Malaysia Airlines 777 Crash (Europe)

[AniThyng]

Now that's interesting.

The only other "Thompson" university I can find is an online university here, in Australia. Not actually located in a place called Thompson.

Yeah I actually google'd that when the video came out but didn't think much of it, you'd think also if they wanted to fake it either way they have a problem, since a fake university would be outed as a fake university, and a real one would be outed when they revealed they have no missing indonesian students.

[Grumman]

Now that's interesting.

The only other "Thompson" university I can find is an online university here, in Australia. Not actually located in a place called Thompson.

There's also a "David and Mary Thomson Collegiate" which, if this wasn't an outright fabrication, could have been mistaken for the American use of the term "College".

[AniThyng]

And here I thought "shooting down airliners is a reprehensible crime" was an uncontroversial position.

Eh, you'd still need to be more specific than that. If the airliner has been hijacked for use as an improvised cruise missile against a densely populated building, to use a not-at-all-random example, shooting it down is probably the right decision.

Why not go all the way and admit that it matters if

a) the plane had enough westerners on board

b) the shooters were from a western military

But well, at least with the IRan incident it was really clear who did it from the get go, even if the why was not so clear.

[K. A. Pital]

Now that's interesting.

The only other "Thompson" university I can find is an online university here, in Australia. Not actually located in a place called Thompson.

Yeah I actually google'd that when the video came out but didn't think much of it, you'd think also if they wanted to fake it either way they have a problem, since a fake university would be outed as a fake university, and a real one would be outed when they revealed they have no missing indonesian students.

According to one investigation of Indonesian victims, none were students

http://kashin.guru/2014/07/19/student/

[Vympel]

Yeah I actually google'd that when the video came out but didn't think much of it, you'd think also if they wanted to fake it either way they have a problem, since a fake university would be outed as a fake university, and a real one would be outed when they revealed they have no missing indonesian students.

No one needs a lie to last forever, if that's what it is. As long as it sells the story you want to tell for long enough for it to become conventional wisdom, very few people will know / care / be in a positon to do something about it when the truth comes out. By then you would've gotten what you wanted.

[Broomstick]

And here I thought "shooting down airliners is a reprehensible crime" was an uncontroversial position.

To my mind, it's the distinction between manslaughter/accidental homicide and premeditated murder. None of the above are good, arguably they are all reprehensible, but to my mind ethically there's a large gulf between "oops, sorry, made a horrific mistake" (which is tragic and terrible enough) and "bwa-ha-HA! Kill them! Kill them!".

[The Romulan Republic]

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/dutch-sending-unarmed-police-ukraine-crash-site-24701402

The Netherlands is sending 40 unarmed military police to eastern Ukraine as part of a ramped-up effort to find the last victims of the downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 still at the wreckage site, Prime Minister Mark Rutte announced late Thursday.

He also is sending forensic investigators to the site to try to piece together exactly what happened when the plane was shot down a week ago, killing all 298 people on board.

U.S. officials say the Boeing 777 was probably shot down by a missile from territory held by pro-Russian rebels, likely by accident.

Rutte said the military police will help the investigators.

"They are really looking like the forensic experts," he said. "They will be extra hands and eyes to look for remaining remains and personal belongings."

PHOTO: Honor guards take part in a ceremony with coffins of some of the victims of Malaysia Airlines MH17, before they are loaded onto a transport plane heading to the Netherlands at Ukraines Kharkiv International Airport on July 23, 2014.
Sad Journey Home for Victims of Malaysia Airlines Tragedy
His comments Thursday came hours after two military planes carrying 74 coffins landed at a military base in the Netherlands. A day earlier, the two military transport planes — one Dutch and one Australian — brought back the first 40 coffins and more flights were planned for Friday.

Thousands of people have turned out to watch the convoys of hearses drive from the Eindhoven Air Base to a military barracks in the central city of Hilversum, where the remains will be identified by an international team of experts.

The Netherlands has been given the lead in the investigation into what exactly happened to Flight 17 and is taking charge of efforts to identify the dead. This nation of 17 million was the hardest hit, with 194 of its citizens on board the plane.

Rutte said he would also be sending more forensic experts to the scene in the coming days to speed up the investigation that was hampered in its early stages because it was considered too dangerous to work there.

He acknowledged that the region of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists remains a risky place to work.

"For tomorrow, we expect our people to be able to conduct the work necessary," he said. "But we will constantly reassess the situation."

He added, "we are looking into ways to make the crash site safer."

That could include an international police mission.

Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop traveled Thursday to Kiev with her Dutch counterpart Frans Timmermans to seek an agreement with the Ukraine government that will allow international police to secure the crash site, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said.

"We are ready to deploy Australian police to Ukraine to help secure the site as part of an international team under United Nations authority," Abbott told reporters.

Australia has sent 50 police to London in anticipation of deploying them to Ukraine, Abbot said.

Rutte said he would not rest until he has brought the perpetrators to justice.

"I'm extremely motivated to find out what happened, who did this," he said, "And as soon as we know, I will do everything in my power — even if it is the last thing I do in this job — to make sure we bring them to justice."

What happens if these guys from a NATO country get fired on by Russians or rebels either intentionally or by accident? It seems like we're one mistake away from World War III.

[Purple]

What happens if these guys from a NATO country get fired on by Russians or rebels either intentionally or by accident? It seems like we're one mistake away from World War III.

Nothing happens. Seriously. There is a difference between someone shooting a rifle off at a bunch of unarmed envoys, even if they are soldiers and Putin driving tanks down the streets of West Berlin. The actual cold war which actually was dangerous had instances of one site shooting down the other sides aircraft and not only killing but capturing personnel and parading them publicly and we did not get a war.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Dutch are angry as it is. I won't be surprised if the Dutch send troops or ask for NATO troops to guard the site of the crash if this group is attacked. And I can't imagine Putin responding well to that.

I can see this escalating badly.

[Simon_Jester]

Frankly, I don't think Putin is going to crank up military tensions over this- if he cared that much about the eastern Ukraine he'd have sent in troops already.

Under the circumstances I think a show of cooperation is more likely, because Russia does NOT want to get tagged with responsibility for this event.

[Purple]

The Dutch are angry as it is. I won't be surprised if the Dutch send troops or ask for NATO troops to guard the site of the crash if this group is attacked. And I can't imagine Putin responding well to that.

I can see this escalating badly.

At the height of the cold war when an american spy plane was shot down and the pilot paraded, tried and sent to prison for espionage by the Soviet Union the missiles did not fly. That's Soviet AA systems attacking an american aircraft over Soviet territory. And neither side wanted a war.

Why do you think that a bunch of vaguely pro Russian rebels shooting at some unimportant soldiers now, at a massively safer point comparatively would case such a war? Just how suicidal do you think Putin or OTAN are?

[Thanas]

Russia is not insane, they won't fire at the Dutch.

If the separatists do it then Russia will drop them. Not even Russia wants that much negative publicity.

[Purple]

Russia is not insane, they won't fire at the Dutch.

If the separatists do it then Russia will drop them. Not even Russia wants that much negative publicity.

Either drop them or have them deliver a few scape goats to sacrifice on the altar of world peace.

[AniThyng]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5437 ... ost8578950

So according to this source http://ria.ru/world/20140725/1017459906 ... z38SGUBlDP which of course needs salt the Ukrainians were training Buk crew with su25 and somehow launch a live missile that went right for the 777.

[K. A. Pital]

If true, epic fuckup... And an even more epic fuckup containing the information.

[Mange]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5437 ... ost8578950

So according to this source http://ria.ru/world/20140725/1017459906 ... z38SGUBlDP which of course needs salt the Ukrainians were training Buk crew with su25 and somehow launch a live missile that went right for the 777.

I wouldn't trust a word coming from Russian news media and there's not a word elsewhere. There's talk that the "SU-25" the Russians say they saw on radar actually was debris from flight MH17 (such as this site which isn't a beacon of objectivity). But if true, then I think Stas has described the situation well.

[LaCroix]

Is there anything new regarding the case? I've tried to find something, but since the black boxes were handed over about 2 weeks ago, I found no news apart from "they haven't been manipulated". Also, there was no data relase or any response towards the the radar data release and allegations by the Russians. Is this case suddenly no issue, anymore, or what?

[K. A. Pital]

Is there anything new regarding the case? I've tried to find something, but since the black boxes were handed over about 2 weeks ago, I found no news apart from "they haven't been manipulated". Also, there was no data relase or any response towards the the radar data release and allegations by the Russians. Is this case suddenly no issue, anymore, or what?

First stage of investigation revealed nothing so far (or nothing that was worthy of relaying to the public). There were non-prominent reports in some pro-Russian media that the investigators discovered machine gun marks on some fuselage parts, but generally, somehow everyone is quiet after a flurry of mutual accusations.

[Mange]

Is there anything new regarding the case? I've tried to find something, but since the black boxes were handed over about 2 weeks ago, I found no news apart from "they haven't been manipulated". Also, there was no data relase or any response towards the the radar data release and allegations by the Russians. Is this case suddenly no issue, anymore, or what?

First stage of investigation revealed nothing so far (or nothing that was worthy of relaying to the public). There were non-prominent reports in some pro-Russian media that the investigators discovered machine gun marks on some fuselage parts, but generally, somehow everyone is quiet after a flurry of mutual accusations.

The "machine gun" claim has been exaggerated by the pro-Russian media. What have been found are holes in the cockpit and fuselage which is consistent with a surface-to-air missile exploding in close proximity to the aircraft.

ETA: Malay Mail Online

[K. A. Pital]

There is no official statement in the link you provided. Instead, some analysts looking a NYT photos think that shrapnel might have produced the marks - very much possible, but that statement should come from the investigation team and not from the interested third parties (if you have a link to that, please do provide one).

However, the team of international investigators with the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) are uncertain if the missile used was fired from the ground as US military experts have previously suggested, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported.

Where are the actual quotes from the team? Why is this said in such a roundabout way?

[Mange]

There is no official statement in the link you provided. Instead, some analysts looking a NYT photos think that shrapnel might have produced the marks - very much possible, but that statement should come from the investigation team and not from the interested third parties (if you have a link to that, please do provide one).

The link was to illustrate how "looks like machine gunned" became "machine gunned" (and the machine gun thing has cropped up on all sorts of conspiracy theory sites).

However, the team of international investigators with the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) are uncertain if the missile used was fired from the ground as US military experts have previously suggested, the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reported.

Where are the actual quotes from the team? Why is this said in such a roundabout way?

It most likely refers to this article in WSJ (I don't read or subscribe to WSJ). OSCE also has a very limited mandate: They are to report on the security situation on the site, report on the repatriation of the victims and the securing of evidence.

[AniThyng]

If anyone still cares, the preliminary report is out and surprisingly enough tells us nothing much we didn't already know.

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/ph ... actief.pdf

Key takeaway : The flight was most likely brought down by "high energy objects from outside". So they're not *saying* it was a missile, but it was a missile.

Also, it seems Russian ATC was just as surprised as Ukraine ATC, if the transcript is accurate.

[LaCroix]

I'm a bit puzzled that the impacts were coming from ahead and above the cockpit. Is that a feature or is the hit location for such a missile a random thing?

[Thanas]

It is perfectly consistent with western claims that the rebels from the east shot the missile at the airplane, meaning it would come from the front (and then detonate ahead/above due to proximity fuses). It was flying into and not out of rebel territory after all.

[K. A. Pital]

As far as I heard the theory was a detonation in the lower half of the frontal hemisphere. Damage from above is impossible unless the warhead detonated above the target. Could that happen?