General Police Abuse Thread

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2017-09-01 04:24pm

Flagg wrote:
2017-09-01 04:19pm
Doesn't HIPPA come into play here? If so that nurse would have committed a federal offense. This cop needs to be thrown in a cell for 20 years like any other fucking kidnapper and the shitweasels recorded talking about giving that hospital all of the "transients" should lose their jobs and have their license to practice that job permanently revoked.

But at least he didn't shoot her.
Yeeaaaah. Maybe not Kidnapping (because the legal definition is not met in Utah) but certainly Unlawful Detention.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-01 04:27pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-01 12:21pm
White Haven wrote:
2017-09-01 11:05am
I don't even know where to start with this one. The unconscious man wasn't even a suspect, he was the victim of a car crash caused by the Utah Highway Patrol in the first place.
The man fleeing from UHP caused the crash. UHP was after him because he was already driving erratically and people called in about him. UHP may have contributed but don't absolve that guy of his responsibility. He absolutely caused the crash.

Minutes before the crash police dispatch operators issued an “attempt to locate” for Torres’ vehicle after another motorist called 911, stating the truck was driving recklessly. The witness claimed the black Chevy Silverado was swerving all over the road near the American West Heritage Center. They also said Torres was seen throwing a beer can out the window.
Cache County is investigating this. The unconscious man was flown up the the University of Utah which is why they contacted SLCPD and requested one of the blood draw technicians be sent out there to collect his blood. Why Cache County felt they needed his blood is unknown at this time.
They wanted to check if the badly burned man who had to be placed into a medically induced coma for an accident he was not in any way at fault for had illicit substances in his blood. And I know exactly why: They were hoping he did, otherwise the UHP will be paying for all of his medical treatment along with a hefty sum for pain and suffering, lost wages, and possibly punitive damages.
Last edited by Flagg on 2017-09-01 04:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-01 04:29pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
2017-09-01 04:24pm
Flagg wrote:
2017-09-01 04:19pm
Doesn't HIPPA come into play here? If so that nurse would have committed a federal offense. This cop needs to be thrown in a cell for 20 years like any other fucking kidnapper and the shitweasels recorded talking about giving that hospital all of the "transients" should lose their jobs and have their license to practice that job permanently revoked.

But at least he didn't shoot her.
Yeeaaaah. Maybe not Kidnapping (because the legal definition is not met in Utah) but certainly Unlawful Detention.
Whatever works. I'm in no doubt they stuck in some nice provisions in state law to make sure a cop effectively kidnapping someone by dragging them away and placing them in a vehicle against their will when they have committed no crime whatsoever would be kidnapping for anyone else. But I digress.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle » 2017-09-01 04:47pm

Flagg wrote:
2017-09-01 04:29pm
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
2017-09-01 04:24pm
Flagg wrote:
2017-09-01 04:19pm
Doesn't HIPPA come into play here? If so that nurse would have committed a federal offense. This cop needs to be thrown in a cell for 20 years like any other fucking kidnapper and the shitweasels recorded talking about giving that hospital all of the "transients" should lose their jobs and have their license to practice that job permanently revoked.

But at least he didn't shoot her.
Yeeaaaah. Maybe not Kidnapping (because the legal definition is not met in Utah) but certainly Unlawful Detention.
Whatever works. I'm in no doubt they stuck in some nice provisions in state law to make sure a cop effectively kidnapping someone by dragging them away and placing them in a vehicle against their will when they have committed no crime whatsoever would be kidnapping for anyone else. But I digress.
Nope. Just checked. There is often a sort of qualified immunity, but that requires that the officer be acting correctly. For instance, police officers can speed on highways to either catch someone, or make it to a crime scene in time etc etc.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-01 04:51pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
2017-09-01 04:47pm
Flagg wrote:
2017-09-01 04:29pm
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
2017-09-01 04:24pm


Yeeaaaah. Maybe not Kidnapping (because the legal definition is not met in Utah) but certainly Unlawful Detention.
Whatever works. I'm in no doubt they stuck in some nice provisions in state law to make sure a cop effectively kidnapping someone by dragging them away and placing them in a vehicle against their will when they have committed no crime whatsoever would be kidnapping for anyone else. But I digress.
Nope. Just checked. There is often a sort of qualified immunity, but that requires that the officer be acting correctly. For instance, police officers can speed on highways to either catch someone, or make it to a crime scene in time etc etc.
Yeah, know all about it and that's what it should actually be used for. There needs to be an exception when an officer is in flagrant abuse of their (assumed) power. Like here. But what should be and what are, rarely meet in the "justice" system.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-09-01 05:04pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-01 04:01pm
Real quick while I am still wallowing in the insanity of insomnia. I actually meant to talk about what contempt of cop means among police.

Unfortunately I chose to post while very tired and mixed in my admiration for the nurse along with some brief talk about contempt of cop and I mentioned how she didn't have any contempt. I was attempting to point out that her calm and collected actions dont fit what we typically see in contempt of cop situations such as calling the officer a pig, etc. The poor way I typed that out caused some considerable confusion. I apologize.

What I meant to say is that contempt of cop in law enforcement circles is used to describe negative behavior on part of the officer in reaction to preceived disrespect.
Right.

The key distinction is between real aggression and provocation (like screaming and cursing out the officer)... And just plain not doing what the cop says.

Police have a right to expect compliance only insofar as compliance is lawful and proper. So when a police officer does something like unjustly arrest someone who disobeyed them in a lawful manner because they gave an illegal command... Sneering at the idea of someone being dragged away for "contempt of cop" is appropriate.

That said, it's good to know there's at least some similarity between the term as used by the police and as used by Flagg.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-01 05:09pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-01 04:01pm
Real quick while I am still wallowing in the insanity of insomnia. I actually meant to talk about what contempt of cop means among police.

Unfortunately I chose to post while very tired and mixed in my admiration for the nurse along with some brief talk about contempt of cop and I mentioned how she didn't have any contempt. I was attempting to point out that her calm and collected actions dont fit what we typically see in contempt of cop situations such as calling the officer a pig, etc. The poor way I typed that out caused some considerable confusion. I apologize.

What I meant to say is that contempt of cop in law enforcement circles is used to describe negative behavior on part of the officer in reaction to preceived disrespect.
For the record, I'm always respectful to police. The only time I wouldn't be is if they try to violate my civil rights. If they are just a rude dipshit I laugh it off.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-01 11:21pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2017-09-01 05:04pm
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-01 04:01pm
Real quick while I am still wallowing in the insanity of insomnia. I actually meant to talk about what contempt of cop means among police.

Unfortunately I chose to post while very tired and mixed in my admiration for the nurse along with some brief talk about contempt of cop and I mentioned how she didn't have any contempt. I was attempting to point out that her calm and collected actions dont fit what we typically see in contempt of cop situations such as calling the officer a pig, etc. The poor way I typed that out caused some considerable confusion. I apologize.

What I meant to say is that contempt of cop in law enforcement circles is used to describe negative behavior on part of the officer in reaction to preceived disrespect.
Right.

The key distinction is between real aggression and provocation (like screaming and cursing out the officer)... And just plain not doing what the cop says.

Police have a right to expect compliance only insofar as compliance is lawful and proper. So when a police officer does something like unjustly arrest someone who disobeyed them in a lawful manner because they gave an illegal command... Sneering at the idea of someone being dragged away for "contempt of cop" is appropriate.

That said, it's good to know there's at least some similarity between the term as used by the police and as used by Flagg.
I've never used the term to my recollection. I mean I do have contempt for cops in general, meaning that I have a very strong problem with the majority of cops who do their jobs to the best of their ability (even though they care more about going home to their fat wives and ugly stupid kids :P more than what they swear to do, namely "protect and serve" others besides themselves and fellow cops) yet form a blue wall of obstructing justice when a corrupt asshole blows some innocent person's head off. But it's more of an issue of "the system" allowing such behavior when I have little doubt that those same cops would fulfill their obligations to the community or quit and flip burgers if they were held to the oath they swore to uphold as they should be.

But aside from one situation when I was 10 or 11 I've had pretty good experiences with individual police.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by mr friendly guy » 2017-09-02 02:02am

This a silly question, but if that police wanted the nurse out the way because she wouldn't take a blood sample, how is getting her out the way going to help him achieve that goal? Is he going to take the blood himself? :lol: This seems like he lost his temper and hopefully he will lose his job and the internet would mock the shit out of him.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by JLTucker » 2017-09-02 12:24pm

mr friendly guy wrote:
2017-09-02 02:02am
This a silly question, but if that police wanted the nurse out the way because she wouldn't take a blood sample, how is getting her out the way going to help him achieve that goal? Is he going to take the blood himself? :lol: This seems like he lost his temper and hopefully he will lose his job and the internet would mock the shit out of him.
he was kicked out of the phlebotomy program that force has, iirc. So he wouldn't know how.

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-02 01:08pm

JLTucker wrote:
2017-09-02 12:24pm

he was kicked out of the phlebotomy program that force has, iirc. So he wouldn't know how.
He was kicked out after this incident. Prior to this incident he was a certified phlebotomist and has been for some time.

Anyway, so I've come across further information that clarified the 2016 SCOTUS decision. Before I get into this I want to say that even if the blood draw was totally legal the arrest of the nurse was wrong. She was simply following the policies of her employer and was not intentionally obstructing an investigation.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentar ... mplicated/

Basically, the 2016 Birchfield vs. North Dakota made it unconstitutional for police to obtain a blood sample without a warrant from a person that is voicing their refusal. It did not effect implied consent for unconscious individuals which means a warrant is not required when obtaining a blood sample from an unconscious person when DUI is reasonably suspected. Utah law requires that police must have reasonable suspicion of violating Utah DUI law before implied consent can be used and in this case they did not have it.

Doesn't really change anything but is relevant in regards to the discussion.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by JLTucker » 2017-09-02 01:29pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-02 01:08pm
JLTucker wrote:
2017-09-02 12:24pm

he was kicked out of the phlebotomy program that force has, iirc. So he wouldn't know how.
He was kicked out after this incident. Prior to this incident he was a certified phlebotomist and has been for some time.
Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2017-09-03 12:15pm

That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-03 02:00pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 12:15pm
That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
Man. Your post left me with a few questions.

Why do you think the FOP is involved?

Do you think the goon in question was trying to protect his own department? If so, why?
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-03 03:30pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 12:15pm
That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
Wasn't his department. He was just doing a "solid" for the UHP.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-03 03:50pm

Flagg wrote:
2017-09-03 03:30pm
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 12:15pm
That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
Wasn't his department. He was just doing a "solid" for the UHP.
It was Cache County actually that requested the blood draw We call these agency assists and they happen all the time for a wide range of things. Basically it is so a Cache County deputy didn't have to make the 86 mile drive to SLC and then a 86 mile drive back along with time sensitive evidence.

I know this sounds like a conspiracy to some but blood draws are pretty standard on all fatal accidents and when an investigation branches out into multiple locations the investigating agency will ask for help.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-03 08:19pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-03 03:50pm
Flagg wrote:
2017-09-03 03:30pm
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 12:15pm
That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
Wasn't his department. He was just doing a "solid" for the UHP.
It was Cache County actually that requested the blood draw We call these agency assists and they happen all the time for a wide range of things. Basically it is so a Cache County deputy didn't have to make the 86 mile drive to SLC and then a 86 mile drive back along with time sensitive evidence.

I know this sounds like a conspiracy to some but blood draws are pretty standard on all fatal accidents and when an investigation branches out into multiple locations the investigating agency will ask for help.
I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a standard CYA move.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2017-09-03 09:17pm

News reports say that the crash victim/blood drawee was an off duty cop, and that the blood drawer cop wanted a blood sample as a proof that the drawee cop was not impaired in order to protect him.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi-bre ... /615604427

So i suspect that it was the opposite of what Flagg and Napoleon were saying, and that the motivation was actually a "blue-wall" thing.

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Dominus Atheos » 2017-09-03 09:33pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-03 02:00pm
Why do you think the FOP is involved?
The union contract probably has a clause "no instant job loss" that requires hearings and appeals. Most public sector union contracts has something similar. Police officers (and teachers) are notoriously hard to fire due to these contracts.

Edit: Here is the most neutral source I could find on the topic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... et/383258/

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-03 09:42pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2017-09-03 09:33pm
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-03 02:00pm
Why do you think the FOP is involved?
The union contract probably has a clause "no instant job loss" that requires hearings and appeals. Most public sector union contracts has something similar. Police officers (and teachers) are notoriously hard to fire due to these contracts.

Edit: Here is the most neutral source I could find on the topic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... et/383258/
I'm aware of the negative effects police unions have on keeping bad cops on the street. That's not my question.

My question is why does Napoleon the Clown think that FOP is involved in this matter at all?
Dominus Atheos wrote:
2017-09-03 09:17pm
News reports say that the crash victim/blood drawee was an off duty cop, and that the blood drawer cop wanted a blood sample as a proof that the drawee cop was not impaired in order to protect him.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi-bre ... /615604427

So i suspect that it was the opposite of what Flagg and Napoleon were saying, and that the motivation was actually a "blue-wall" thing.
Have you seen the video of this accident? Proof that he is not impaired is not necessary. He was driving just fine. No, what is going on is blood draws are typically sought in fatal accidents.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2017-09-03 10:04pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
2017-09-03 02:00pm
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 12:15pm
That the asshole (former vampire) cop is even still employed speaks volumes as to the corruption of the FOP. Then again, their embracing of the Orange Fascist showed their true colors even before that. In any other career, even in a union environment, the dude would be unemployed by the next morning for such an egregious violation. The FOP, however, doesn't want their members held accountable in any way. Police departments are inherently adverse to consequences.

The goon in question wanted to try and prevent the injured man from being able to take the department to court and have a good chance of winning. An illegally obtained blood sample may be inadmissible in criminal court, but in a civil court? Much less useless. The thug was just hoping there was something detected in the guy's blood to be able to say "Oh, well, if he hadn't been on this he could have avoided the crash so not our fault lol"

And a cop as corrupt as this fucker seems to be may even forge evidence.
Man. Your post left me with a few questions.

Why do you think the FOP is involved?
Because the goon with a badge was a fucking cop, and unless he is not a member of the Fraternal Order of Police that means he is under their protection, even if he commits a crime. They will do all in their power to protect even blatantly guilty cops. The Postal Union wouldn't protect a criminal letter carrier like the FOP do. They wouldn't protect a letter carrier that tampers with the mail, or commits egregious breaches of protocol. Making sure there's due process is all well and good, but when a union is so utterly corrupt? The FOP endorsing Trump erases any chance of me giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Do you think the goon in question was trying to protect his own department? If so, why?
Ah, protecting the Cache County police. My bad. Still protecting thugs. I have absolutely zero reason to believe that they knew the victim in question was a reserve police officer in another state. I don't see how they could have got their grubby little paws on his ID if he was fucking on fire.
Dominus Atheos wrote:
2017-09-03 09:17pm
News reports say that the crash victim/blood drawee was an off duty cop, and that the blood drawer cop wanted a blood sample as a proof that the drawee cop was not impaired in order to protect him.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi-bre ... /615604427

So i suspect that it was the opposite of what Flagg and Napoleon were saying, and that the motivation was actually a "blue-wall" thing.
Where does it say that in the linked article? Because in that same fucking article, it says the Rigby Police were unaware of the occurrence until August 31st. Hell, the Chief of the Rigby Police praised the nurse for protecting Gray's rights as per that article.

The thug with a badge was trying to protect the people he knew to be cops, not the burn victim that could sue the shit out of Cache County or UHP for his injuries. If you believe the Cache County Police or Utah Highway Patrol knew this guy was a reserve cop, I've got a bridge to sell you. I'll give you a damn good price on it. I'll also sell you a Chevette that'll outrun any other car on the road despite being bone-stock. (The joke here, FYI, is a stock Chevette takes close to 20 seconds to hit 60 mph.)
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-03 10:39pm

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 10:04pm
Because the goon with a badge was a fucking cop, and unless he is not a member of the Fraternal Order of Police that means he is under their protection, even if he commits a crime. They will do all in their power to protect even blatantly guilty cops. The Postal Union wouldn't protect a criminal letter carrier like the FOP do. They wouldn't protect a letter carrier that tampers with the mail, or commits egregious breaches of protocol. Making sure there's due process is all well and good, but when a union is so utterly corrupt? The FOP endorsing Trump erases any chance of me giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Alright. You should probably calm down or something. You are ranting and raving about something that so far as not been reported in any way.

Some SLC cops are members of the FOP but that list is very small. It is very unlikely he is a member but I will check.
Ah, protecting the Cache County police. My bad. Still protecting thugs. I have absolutely zero reason to believe that they knew the victim in question was a reserve police officer in another state. I don't see how they could have got their grubby little paws on his ID if he was fucking on fire.
Yeah dude. You definitely need to take a chill pill or something. I'm confused. Is the thug just all cops that happen to be in the surrounding area of this crash or is it Detective Jeff Payne? It seems, according to you, that the UHP troopers that were chasing this dangerous driver are thugs and the Cache County Sheriff Office deputies are thugs for investigating it.

Anyway, this was not to protect Cache County since they did nothing that would remotely expose them to liability. It was UHP that was chasing this guy when he crashed but even they aren't at high risk of liability because they were called to the attention of this driver by other citizens because this guy was driving erratically before any law enforcement got involved.
Where does it say that in the linked article? Because in that same fucking article, it says the Rigby Police were unaware of the occurrence until August 31st. Hell, the Chief of the Rigby Police praised the nurse for protecting Gray's rights as per that article.

The thug with a badge was trying to protect the people he knew to be cops, not the burn victim that could sue the shit out of Cache County or UHP for his injuries. If you believe the Cache County Police or Utah Highway Patrol knew this guy was a reserve cop, I've got a bridge to sell you. I'll give you a damn good price on it. I'll also sell you a Chevette that'll outrun any other car on the road despite being bone-stock. (The joke here, FYI, is a stock Chevette takes close to 20 seconds to hit 60 mph.)
There are other ways to identify someone as an officer besides ID. There is a badge. There is a possibly a firearm. There is possibly computer database identifying him as a law enforcement.

Regardless though. In fatal traffic accidents blood is typically sought from all drivers involved. The medical examiner will pull blood from the decedent. Law enforcement will typically request consent for blood from surviving drivers. Anyway, the fact that they wanted his blood is not atypical.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg » 2017-09-03 11:09pm

Dominus Atheos wrote:
2017-09-03 09:17pm
News reports say that the crash victim/blood drawee was an off duty cop, and that the blood drawer cop wanted a blood sample as a proof that the drawee cop was not impaired in order to protect him.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/kifi-bre ... /615604427

So i suspect that it was the opposite of what Flagg and Napoleon were saying, and that the motivation was actually a "blue-wall" thing.
That's the first I've heard of it and I've read several articles. Thanks for the update.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2017-09-03 11:11pm

It's mildly upsetting when a uniformed thug (I am referring to Jeff Payne here, in case it wasn't clear from context) attempts to violate an unconscious man's 4th Amendment rights and arrests a nurse for following the law, the hospital's policies, and basic medical ethics and the uniformed thug isn't so much as put on paid leave during the investigation. It is mildly upsetting that he threatened to take patients to another hospital when driving an ambulance. His behavior, on camera, should result in an "internal investigation" that involves looking at the video and audio evidence and saying, "Yep, he did everything wrong here. He is fired." Any other job and he'd have been out on his ass long before now. I'm not gonna be passive about police brutality, and how often it goes unpunished.

So maybe he's part of another police union. He's probably union, though. Even though Utah is Right-to-Work and he can't be required to join a union (unless Utah's Right-to-Work laws make an exception for police), who would say no to a union that can pretty much promise you they'll stop you from getting fired for just about anything? Most unions aren't so utterly powerful, so utterly corrupt, that they'll make sure a member is completely shielded from consequences. Making sure that the person isn't arbitrarily shitcanned, or fired under false pretenses is one thing. Protecting someone who violated every single law related to their actions? That's entirely different.

If the truck driver chose to take the UHP to court (and he could... how easily he could win under these circumstances is another question entirely) then being able to show even a trace of anything in his blood would strengthen their defense massively. A competent lawyer could claim that engaging in a high speed chase after getting identification of the vehicle and license plate was reckless and endangered the public more than breaking off pursuit and apprehending the guy at another point. Would it work? Dunno. But being able to say "Oh, he was on this so his reflexes weren't up to snuff!" would help them massively.

I don't trust police when they defend other police. Their word is immediately suspect. My only solace is that the victim is also a police officer, so the chances of justice are higher. Payne shouldn't be employed as a LEO in any capacity ever again, and he shouldn't be allowed to be employed as an emergency medical responder in any capacity ever again given his behavior.

Here's the straight truth on the blood sample: It would need to be proven that the victim were in some way inebriated. If they wanted to protect him from such allegations, they could wait until he was conscious and able to consent. Not that they would need to, because the crash was in no way his fault and in no way suggested some manner of inebriation or impairment.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith » 2017-09-04 12:10am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2017-09-03 11:11pm
It's mildly upsetting when a uniformed thug (I am referring to Jeff Payne here, in case it wasn't clear from context) attempts to violate an unconscious man's 4th Amendment rights and arrests a nurse for following the law, the hospital's policies, and basic medical ethics and the uniformed thug isn't so much as put on paid leave during the investigation. It is mildly upsetting that he threatened to take patients to another hospital when driving an ambulance. His behavior, on camera, should result in an "internal investigation" that involves looking at the video and audio evidence and saying, "Yep, he did everything wrong here. He is fired." Any other job and he'd have been out on his ass long before now. I'm not gonna be passive about police brutality, and how often it goes unpunished.
Completely agree. No excuse for your loss of control. It's one thing to be upset with Payne. It's one thing to be upset with SLC and the PD. It's another thing to start calling every officer involved in the incident a thug.
So maybe he's part of another police union. He's probably union, though. Even though Utah is Right-to-Work and he can't be required to join a union (unless Utah's Right-to-Work laws make an exception for police), who would say no to a union that can pretty much promise you they'll stop you from getting fired for just about anything? Most unions aren't so utterly powerful, so utterly corrupt, that they'll make sure a member is completely shielded from consequences. Making sure that the person isn't arbitrarily shitcanned, or fired under false pretenses is one thing. Protecting someone who violated every single law related to their actions? That's entirely different.
He is very likely the member of the local SLPD union which doesn't hold anywhere near the power like that of the FOP. Preventing someone from getting fired is well outside of their abilities. Hell, they can't even negotiate cost of living increase let alone something the size of not firing someone for a fuck up like Payne.

If he isn't fired it will be because the chief of police has too much direct power in that capacity. It shouldn't be up to him at all but it is entirely up to him.
If the truck driver chose to take the UHP to court (and he could... how easily he could win under these circumstances is another question entirely) then being able to show even a trace of anything in his blood would strengthen their defense massively. A competent lawyer could claim that engaging in a high speed chase after getting identification of the vehicle and license plate was reckless and endangered the public more than breaking off pursuit and apprehending the guy at another point. Would it work? Dunno. But being able to say "Oh, he was on this so his reflexes weren't up to snuff!" would help them massively.
This isn't a simple traffic offense that they were trying to stop this driver for. His driving was dangerous to the public which is why UHP was requested. The pursuit was also brief. Basically, they had a reason to conduct the traffic stop and a valid reason to pursue. This protects them from liability at least under established case law.
I don't trust police when they defend other police. Their word is immediately suspect. My only solace is that the victim is also a police officer, so the chances of justice are higher. Payne shouldn't be employed as a LEO in any capacity ever again, and he shouldn't be allowed to be employed as an emergency medical responder in any capacity ever again given his behavior.
This doesn't make sense. The only cop that did something wrong was Payne. UHP did not do anything wrong - their actual job is enforcing traffic law and protecting the public from threats posed by someone driving dangerously.

Anyway, I agree Payne should be let go.
Here's the straight truth on the blood sample: It would need to be proven that the victim were in some way inebriated. If they wanted to protect him from such allegations, they could wait until he was conscious and able to consent. Not that they would need to, because the crash was in no way his fault and in no way suggested some manner of inebriation or impairment.
Not proven. There would need to be reasonable suspicion of DUI in order to legally obtain the blood sample but this is otherwise correct.
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