit, bro. I looked and, well, you do it.

[eyl]

You talk about how a few arseholes will always appear in any organisation. That's fine. But where this goes wrong is that when they do things like shoot teenagers, or tear gas film crews, they do no appear to be reprimanded. Why trust an organisation that can drive off the road while reading emails and get off?

If an organisation makes a show of integrity, then they can earn trust back.

It seems to me, though, that part of the problem is that the police in the US is not an organization; it's a lot of separate organizations, most of which have little to do with one another. However, the behavior of one (or several) police organization still affect's peoples' perspectives on all of them.

[Maraxus]

You talk about how a few arseholes will always appear in any organisation. That's fine. But where this goes wrong is that when they do things like shoot teenagers, or tear gas film crews, they do no appear to be reprimanded. Why trust an organisation that can drive off the road while reading emails and get off?

If an organisation makes a show of integrity, then they can earn trust back.

It seems to me, though, that part of the problem is that the police in the US is not an organization; it's a lot of separate organizations, most of which have little to do with one another. However, the behavior of one (or several) police organization still affect's peoples' perspectives on all of them.

That's a part of it. We were in four (five?) separate jurisdictions when I lived up in Santa Barbara. The Santa Barbara PD, Goleta (nearby retirement community of a city) PD, Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department, and the UCSB campus police all had jurisdiction over the little slum where we lived. The CHiPs got involved too. Obviously they don't all police the same beat at the same time, but when we had a big campus-wide party they'd all show up. My last year saw the cops erect baracades at every intersection, as well as bring in two or three helicoptors and several score of horse-mounted officers. Generally speaking, the SBPD and campus PD were relatively chill, leastwise to me. The Goleta PD were generally assholes and the SB Sheriffs could be downright fascistic.

AFAIK, states have municipal police departments, county sheriffs for county-wide law enforcement and for rural areas, plus statewide agencies like the California Highway Patrol or the Forest Rangers. Don't have a national law enforcement force per-se, though the National Guard or Army occasionally gets called in when civil unrest gets really hairy.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Zor, the police are in a position of power over damn near everyone. Sure, most police are probably largely decent people. But say you do get that one asshole cop? He can make you lose your job if he really wants to. He can shoot your, mace you, tase you... And if there aren't any cameras around, who will the criminal justice system believe? You? Or the cop? (Hint: Probably not you, unless you've got a mountain sized pile of evidence indicating innocence)

Of course, even if it's demonstrated that you didn't do anything illegal, the cop probably can get away with falsely arresting you or beating you bloody. Paid administrative leave while they "investigate" the incident and then if they want to make an example of the dickwaffle cop they'll give him some sort of slap on the wrist reprimand.

Now, if you're a minority? And you get that asshole cop? You're up shit creek without a paddle, and quite probably hog-tied, too. Just looking at statistics you can see more than enough justification for someone who even looks like a minority to believe the police are, if not out to get them specifically, at least suspicious of them and ready to pounce at the slightest hint of "misdeed." Such as sitting down. Or wearing a hoodie. Or "acting suspiciously." Oh, or maybe "looking like a suspect." That can happen even if you're white! I had a manager get detained by the police a few months back because her boyfriend "looked like a suspect" in a robbery. (Bit of a long story) The similarity? Both had facial hair. This is Utah, so odds are strong her boyfriend is white. So even if your complexion could be compared to sour cream the police might just decide you're "suspicious" or some shit.


If the police didn't have the ability to fuck your life up with impunity, maybe people could afford to default to trusting every cop they meet. But that isn't the case. Even if a cop does end up facing criminal charges the charges and sentencing will almost definitely be much less severe than if an Average Joe did it. About the only people who are similarly above the law are the rich motherfuckers that can basically purchase a police department anyway.

[Zor]

Zor, the police are in a position of power over damn near everyone. Sure, most police are probably largely decent people. But say you do get that one asshole cop? He can make you lose your job if he really wants to. He can shoot your, mace you, tase you... And if there aren't any cameras around, who will the criminal justice system believe? You? Or the cop? (Hint: Probably not you, unless you've got a mountain sized pile of evidence indicating innocence)

Of course, even if it's demonstrated that you didn't do anything illegal, the cop probably can get away with falsely arresting you or beating you bloody. Paid administrative leave while they "investigate" the incident and then if they want to make an example of the dickwaffle cop they'll give him some sort of slap on the wrist reprimand.

Now, if you're a minority? And you get that asshole cop? You're up shit creek without a paddle, and quite probably hog-tied, too. Just looking at statistics you can see more than enough justification for someone who even looks like a minority to believe the police are, if not out to get them specifically, at least suspicious of them and ready to pounce at the slightest hint of "misdeed." Such as sitting down. Or wearing a hoodie. Or "acting suspiciously." Oh, or maybe "looking like a suspect." That can happen even if you're white! I had a manager get detained by the police a few months back because her boyfriend "looked like a suspect" in a robbery. (Bit of a long story) The similarity? Both had facial hair. This is Utah, so odds are strong her boyfriend is white. So even if your complexion could be compared to sour cream the police might just decide you're "suspicious" or some shit.

If the police didn't have the ability to fuck your life up with impunity, maybe people could afford to default to trusting every cop they meet. But that isn't the case. Even if a cop does end up facing criminal charges the charges and sentencing will almost definitely be much less severe than if an Average Joe did it. About the only people who are similarly above the law are the rich motherfuckers that can basically purchase a police department anyway.

That still does not justify Havok's idiot hard and fast "NOBODY SHOULD EVER TRUST POLICE IN ANY WAY, SENSE OR FORM FOR THEY ARE THE ENEMY OUT TO GET YOU!" nonsense.

I know Police have powers beyond what the average citizen has to perform, and that some police officers can and do abuse their positions and that interactions with the police warrant a certain level of caution and discretion. That still does not warrant treating all cops with contempt. There is a reason why Police forces were first created in the 19th century and why they were adopted around the world to this day. Being a police officer is a difficult, dangerous job necessary for modern society to function which is ultimately performed by human beings for good and for ill. Because a police officer somewhere did something horrible does not mean you should blanket all of them for doing so. Because a general populace doing so will give the bad apples more opportunities to abuse their power and get away with it and build up the resentment among those for the most part are decent enough to shift them towards asshole country or encourage them to turn a blind eye to things and make it worse. I am strongly against dirty cops for that reason and why police should have constant oversight to keep them from crossing that line. As I said, trust goes both ways.

You brought up that incident with your boyfriend. Just to make it clear, one branch of my family has produced three generations of police officers. All of which were decent pleasant and admiral people despite having to do a job which often brings you face to face to humanity at it's worst, even when dealing with the hellion I could be as a child. Whenever people talks shit about police and make them ALL of them everywhere as being some faceless hive mind of cruel sadists who relish every opportunity to make the rest of humanity's lives miserable through casual acts of bullying, brutality and murder it gets to me because I know first hand that such claims are a load of horseshit. Yes. It's partially a personal and an emotional bias but it is not unwarranted.

Zor

[Mr. Coffee]

Ok, anyone else picking up on the irony of a motherfucker calling himself Batman questioning the use of force or anything else of cops?

I think the psychology behind it is kind of interesting. If people watch a movie with a cop beating a suspect it seems like most people will be angry at that. When people watch Batman and he beats the hell out of people, hangs them from buildings, tortures them seems like a majority are OK with it.

You know the sight of society if fucked when one of our local LEO fucks is the responsible person.

KS, defuse this shit, bro. I looked and, well, you do it.

Now that I reread this, I just thought of something...

I'm gonna call ya bro sometimes, KS, but I was wondering what if you was a cop in the 40K universe...

Would it be Bro-Cop, Brother-Cop, Brother-Officer...

Or would you just be a good old fashioned Arbites flatfoot?

[Channel72]

Police are not to be trusted. Under any circumstance. They are trained to lie to you. They are trained to suspect you. They are paid to arrest you. They are becoming more and more militarized every day. They are above the laws they are paid to enforce "uphold". Avoid police at all costs.

That is the lesson I would pass on to any children I may have or anyone that will listen regardless of color.

With the addition of being polite and as respectful as the situation allows to this, Hav hit it on the goddamn head for dealing with cops in the US. They are not your friends, ever. Even if you called them yourself, they are not your friends, they aren't your protectors, and they most likely don;t care a fucking bit about you other than assessing you for signs of "suspicious activity". Trust them at your own peril.

They're not paid to be my friends, nor do I expect them to be. They're paid to deal with whatever shit society throws at them, like out-of-control domestic disputes, drug dealers, robberies, reckless driving, crazy coked-up assholes disrupting society with disorderly conduct, etc. That's all I expect of them.

But whatever, this thread is just a devolving into a stupid anecdote fest. So here's another: in "my experience"™, everytime I've interacted with cops, it's been routine and boring. Whenever I've needed police assistance with something, they did their jobs. Of course, I'm white and my local police force is pretty multi-racial, so your mileage may vary. But insane generalizations like "ALL cops are out to get you" are useless.

[White Haven]

Nobody sane is claiming that all cops everywhere are out to get you. What they are saying is that if a cop you are dealing with IS a corrupt shitlord, you'll only know it when it's too late to take back anything you have said or done. Accordingly, if you treat every cop with the exaggerated care and fear of a bomb squad tech, you minimize the risk to yourself if it turns out that you just rolled snakeeyes on the Police Encounter Table.

[SAMAS]

Honestly, it's worse than that.

Every time a cop gets off for killing another citizen under dubious circumstances, every time the department "closes ranks" when one of those "Bad Eggs" acts out again, every time they don't punish a cop when he pulls over somebody for being Black on a Friday, it taints both them and the whole goddamn system. You say you may be a Good Cop, but how Good can you be when you sit around and let this happen? How Good can you be when you don't speak up against those who are throwing your reputation away? How Good can you be when you help them get away with murder?

[Spekio]

Honestly, it's worse than that.

Every time a cop gets off for killing another citizen under dubious circumstances, every time the department "closes ranks" when one of those "Bad Eggs" acts out again, every time they don't punish a cop when he pulls over somebody for being Black on a Friday, it taints both them and the whole goddamn system. You say you may be a Good Cop, but how Good can you be when you sit around and let this happen? How Good can you be when you don't speak up against those who are throwing your reputation away? How Good can you be when you help them get away with murder?

My girl friend's cousin's hurband is an ex-cop. He once told me this, after witnessing torture when transporting prisoners, and merely expressing disgust with body language, he was threatened.

People fall into place really quick when you have armed men whom can manipulate investigations threaten your family. The system can outweigh personal convictions really quickly.

There is a movie in Brazil named "Tropa de Elite". It's based on a book by a former swat officer from Rio named "Elite da Tropa", who went on to study law.

He talks about his perceptions when in the force and out the force and how the system let's corruption thrive.

EDIT:

Also, Havok is completely right. I might add that the police do not care if you are white or black or yellow or purple. Are you poor? Time to make you respect his authority.

[Eulogy]

To add to what's already been said, I would just like to point out that these kinds of thugs only increase unrest and lawlessness, as the only way otherwise law-abiding people feel they can get proper justice on the corrupt swine is to take matters into their own hands. Let it fester long enough and the Blue Wall will start wondering why people are shooting holes into it "unprovoked", and said shooters take care to cover their tracks or set up a fall guy.

Does this sound like a desirable state of affairs, where the only real way to get lasting positive change in the way law enforcement operate is with a lot of lead, blood, and terror? Or would you rather have real reform, one that flushes the shitlords put of departments and restores public trust? Because if the police can't get the support of the public, how can they police?

[Alferd Packer]

Does this sound like a desirable state of affairs, where the only real way to get lasting positive change in the way law enforcement operate is with a lot of lead, blood, and terror? Or would you rather have real reform, one that flushes the shitlords put of departments and restores public trust? Because if the police can't get the support of the public, how can they police?

With violence. Seriously, it's a story as old as the idea of a professional police force. Go around, crack some skulls, and keep everyone in line. That's why this is so problematic. It's easy to police a community with thuggish tactics and harassment--to a point anyway, it works.

And at the risk of me-tooing, I'll just say that Havok's statement is completely factually correct, as far as describing police powers. That is why our Fifth Amendment protections are so important. We citizens can, at any time, simply shut up, and there's nothing (legal) that a cop can do about it.

It's kind of like "if you ignore the problem, it'll go away." Not responding to questions from a police officer prevents the escalation of a situation. Combine that with complying with any lawful commands, and there's very little an officer can do to make your life difficult, because you've given him nothing. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, because not responding to commands like "get out of your vehicle" or the like are definitely escalations, but the combination of the two (silence and compliance, let's call them), protects you and minimizes escalation. It's the best you can hope for.

So, like Havok, I reiterate my advice that I've said before: don't speak to cops under any circumstances, barring a life-threatening emergency. Doing so forces you to play a game whose rules you can't know and whose consequences for losing are too dire to risk.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Honestly, it's worse than that.

Every time a cop gets off for killing another citizen under dubious circumstances, every time the department "closes ranks" when one of those "Bad Eggs" acts out again, every time they don't punish a cop when he pulls over somebody for being Black on a Friday, it taints both them and the whole goddamn system. You say you may be a Good Cop, but how Good can you be when you sit around and let this happen? How Good can you be when you don't speak up against those who are throwing your reputation away? How Good can you be when you help them get away with murder?

What I find amusing is everyone thinks we roll around together and know the truth. The reality is most of the time we're just going off the other guys word.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Now that I reread this, I just thought of something...

I'm gonna call ya bro sometimes, KS, but I was wondering what if you was a cop in the 40K universe...

Would it be Bro-Cop, Brother-Cop, Brother-Officer...

Or would you just be a good old fashioned Arbites flatfoot?

I'm not that familiar with the 40k universe but I'll go with Bro-Cop.

Nobody sane is claiming that all cops everywhere are out to get you. What they are saying is that if a cop you are dealing with IS a corrupt shitlord, you'll only know it when it's too late to take back anything you have said or done. Accordingly, if you treat every cop with the exaggerated care and fear of a bomb squad tech, you minimize the risk to yourself if it turns out that you just rolled snakeeyes on the Police Encounter Table.

By the way, I think this is a reasonable position to hold. Not every cop is out to get you. I know cops that dislike arresting people for crimes that really just come down to them making a mistake but White Haven is correct and so is Havok to a lesser degree. The police are not your friends but we shouldn't be. Asking people to arrest their friends is a difficult prospect for most.

[Kamakazie Sith]

To add to what's already been said, I would just like to point out that these kinds of thugs only increase unrest and lawlessness, as the only way otherwise law-abiding people feel they can get proper justice on the corrupt swine is to take matters into their own hands. Let it fester long enough and the Blue Wall will start wondering why people are shooting holes into it "unprovoked", and said shooters take care to cover their tracks or set up a fall guy.

Does this sound like a desirable state of affairs, where the only real way to get lasting positive change in the way law enforcement operate is with a lot of lead, blood, and terror? Or would you rather have real reform, one that flushes the shitlords put of departments and restores public trust? Because if the police can't get the support of the public, how can they police?

Eulogy, you have a point but law abiding people don't go out and randomly murder strangers. Those are the crazies that do that shit. Law abiding people start campaigns to hold their elected officials accountable for their lack of action. That's what law abiding people do.

And yes, it is absolutely murder in every sense of the word when you kill a stranger without due process. It's every bit as wrong as the actions that these people claim to oppose.

[Simon_Jester]

Among other things because it's really easy to create a "this evil cop shot this innocent man" narrative; essentially all you have to do is start a rumor and have one or two friends of the dead man ready to testify to his good character.

The logical reaction to such an accusation really would be to stop and investigate it- but not every such accusation is automatically true. If the accusation is investigated and nothing happens, do you assume that the Blue Wall has just protected another corrupt cop? Or do you assume that nothing happened because the actual evidence indicated that the cop was not in fact corrupt?

And if people started getting into 'retaliatory' violence against policemen, they would probably start routinely engaging in wrongful killings of officers whose only offense was that some criminal made up a story to make them look like the villain.

I think the psychology behind it is kind of interesting. If people watch a movie with a cop beating a suspect it seems like most people will be angry at that. When people watch Batman and he beats the hell out of people, hangs them from buildings, tortures them seems like a majority are OK with it.

Movies tend to remove the presumption of innocence and cut straight to the question "what is it permissible to do to an evildoer?"

Dirty Harry will (in the audience's eyes) get away with shooting Scorpio in the leg because we know Scorpio's a depraved serial killer. Batman's nemeses tend to be cut from the same cloth; even if they aren't serial killers we know full well that they are career criminal masterminds.

We rarely see Batman gratuitously beating or torturing people who we don't know have done something to "deserve it," and who we already know are unlikely to have redeeming moral qualities. Therefore, we feel more comfortable with it.

[Dominus Atheos]

Who are stupid fucking retards who actually live in this country and still believe cops are their friends and are there to help them?

Maybe in the past the police were there to help people, but not any more. Nowadays they are all about punishing people. No one is saying to never call the police, but make sure to only ever call them if there is someone (else) to punish. If the police arrive and there is no one around to punish, they may end up punishing you, as these two people found out:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=160673

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=154545

[Eulogy]

Kamikaze and Simon, yeah people deciding to go and kill cops isn't a good thing. But that's what I'm getting at. You don't want your citizens to start thinking that their police deserve bad things coming their way.

[Thanas]

Who are stupid fucking retards who actually live in this country and still believe cops are their friends and are there to help them?

Maybe in the past the police were there to help people, but not any more. Nowadays they are all about punishing people. No one is saying to never call the police, but make sure to only ever call them if there is someone (else) to punish. If the police arrive and there is no one around to punish, they may end up punishing you, as these two people found out:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=160673

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=154545

This is too extreme a viewpoint and I cannot agree with it. Under your scenario, it would be trivially easy to rob you and not fear any punishment because you wouldn't call the cops.

Cops are necessary for a society to function.

[Dominus Atheos]

What? In a robbery, there is clearly someone besides the victim to punish.