Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoots hi

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Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoots hi

Post by mr friendly guy »

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... story.html

Saw this on TYT. The video is disturbing as you see the gun recoiling in his direction. The date for the article is 27th August

An instructor at a shooting range in Arizona died Monday after a 9-year-old girl accidentally shot him in the head with an Uzi he was showing her how to use, the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office said.

Charles Vacca, 39, of Lake Havasu City was shot Monday morning, airlifted to a medical center in Las Vegas and pronounced dead shortly before 9 p.m., the sheriff’s office said.

Arizona authorities investigate death of instructor who was showing girl how to fire Uzi
Arizona authorities are investigating what went wrong when a 9-year-old girl accidentally killed a firing range instructor with an Uzi submachine gun, which has generated debate about kids using guns.
Vacca was working at the Bullets and Burgers outdoor range in White Hills, about 60 miles southeast of Las Vegas, when the accident occurred. The girl and her parents were at the range while on vacation, a sheriff’s spokeswoman told the Los Angeles Times.

He was standing next to the girl, instructing her how to use the Uzi, when she pulled the gun’s trigger and the recoil sent the weapon over her head, causing him to be shot, the sheriff’s office said.

“This is a rarity for something like this to happen,” the spokeswoman said.

Asked why a 9-year-old had access to an Uzi, range operator Sam Scarmardo told local television station KTNV that Bullets and Burgers allows children 8 and older to shoot firearms. “We instruct kids as young as 5 in .22 rifles,” he said. “They’re under the supervision of their parents and of our professional range masters.”

People who answered the phone at the range refused to speak to the Los Angeles Times about the matter, and Scarmando did not return The Times’ calls Tuesday or Wednesday.

David Prince, who owns Eagle Gun Range in Lewisville, Texas, also allows kids as young as 8 to shoot at his range, which even offers a children’s party package. He told The Times that he was motivated to start his business because he wanted to create a place where children can learn to shoot safely.

When children or first-timers try guns that might pose recoil problems, Prince said, his range tethers the weapon to the shooting bench. The shooters “still have full motion in the target area, but the gun can’t rise,” he said. “That keeps the gun from being turned in a dangerous angle.”

The Texas range also teaches first-timers how to use guns while they are unloaded, then lets them try the weapon with only one bullet inside, Prince said.

A video released by the sheriff’s office Tuesday afternoon shows nearly half a minute of the shooting lesson at Burgers and Bullets.

Vacca, dressed in a dark shirt and camouflage pants, speaks to a slim girl with earmuffs, braided hair and bright pink shorts.

“We have to keep that held in,” he says, showing her the Uzi in his hands. “Otherwise the gun won’t fire, OK?”

He gives her the weapon and helps her adjust her arms and her stance — “just like that” — and, at his instruction, the girl shoots once at a target. Her shot lands slightly to its left.

“All right!” Vacca cheers.

As he gives further directions, a quick sequence of shots can be heard, and the gun begins tilting up. The video clip ends before he is struck.

In 2008, 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj died in a similar accident at a gun expo in Massachusetts. The boy was firing an Uzi at a pumpkin when the recoil caused him to lose control of the weapon, and he fatally shot himself in the head.
I am no gun expert, but why is a 9 year old allowed to use a submachine gun?
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Vendetta »

Presumably because they hadn't had serious accidents doing so before at that range. I suspect it is a policy which will be reexamined.

Turns out range safety is important, especially with children, and even short lapses in attention can have serious consequences.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Channel72 »

I feel sorry for the girl - she is likely traumatized over this.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by cosmicalstorm »

She learned a valuable gun-related lesson if you wanna take a cold blooded look at this. Why in the world do children need high powered weapons? Let them start with blank shots at the very least. Crazy gun-lovers.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Irbis »

mr friendly guy wrote:I am no gun expert, but why is a 9 year old allowed to use a submachine gun?
They just go to logical conclusion of NRA ideology and copy best practices of other free gun owning parts of the world. Why are you against fighting stopping the tyranny of EVIL GUVMINT, comrade? Do you see any age restrictions in 2nd amendment? Thought so.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by LaCroix »

Blanks don't work too well with most guns, you have to convert them for it. A simple safety tether would have be enough, but well, the safety instructor didn't think of this. Still, the girl is nine, and should never be allowed to handle an automatic gun like that.
Even if it were a single shot this is a 9mm weapon - the recoil would be already hard to deal for a kid that age, and even grown up people have hurt themselves when underestimating/being surprised by recoil.

Hope she gets over it soon. Some kids bounce back quickly, hope she's the type.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Geminon »

cosmicalstorm wrote:She learned a valuable gun-related lesson if you wanna take a cold blooded look at this. Why in the world do children need high powered weapons? Let them start with blank shots at the very least. Crazy gun-lovers.
The Uzi is hardly what I'd call high powered. It fires a 9mm pistol round. 9x19mm, the same as any Western 9mm pistol if you want to get specific. That said, I don't think it's a good choice to start a 9-year old with. What the Uzi has is a combination of features that produce very high felt recoil. Something in .22LR like a Ruger Mini 10-22, would be much better. With something like that, recoil is almost non-existent to start with and the rifle is heavy enough to absorb it and leave basically no felt recoil. In addition, it is a semi automatic. One trigger pull, one shot. No run away automatic fire with a physically incapable child trying to control it.

I think this incident is what happens when a minimum of four adults failed to make appropriate safety decisions. The range owner failed to evaluate the potentials when he made his policy allowing a 9-year old to use such a weapon, her parents for choosing to do so and the range officer for failing to maintain control of the weapon when the child was using it in fully automatic mode, or allowing her to use it in full auto in the first place.

I believe in the responsible use and ownership of firearms. I have a two-year old son and plan on teaching him to shoot in a responsible manner. My wife is fine with it as long as I wait until he is around 12, capable of appropriate physical and mental control and the firearms are not stored in the house. I think these are acceptable limits. They actually line up pretty well with my learning to shoot. I may have been a little younger, and the firearms were stored in the house - it was my grandfathers rural residence on 100 acres of what had been farmland when he grew up there. The firearms were always out of my reach, and stored separately from the ammunition.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Borgholio »

The problem was two-fold. First, he was standing exactly where the gun would be pointed if it got away from the kid. When you are right-handed, the recoil tends to push the gun up and to the left. He should have been standing directly behind or to the right of her. Second, she handled it quite well when it was in burst mode - only a few shots per trigger pull. Looking closely at the video, he switched it to full automatic and that's when it got away from her. So two stupid mistakes resulted in this guy's death. Tragic, but fully preventable.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Mr Bean »

Borgholio wrote:The problem was two-fold. First, he was standing exactly where the gun would be pointed if it got away from the kid. When you are right-handed, the recoil tends to push the gun up and to the left. He should have been standing directly behind or to the right of her. Second, she handled it quite well when it was in burst mode - only a few shots per trigger pull. Looking closely at the video, he switched it to full automatic and that's when it got away from her. So two stupid mistakes resulted in this guy's death. Tragic, but fully preventable.
Exactly, also why are you giving a nine year old an Uzi? Nine is the time for single shot rifles as they are the best teachers of gun safety. Had she done well on the Uzi was lesson 2 going to be belt fed machine guns?

Seriously there's a long established tradition if you want to start gun safety young. You start with something small, BB guns are a classic example of this then move onto 22 rifles then depending on age and build you can move them onto pistols and eventually shotguns. The automatics should wait until they are at least 16. I known some places in the world are big fans of kids with AK's but those tend to be traditionally shitty places to live.

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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I was thinking that the powerful auto of an Uzi was a "power" but then I know next to nothing about guns so I retract the "high power" part. But the question stands, a 9 year old does not need to handle automatic weapons that were created for outright war and guerrilla fighting. If you really feel the need then start them out with airpower and blank shots.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Borgholio »

The benefit of the Uzi is that it can spray a lot of bullets in a very short time. Useful for close-combat. The recoil is not as bad as a larger caliber rifle since the rounds individually aren't all that powerful...but when you can spray 600 rounds per minute, it adds up quite a bit. If I had a 9 year old, they *might* be able to handle the weapon if trained really well (which this one obviously wasn't). But I would certainly feel more comfortable training them on a bolt-action rifle. Need to learn how to handle recoil and aim the damn thing before you give them a fucking machine gun. :(
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Borgholio wrote:The problem was two-fold. First, he was standing exactly where the gun would be pointed if it got away from the kid. When you are right-handed, the recoil tends to push the gun up and to the left. He should have been standing directly behind or to the right of her. Second, she handled it quite well when it was in burst mode - only a few shots per trigger pull. Looking closely at the video, he switched it to full automatic and that's when it got away from her. So two stupid mistakes resulted in this guy's death. Tragic, but fully preventable.
There was only one problem here, and that is someone gave a small child a machine-pistol. Only in 'MURICA would someone think that this was a brilliant idea. Even in the heart of Africa, child soldiers of whatever civil war of the week are started with rifles. </sarcasm>

The girl's parents ought to have Child Protective Services come down hot-and-heavy on their asses, because I have to question the parenting aptitude of anyone who'd think it'd be awesome for their little girl to bust out an Uzi. Also, they ought to throw the entire fucking book at the clowns who run a shooting range like that. Both of which totally won't happen because I guess this the price 'MURICA is willing to pay to kick it 18th century style.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Lagmonster »

Are there no age requirements for shooting guns? I mean, everyone knows you can't fuck until you're 16 and drink until you're 21, but how old do you have to be before you can go out into the woods and vapourize Bambi?
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Borgholio »

Lagmonster wrote:Are there no age requirements for shooting guns? I mean, everyone knows you can't fuck until you're 16 and drink until you're 21, but how old do you have to be before you can go out into the woods and vapourize Bambi?
There are age requirements for purchasing a firearm but not for using one. At least none that I ever knew of.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Lagmonster wrote:Are there no age requirements for shooting guns? I mean, everyone knows you can't fuck until you're 16 and drink until you're 21, but how old do you have to be before you can go out into the woods and vapourize Bambi?
Not in 'MURICA there isn't. If their kid can hold it steady enough, they can shoot any gun their parents can legally obtain (because the child usually cannot purchase long guns until their 18th birthday, and handguns until their 21st.)

Like I said, it's the 18th century mentality at work. Back in those days, on the frontier, a boy could be expected to help provide for his family by shooting small game for the pot.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Mr Bean »

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Like I said, it's the 18th century mentality at work. Back in those days, on the frontier, a boy could be expected to help provide for his family by shooting small game for the pot.
As opposed to today when my neighbor Sam shot squirrels with his 22 to provide small game for the Pot. Hunting season was only so many months out of the year, to keep food costs down they fished the rivers and hunted varmints which were all cooked up and his mother made taste great. I still remember him trading pocket change for his father's home made venison jerky to the other kids at school.

We still live in that world GMT, that's why I knew how to handle rifles for a young age. My own mother was the only person in the neighborhood (Read 7 families spread over a three mile radius) who did not have a place in the home to prepare freshly caught game. And this was North Carolina not Alaska. In America there are large sections of the country who are quite prepared to feed themselves just of what's in the local area.

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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Mr Bean wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Like I said, it's the 18th century mentality at work. Back in those days, on the frontier, a boy could be expected to help provide for his family by shooting small game for the pot.
As opposed to today when my neighbor Sam shot squirrels with his 22 to provide small game for the Pot. Hunting season was only so many months out of the year, to keep food costs down they fished the rivers and hunted varmints which were all cooked up and his mother made taste great. I still remember him trading pocket change for his father's home made venison jerky to the other kids at school.

We still live in that world GMT, that's why I knew how to handle rifles for a young age. My own mother was the only person in the neighborhood (Read 7 families spread over a three mile radius) who did not have a place in the home to prepare freshly caught game. And this was North Carolina not Alaska. In America there are large sections of the country who are quite prepared to feed themselves just of what's in the local area.
Well, yes. It is, however one thing for a child to be in the back country with a rimfire rifle, a rifle in one of the light-recoiling centerfire calibers, or a .410 bore shotgun suited for the collection of small game. It is another thing entirely to give that same child an Uzi, or even the kind of semi-automatic pistol commonly used in military and law-enforcement.

I take back what I said earlier. They would've been far more responsible in the 18th and 19th centuries, simply because the gun was an everyday tool needed for survival, and was thusly accorded with the appropriate respect. This story is just a tragic example of stupidity at work in the 21st century.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

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Mr Bean wrote:Exactly, also why are you giving a nine year old an Uzi? Nine is the time for single shot rifles as they are the best teachers of gun safety. Had she done well on the Uzi was lesson 2 going to be belt fed machine guns?
A belt fed machine gun would probably be safer. Not much chance of recoil getting away from you with a gun weighed down by twenty kilos of tripod.
Lagmonster wrote:Are there no age requirements for shooting guns? I mean, everyone knows you can't fuck until you're 16 and drink until you're 21, but how old do you have to be before you can go out into the woods and vapourize Bambi?
There's no age requirement to drive a car either. A driver's license is only required to drive on public roads - if some private entity gives you permission to drive around on their property, that's all that you need. As to your other two examples, it is factually incorrect that you're not allowed to have sex until you're sixteen, as evidenced by the existence of Romeo & Juliet laws - although there are still some stupid laws and stupider prosecutors out there - and how the US handles underage drinking is pretty damn stupid anyway.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by PREDATOR490 »

Horrible as it may be: I cannot say I really give a shit about someone getting killed through their own negligence.
I feel sad for the kid who has now got to live with being responsible for blowing someone's head off because the adults failed to apply proper safety systems but that is the extent of my concern.

One can only hope this will at least have the positive effects of:
A) Some folks will now understand guns should be given the proper respect
B) The people that run the range will reconsider their approach to gun safety

Getting into a larger debate about gun ownership / usage is just pointless when it comes to America from what I have seen.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Borgholio »

Getting into a larger debate about gun ownership / usage is just pointless when it comes to America from what I have seen.
Depends on who you debate with. I personally support various gun restrictions, both civilian and police. There's no need for assault rifles in either case except for very special circumstances, for example.

However if you ask some of the idiots at the Bundy Ranch, they'll probably argue that the 2nd Amendment should guarantee them the right to own and operate their own field artillery just in case the evil government decides to attack their two-bit corral with an armored division as punishment for having freedom. :-/
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Lord Relvenous »

All this makes me think of is the other young kid that was given an Uzi and shot himself due to extreme recoil. At least in this case, it was the negligent range official and not the kid who paid the price for the negligence of adults. I feel horrible knowing that the little girl will blame herself for this, and that she has to live with the memory.

Seriously, fuck her parents and fuck the range instructor. She didn't get hit by a bullet, but her life is still completely changed.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Tony Stark »

The media view I have seen on this here in Britain has been pretty much "This is why we have restrictions on guns".
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by LadyTevar »

The Uzi isn't a powerful gun, but for a girl who may never have held a gun in her life, that was simply too much for her. On an Uzi, the recoil pivot-point is the grip. Even with a buttstock on it, there is not enough balance-weight to prevent the barrel from rotating up and back from recoil.

So, all we need for this accident to happen is a girl with a weak grip, and a trainer who did not have a hold on the weapon just in case.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Batman »

I guess it depends on what you consider 'powerful' for a gun. Yes, compared to 7.62x51 NATO or .50BMG 9x19mm Para isn't particularly impressive. Compared to .22 or a BB gun (you know, the kind of gun I'd consider appropriate for a kid that age) it's pretty damned powerful, especially using full auto.
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Re: Firing range instructor dies after 9-year-old girl shoot

Post by Beowulf »

This is somewhere close to the same stupidity as giving a 9 year old a .500 S&W revolver to shoot. It's not really the 9 year old's fault. It's the instructor's fault for thinking a 9 year old could manage it. And probably also the parents' fault for thinking a micro-Uzi is a good choice as well. A belt-fed machinegun on a bipod/tripod would have been a much better choice.
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