General Police Abuse Thread

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Gandalf »

The PRIME MINISTER has jumped in. Scroll to the bottom of the story for his video. Pretty strong language for a head of government.
Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 01:39amGandalf, I engaged you because you made the claim that "american police are scared of minorities". The evidence you are showing here supports a claim that minorities are shot at a higher rate and that racism is likely the cause.

What you are doing is not putting two and two together. You are adding your own bigoted conclusion.
This makes little sense. Are you conceding the findings of the studies that the higher rates of police violence towards minorities are indicative of racism, but that my statement of American police being scared of minorities is somehow bigotry? Sorry for the clarifying question, but sometimes it's good to make sure I get something before I respond.

Also, I think we've hit a slight linguistic quirk with the term blue wall. Are you using it exclusively with the idea of "blue wall of silence," or do (sometimes pseudo)systemic protections also count. The usage I'm used to using here mostly refers to the systemic stuff as opposed to the "nobody talks, everybody walks" side of it.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gandalf wrote: 2017-07-24 02:13am This makes little sense. Are you conceding the findings of the studies that the higher rates of police violence towards minorities are indicative of racism, but that my statement of American police being scared of minorities is somehow bigotry? Sorry for the clarifying question, but sometimes it's good to make sure I get something before I respond.
Why would I concede to a disagreement I wasn't having? Let me put it this way. Saying minorities are shot at a higher rate is not the same as saying american police are scared of minorities. Your claim was not about shooting rates. It was about american police as a group and a generalization of that group.
Also, I think we've hit a slight linguistic quirk with the term blue wall. Are you using it exclusively with the idea of "blue wall of silence," or do (sometimes pseudo)systemic protections also count. The usage I'm used to using here mostly refers to the systemic stuff as opposed to the "nobody talks, everybody walks" side of it.
Yes, we have. Blue wall to me means cops protecting cops. Because blue is a term for cops...such as blue wall of silence, blue flu, boys in blue. Blue means cops. So, when you say blue wall you mean cop wall.

As for systemic protections. Could some of them be? Sure. However, you might want to consider long and hard whether it is wise to declare protecting your employees from financial ruin a form of systemic protection when they are under investigation. Due process is important...last time I checked and I would hope that we would support such a position for all employees.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

KS going off the deep end to protect his brethren is the best thing ever.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 03:45am KS going off the deep end to protect his brethren is the best thing ever.
Flagg stop being a coward. Stop being a troll. Respond to my reply to you. Either post an argument or concede. If you chose to concede do so like someone with some integrity and not a scared child. Enough with the trash posting.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 01:39am
Terralthra wrote: 2017-07-20 07:56pm "It's city policy, not blue wall behavior" is pretty specious argument when city policy on the subject of how police officers are treated when under investigation is largely determined by negotiation with the police officer's union.


No, it's not. Even if you were able to show us that city employees other than the police would be suspended without pay while under investigation it still would not be blue wall actions because the blue wall is defined as other police officers engaging in illegal activity to cover the crimes of another.
Not a definition of "blue wall" to which I ever agreed. My working definition is "solidarity of police officers with other police officers to protect each other, up to and including from the consequences of improper action." A list of things I'd count among that would be police unions demanding:
  • paid leave while under investigation
  • allowing police officers to view their own bodycam footage before making a statement
  • giving an officer who is being investigated written statements of all other witnesses and an accounting of all evidence before interrogation
  • requiring departments to give officers up to ten days' notice before any statement can be taken
  • preventing department supervisors from considering disciplinary files when making employment decisions
These are all things police officers' unions have done, and aren't even particularly outlandish requirements.
Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 01:39amHopefully you're not being a hypocrite here and believe that all employees should be suspended without pay when under investigation.
Err...for murder? Yes, I'd hope so. Unpaid leave is the least of the consequences most people under investigation for murder might expect.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

It's truly funny that KS doesn't comprehend the idea that legalistic bullshit isn't a valid argument for the police getting away with cold blooded murder. I mean the Nuremberg race laws could be a defense in KS's world. In a functioning non-police state if a cop shoots an unarmed human being they would be treated like a sanitation worker who did the same: led away in handcuffs. The fact that this concept is so disturbing to him that he makes veiled threats to people who disagree with him on the internet speaks to his unsuitability to be a crossing guard.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 03:44amWhy would I concede to a disagreement I wasn't having? Let me put it this way. Saying minorities are shot at a higher rate is not the same as saying american police are scared of minorities. Your claim was not about shooting rates. It was about american police as a group and a generalization of that group.
It certainly explains why it persists as a problem though, especially given the history of class politics in the US. What conclusion would you draw?
Yes, we have. Blue wall to me means cops protecting cops. Because blue is a term for cops...such as blue wall of silence, blue flu, boys in blue. Blue means cops. So, when you say blue wall you mean cop wall.
For me it means "thing that protects blue," a bit like the Great Wall of China.
As for systemic protections. Could some of them be? Sure. However, you might want to consider long and hard whether it is wise to declare protecting your employees from financial ruin a form of systemic protection when they are under investigation. Due process is important...last time I checked and I would hope that we would support such a position for all employees.
If a garbageman accidentally crushed someone with the compactor in the truck, or a council ranger killed someone with a parking ticket machine, I wager there would be something worse than "paid leave." They'd get the investigation, and might get to see it from the gaol's television.

When one has the legal power to execute people on the street, maybe they should have a higher standard?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
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Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Terralthra wrote: 2017-07-24 04:03am Not a definition of "blue wall" to which I ever agreed. My working definition is "solidarity of police officers with other police officers to protect each other, up to and including from the consequences of improper action." A list of things I'd count among that would be police unions demanding:

Err...for murder? Yes, I'd hope so. Unpaid leave is the least of the consequences most people under investigation for murder might expect.
So, when a police officer shoots and kills someone they should be placed on unpaid leave?
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 04:37am It's truly funny that KS doesn't comprehend the idea that legalistic bullshit isn't a valid argument for the police getting away with cold blooded murder. I mean the Nuremberg race laws could be a defense in KS's world. In a functioning non-police state if a cop shoots an unarmed human being they would be treated like a sanitation worker who did the same: led away in handcuffs. The fact that this concept is so disturbing to him that he makes veiled threats to people who disagree with him on the internet speaks to his unsuitability to be a crossing guard.
If you want to be treated like a troll that's your choice man. I tried to have a discussion with you but I'm not going to do this bullshit. Also, nobody threatened you ya big baby.
Gandalf wrote: 2017-07-24 04:45am It certainly explains why it persists as a problem though, especially given the history of class politics in the US. What conclusion would you draw?
I wouldn't draw a generalized conclusion from it. That's never OK when you're dealing with groups of people that joined for different reasons and conduct themselves different. There are many cops in the United States that haven't killed anyone and conduct themselves honorably.

The conclusion I would draw from the data you posted is the minorities, specifically african american, are being shot by police at a much higher rate than other groups. The cause of this ranges from poor training, poor hiring practices, bias - but not just about race about particular areas for example a police officer will be more on edge in a high crime area especially if that crime tends to be violent.
If a garbageman accidentally crushed someone with the compactor in the truck, or a council ranger killed someone with a parking ticket machine, I wager there would be something worse than "paid leave." They'd get the investigation, and might get to see it from the gaol's television.

When one has the legal power to execute people on the street, maybe they should have a higher standard?
Are any of those people given a gun and trained to defend others and themselves? I agree about the higher standard but I think treating a police officer as if he is the garbage man is just a tad unfair.

Also, regarding industrial accidents -
Since the creation of the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) 32 years ago, there have been more than 200,000 workplace-related deaths. However, OSHA has referred only 151 cases to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution -- and the maximum penalty companies face for a "willful violation" of OSHA laws is a misdemeanor. Federal prosecutors have declined to pursue two-thirds of these cases, and only eight of them have resulted in prison sentences for company officials. Here's a look at those eight cases. [Note: Dates refer to the date of the OSHA referral.]
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... rrals.html
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Yeah, "never forget that." Not a threat? What then? A statement that the normal rules do not apply to you? I mean I don't expect better from your average power tripping donut muncher but I did from you. Glad you revealed your true colors. :lol:
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 03:53am
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 03:45am KS going off the deep end to protect his brethren is the best thing ever.
Flagg stop being a coward. Stop being a troll. Respond to my reply to you. Either post an argument or concede. If you chose to concede do so like someone with some integrity and not a scared child. Enough with the trash posting.
A coward makes vague threats over the internet. If I were a coward I wouldn't be mocking you relentlessly like you deserve. Your arguments boil down to "it's the law" which is legalistic bullshit. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to just make fun of you at this point. Until a moderator says otherwise I will. If you eat bacon is it cannibalism?
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 10:17am Yeah, "never forget that." Not a threat? What then? A statement that the normal rules do not apply to you? I mean I don't expect better from your average power tripping donut muncher but I did from you. Glad you revealed your true colors. :lol:
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 11:35am

A coward makes vague threats over the internet. If I were a coward I wouldn't be mocking you relentlessly like you deserve. Your arguments boil down to "it's the law" which is legalistic bullshit. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to just make fun of you at this point. Until a moderator says otherwise I will. If you eat bacon is it cannibalism?
LMAO

Nobody threatened you, Flagg. You are the biggest internet baby that I have ever seen. I mean that with all sincerity. Goodbye, Flagg. - also not a threat precious.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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I couldn't help but notice the cop in question had a rather obvious "minority" name...I take it his being a cop trumps the latter? Are there any similiarities between this and the incident with the Chinese-AMerican cop in NY who also shot someone?
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 11:48am
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 10:17am Yeah, "never forget that." Not a threat? What then? A statement that the normal rules do not apply to you? I mean I don't expect better from your average power tripping donut muncher but I did from you. Glad you revealed your true colors. :lol:
Flagg wrote: 2017-07-24 11:35am

A coward makes vague threats over the internet. If I were a coward I wouldn't be mocking you relentlessly like you deserve. Your arguments boil down to "it's the law" which is legalistic bullshit. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to just make fun of you at this point. Until a moderator says otherwise I will. If you eat bacon is it cannibalism?
LMAO

Nobody threatened you, Flagg. You are the biggest internet baby that I have ever seen. I mean that with all sincerity. Goodbye, Flagg. - also not a threat precious.
I'll take your word for it that it wasn't a threat, rather a statement from a dickless shithead who is used to the rules not applying to them that saying they didn't think the rules applied to them. But this not being an American municipality you were proven wrong and got bitchslapped because a Canadian BBS has higher standards than whatever shithole is stupid enough to give a twat like you a badge and a gun. It was so epic that "I'll never forget that."
Try not to shoot anyone, Barney.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Flagg »

BTW, since KS's tantrum on being called out for being another coward with a gun has made a mess, I'll be taking a break from posting in this thread for the foreseeable future unless an abnormally horrid police shooting takes place and I feel I have something to add.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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That'll be next week, Flagg.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Thanas »

Let's all take a breather.

As for my argument with regards to police, I am pretty sure that either they were very afraid of a women in pyjamas (thus being cowards, also "lol ambush") or that they are homocidal maniacs.

Which is it?
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 05:47amI wouldn't draw a generalized conclusion from it. That's never OK when you're dealing with groups of people that joined for different reasons and conduct themselves different. There are many cops in the United States that haven't killed anyone and conduct themselves honorably.

The conclusion I would draw from the data you posted is the minorities, specifically african american, are being shot by police at a much higher rate than other groups. The cause of this ranges from poor training, poor hiring practices, bias - but not just about race about particular areas for example a police officer will be more on edge in a high crime area especially if that crime tends to be violent.
Interestingly, some of the work to which I linked even accounts for the higher crime areas that are more intimidating, and even within those areas a bias exists. So while people may join for all sorts of glorious, honourable reasons or whatever, once the hat comes on, they become part of the proverbial blue team. That team has a problem.
Are any of those people given a gun and trained to defend others and themselves? I agree about the higher standard but I think treating a police officer as if he is the garbage man is just a tad unfair.
Why? Because they don't get to be a class unto themselves, complete with little "my father/brother/other is a cop, don't give me a ticket" cards? To whom would you have them compared?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gandalf wrote: 2017-07-24 10:18pm
Interestingly, some of the work to which I linked even accounts for the higher crime areas that are more intimidating, and even within those areas a bias exists. So while people may join for all sorts of glorious, honourable reasons or whatever, once the hat comes on, they become part of the proverbial blue team. That team has a problem.
The study itself did not make the conclusion that all american cops are racist or scared of minorties. It couldn't because it was only looking at shootings. I'm surprised by how difficult this concept it for you.

Sorry man. You don't get to call everyone that belongs to the team guilty of that problem even though there is one. Also calling it a team is a bit ridiculous. It would be more accurate to compare it to an organization like the NBA for example.
Why? Because they don't get to be a class unto themselves, complete with little "my father/brother/other is a cop, don't give me a ticket" cards? To whom would you have them compared?
This is an exellent example of why you're wrong. What you're talking about isn't seen in Utah. We don't give people cards so they can get out of a ticket. We don't give them anything. So why should I accept being accused of doing so?

Police have a different job than garbage man. For example if you had a garbage man that was getting into fights with people along his routes then you likely have a problem garbage man.

As an officer there are some weeks where I don't have to fight someone during an arrest and others where I do.

A garbage isn't given a gun and not expected to go out and use deadly force when someones life is in danger. It's an obviously silly comparison.

Anyway we have to agree to disagree.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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Kamakazie Sith wrote: 2017-07-24 11:15pmThe study itself did not make the conclusion that all american cops are racist or scared of minorties. It couldn't because it was only looking at shootings. I'm surprised by how difficult this concept it for you.
I never said "all American cops are racist/scared." Even if one plays "few bad apples," a lot of the non-bad apples seem to do a great job covering for them or just not speaking up.
Sorry man. You don't get to call everyone that belongs to the team guilty of that problem even though there is one. Also calling it a team is a bit ridiculous. It would be more accurate to compare it to an organization like the NBA for example.
Sure I can. The team/franchise/whatever you want to use is collectively guilty.
This is an excellent example of why you're wrong. What you're talking about isn't seen in Utah. We don't give people cards so they can get out of a ticket. We don't give them anything. So why should I accept being accused of doing so?
My point was about police acting as a class unto themselves. Can a police officer elect not to arrest/ticket someone because of a personal relationship? Y/N.
Police have a different job than garbage man. For example if you had a garbage man that was getting into fights with people along his routes then you likely have a problem garbage man.

As an officer there are some weeks where I don't have to fight someone during an arrest and others where I do.

A garbage isn't given a gun and not expected to go out and use deadly force when someones life is in danger. It's an obviously silly comparison.
You've ducked my point, and quite poorly at that. In another post, you likened police to other city employees, and seemed curious as to why they would be treated differently. If someone else fucks up in their job, the consequences are relatively minor, because nobody is fucking dead. If a garbage collector hits my car with their truck, we can both give testimony and get it resolved one way or another. If a ticket officer mistickets me, again, we can both get it resolved. If I get shot, I can only really hope nobody fucks with my body in the meantime before I can give testimony to forensics. In the meantime, the best case scenario is that justice prevails one way or another and maybe some fiscal compensation makes its way to my loved ones. Property and money can be replaced. People cannot. So when you complain "how should cops be treated when they execute people on the street?" I'd really like to know about the point of comparison.
AniThyng wrote: 2017-07-24 12:01pmI couldn't help but notice the cop in question had a rather obvious "minority" name...I take it his being a cop trumps the latter? Are there any similiarities between this and the incident with the Chinese-AMerican cop in NY who also shot someone?
From what I've seen in Australian media (this is still one of the top stories), the cop is still just framed as "American" as opposed to any specific minority. But the whole story is framed as "American police shot another unarmed person. This one was an Australian from Sydney." They then go into the details like his paid leave, lack of camera, etc.
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Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

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The news is a few days old, but the Minneapolis police chief has stood down.

I'd recommend visiting the actual link, because it has links to the statements by the department, as well as some other media related to the rallies.
ABC News wrote:Embattled Minneapolis Police Chief Janee Harteau has resigned after coming under fire for not returning from a holiday when one of her officers shot unarmed Australian woman Justine Damond.

Ms Damond was shot by junior officer Mohamed Noor after she called 911 late last Saturday night, fearing a sexual assault was happening in an alleyway behind her house.

The Police Chief's decision to step down came just a day after making her first remarks on the death of the 40-year-old.

She was out of the city in the days after the shooting, and said yesterday she had been on personal time and was in touch with her command staff.

A statement from the city said Chief Harteau quit at the request of Mayor Betsy Hodges.

"I've lost confidence in the Chief's ability to lead us further — and from the many conversations I've had with people around our city, especially this week, it is clear she has lost the confidence of the people of Minneapolis as well," the Mayor said in a statement.

"For us to continue to transform policing and community trust in policing — we need new leadership at MPD.

"I asked Chief Harteau for her resignation, she tendered it, and I have accepted it."

Chief Harteau said in a statement she was "proud of the great work the MPD has accomplished".

"However, last Saturday's tragedy, as well as some other recent incidents, have caused me to engage in deep reflection," she said.

"Despite the MPD's many accomplishments under my leadership over these years and my love for the City, I have to put the communities we serve first.

"I've decided I am willing to step aside to let a fresh set of leadership eyes see what more can be done for the MPD to be the very best it can."

Current Assistant Chief Medaria "Rondo" Arradondo has been nominated by the Mayor to succeed Chief Harteau.

Ms Damond's death is being investigated by the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

The chief's decision came as investigators tracked down a witness to the incident, after earlier saying they were searching for a cyclist who stopped and watched as officers performed CPR on Ms Damond.

A source with direct knowledge of the investigation said the witness had filmed part of the encounter, the Star Tribune reported.

Hundreds march after Police Chief's remarks

The Police Chief yesterday addressed the media after Ms Damond's shooting, saying Mr Noor had violated department training and procedures and the Australian's death "should not have happened".

Neither of the officers involved had their body cameras turned on at the time, which has drawn widespread criticism of the department.

"Justine didn't have to die … I believe the actions in question go against who we are as a department, how we train and the expectations we have for our officers," Chief Harteau said.

"On our squad cars you will find the words, 'To protect with courage and serve with compassion'. This did not happen.
"I want to assure Justine's family, our community and those in Australia that I will do everything in my power to ensure due process is followed and justice is served."

The shooting has heightened tensions in the community, reopening a deep rift between locals and the authorities just over one year after Minneapolis man Philando Castile was shot and killed by police officer Jeronimo Yanez.

Mr Noor's lawyer, Tom Plunkett, reportedly told US news he had asked that an independent laboratory test be carried out to see if there were any drugs in Ms Damond's system at the time of her death.

But Mr Plunkett has denied the reports, telling AAP it was a "total misquote" and was "not true".

Hundreds of people turned out to march in protest of the shooting after Chief Harteau's press conference, calling for justice and chanting "no justice, no peace, prosecute the police", and "if Justine don't get it, shut it down".

Castile's family joined the protesters, with his mother Valerie saying she "just had to come out today".

The group demanded Mr Noor be prosecuted and fired if he continued to refuse to talk to investigators, and called for the release of the dashcam footage from the 911 call.
This was a step I did not expect. Also, the bit about the lawyer supposedly looking for a drug test is ridiculous if true.
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Thanas
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Thanas »

I am not sure if firing the chief was the right call. From her comments she seemed to be ready to admit fault and attempt a cleanup.



Now on to the unpleasantness:
Flagg gets a warning for ignoring his opponents arguments and engaging in ad honimum.
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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

You've ducked my point, and quite poorly at that. In another post, you likened police to other city employees, and seemed curious as to why they would be treated differently. If someone else fucks up in their job, the consequences are relatively minor, because nobody is fucking dead. If a garbage collector hits my car with their truck, we can both give testimony and get it resolved one way or another.
Here is where you are missing his point. Every municipal employee has certain protections. There is due process in the event of a grievance against them, for example. If a garbage truck is involved in a lethal accident, they may not be put on leave at all while that accident is being investigated, because accidents happen.

In the case of police... sometimes shooting people is legitimately part of their job. Do you put someone on week after week of unpaid leave if they have to shoot a rapist caught in flagrante? What about a pair of officers wounded in the line of duty because a murder suspect pulled a gun and shot both of them before they could react, and they managed to put him down while bleeding from their own gunshots? Of course you don't. The investigation is there to (in theory, the practice is different) to determine if the officer did someone wrong in that shooting--and every shooting is investigated like this. Every single one. If they are innocent, why the hell would you render them homeless? Because that is what weeks of unpaid leave will do to a police officer. Sane people wait until the investigation is concluded.

It is easy and feels really good to say that officers who shoot someone should be on unpaid leave until the investigation is finished, but a hefty chunk of those shootings are perfectly justified, and rendering innocent civil servants destitute is not a solution to the problem.
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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Thanas wrote: 2017-07-24 05:42pm Let's all take a breather.

As for my argument with regards to police, I am pretty sure that either they were very afraid of a women in pyjamas (thus being cowards, also "lol ambush") or that they are homocidal maniacs.

Which is it?
Third option. Something went terribly terribly wrong in this case. I mean... this guy freaked the fuck out and fired over his partner's body through the door of the police car. This is the sort of incident that screams "latent psychological damage" to me. Like "nearby car back-firing triggered a severe PTSD reaction" sort of damage.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Terralthra »

Louis Tramunti’s Wife Thought He Was Having a Heart Attack. So Why Did the Police Break His Back? wrote: He made it unscathed from Whitestone to Westchester. Then his wife called 911 and things fell apart, fast.

Harry Siegel
HARRY SIEGEL
07.27.17 1:00 AM ET
When Louis Tramunti’s wife called 911, she wanted EMTs to save her husband’s life after a heart attack. Instead, two policemen threw him to the floor and broke his back. It was just one of those things; didn’t even make the papers.

Louis, an old friend of an old friend of mine, called me nearly a year later because “people need to know about this, bro,” which didn’t thrill his attorney.

“I’m not typically a PR lawyer,” said Steven Falkoff when I called. “It’s a basic fact pattern and excessive-force case. I don’t know how much sexiness there is for a broader story.”
To Louis—a good-natured if foul-mouthed 37-year-old Bernie-supporting son of Whitestone, a corner of Queens untouched by gentrification or even integration—it’s the only story.
He’s been married for seven years to Szilvia, a lovely Hungarian immigrant whose calmness evens out his off-the-walls hyperactivity, and he’s worked for more than 15 years as a plumbing surveyor, making good union wages mapping out where the sleeves go as new high-end Manhattan buildings rise up. Wherever Louis works now, he etches the name of their 2-year-old son, Marco, behind where the wall will be on each floor. The job puts him on top of half-finished buildings, Manhattan stretched out before him. Being up there, he says, is what made him fear thunder.

The family lives 40 miles and a world from Henry Hill or Archie Bunker’s Queens, in a split-level house in leafy Yorktown Heights, Westchester, just past the Donald J. Trump State Park (yes, no kidding; Trump donated the land in 2006) and down the road from the Elks Lodge. Before that, they lived for eight years in an apartment a few miles away in Hartsdale.

That’s where they were on April Fool’s Day 2016, a Saturday, as Szilvia drove her car into Greenburgh to have an officer do a safety check on the child seat, since Marco—a big kid, like his dad—had to start facing front. Went to dinner with them, put Marco to sleep, and went to bed herself.

Early Sunday morning, in the midst of a huge storm, the police came to them.

The thunder woke up Szilvia, and she heard a weird, loud groan and turned to shush Louis, who she figured was once again being some sort of goofy. She sees that he’s on his stomach shaking, sweating up a storm and drooling all over himself, not responding to her and still making the weird groan. So she called 911 (“for the first time in my life,” she later told The Daily Beast. “I’m a shy person”) and told the operator her husband’s having a heart attack.

She’s still on the line when the EMTs arrived, standing at the open front door of their apartment with Marco in her arms and a drop of blood on her shirt from a stress-induced nosebleed. The first responders saw her and then Louis, all 6 feet and 200 pounds of him, lurching in his underwear and walk away, telling the Greenburgh Police Officers en route to step on it.

Two officers get there and see Louis standing against a wall, eyes open but not responding to them. They approach, shine a light in his eyes, and just as he comes to and realizes they’re there, “I’m landing on my back and hitting my head at the same time.

“They had my arms pinned and their knees to my chest and they’re still shining the light in my eyes, and I’m just coming to and then they turn me around and squeeze my elbows together behind my back, and one of them has a knee in my back, and my legs go numb. I tell them I can’t breathe but the knee’s still there. I hear something crack and they crisscross my hands and cuff them and pull me up by the back and my chest starts killing me.

“They’re not saying anything to me, just dragging me out the door and Marco’s on the couch watching and someone’s saying to my wife ‘Don’t sugarcoat it, honey, we know he beat you up.’ And then I’m outside, in my fucking underwear, in the fucking snow, before all my neighbors.”

“Now, they’re talking to me: ‘We know you beat your wife.’”

“And I’m thinking: ‘Are you fucking kidding me’?”

The EMTs get outside and an officer comes with them and cuffs Louis inside the ambulance.

“This cop is telling me: ‘Yeah you beat your wife up. Is that the kind of man you are?’’

“I’m crying. I mean, I’ve never laid a hand on my wife. I had a great day. We had dinner and I played Call of Duty and fell asleep on the couch. Went into our bed and held my wife and fell back asleep. Wake up and there are the police taking me down—boom!—and telling me I beat my wife.

“I’m licking my lips and someone tells me to fucking stop so I do and I feel nauseous. Then tells me not to throw up, or it’s going to a big problem. They put a bag over my mouth.

“I’m crying. Is this who I am? Last thing I knew, I was falling asleep.

“I remember one of them saying we have a possible fifty-fifty-one or whatever and it seemed so odd. Later I realized that meant they were reporting they had a crazy or deranged person.

“So we get to the White Plains Hospital and I’m cuffed to the gurney, screaming the whole time that my ribs are killing me and that I can’t breathe. The cop from my house is there, trying to play the good-guy role and telling me, ‘Honestly, you know you really did beat up your wife tonight. You beat your wife good.’

“This doctor comes in and asks me questions and hears the way I’m staggering in my speech and right away wants to see if I had a seizure.

“Later, they put all the wiring in my head, and they told me I’d had a seizure. My first one. In fact, I had all the signs of one, bro, that the EMTs should have recognized. My wife didn’t say that when she called 911, because she’s not a doctor.

“Then they found I had four fractured vertebrae. I was in so much pain from my back and then on so much pain medication that I didn’t realize, and the doctors didn’t find until days later, that I’d also torn the tendon between my chest and my ribs.

That was long after “the cop, the same one who kept telling me I’d beaten my wife, finally took the cuffs off me.

“He said, ‘Sorry buddy. You’ll be OK.’ And then he left.”

No charges were filed.

Here’s how the night’s events come out in the colder, more cautious language of official reports. Remember everything that follows (and is sic’d throughout) is in response to Szilvia’s call to 911 saying her husband was having a heart attack:

From the Greenburgh Police Department EMS Report:
Primary Impression: Behavioral/Psychiatric Disorder

Chief Complaint: bizarre behavior

Signs & Symptoms: Other - bizarre behavior, Generalized Symptoms - Vomiting

Barriers of Care: Physcially Restrained

Abnormalities, Mental Status: Confused, Hallucinations, Other

Narrative: U/A find Pt on scene inside residence Awake and alert but non verbal standing up against the living room. Pt not responding to verbal stimuli or commands. Pt sweating, appears frightened and acting bizarre. Listed officer and Officer Maiden placed pt in restraints for pt’s safety and others on the scene. After pt was placed in cuffs he began responded to Officers. Pt reports he does not remeber getting out of bed and that the last thing he remembers wass going to sleep and then being in hand cuffs with Officers. Pt denies pain or discomfort. Pt placed on stretcher and into ambulance… Further als assessment waived in favor of patient being transported to the appropriate facility for a psych evaluation. While enroute the pt made statements like, “is this real”, as if parnoid.Pt care tansferred to stall.

Wife on scene reports her husband awoke from bed after a loud ligthing strike sound was heard outside during a storm. Pt would not listen to her and was roaming around the apartment as if he was terrified. Wife reports pt has never acted like this before and that he does not abuse drugs or alcohol. Wife reports pt was acting normal before going to bed the evening and that everything was normal.
From the police Incident/Investigation Report, about responding to “a possible ‘heart attack’”:
On approach to the residence, the Undersigned and PO Freeman observed a Greenville Fire Captain run out of the premise and state, “He is acting up in there, you better get in fast!”

On entering, the officers observed a middle aged man wearing only his boxers standing in the landing of the kitchen… (and) a white female and a young child standing in the livingroom. Both the child and the female appeared to be afraid. It should also be noted that the female was bleeding from the nose and had blood on her shirt and there were some blood droplets on the floor.

At this point, PO Freeman attempted to make vocal contact with the unknown male (later identified: as (PT) Tramunti, Louis) with negative result. The male only stared blankly at officers while sweating profusely and looking back and forth in an agitated state and obviously acting bizarre. At this time, PO Freeman and the undersigned, for the safety of the officers and all other people on the scene, decided to achieve control of the non-vocal and non-compliant PT by placing him in handcuffs and then placing him on the floor so that he could be properly assessed by PO Paramedic Freeman… The undersigned restrained PT’s legs in order to protect himself and officer freeman from being kicked during the assessment.
And from the supplemental report filed months later by the same officer, claiming that Louis “was awake and alert, sweating and appeared frightened” when the officers entered, It stresses that Szilvia and Marco, too, “appeared frightened” and that there was blood on her shirt and “droplets” on the floor:
Despite reporting that Louis was “awake and alert,” it continues: PT did not reply to verbal communication… was acting bizarre and appeared agitated. (PT stared blankly, back and forth at Officers as if confused. While on the floor in a supine position listed Officer assessed the (PT)’s vital signs… and obvious signs of trauma, which all appeared normal.



“When in the back of the ambulance (PT) came out of his trance like state and began asking what happened. … (PT) stated, “is this real” numerous times as if paranoid. (PT) kept asking what had happened after being told numerous times by listed Offiicer. (PT) did not complain of injury or pain other than discomfort from the hand cuffs that remained on him during the transport to the hospital.
Louis—who spent six weeks recovering before going back to work—and Szilvia are suing after rejecting a settlement offer.

Asked about the suit, Greenburgh Police Chief Chris McNerney emailed: “We are committed to vigorously defending yet another frivolous lawsuit against a police department. We are looking forward to the facts being presented in a court of law, as there is not one credible piece of evidence to support this outrageous claim.”

Also looking forward to an accounting and a judgment is Louis, who’s still fuming 15 months later about falling asleep with his family and waking up with his back broken, being told he’d beat his wife.

“On a work site,” he says, if a storm is coming and the winds get above 25 miles per hour, you get everyone off the roof to keep them safe and, in the process, ensure your own bottom line. How is it that cops,” he asks, “are held to such a lower bar?”

He’s furious that the department’s new body-camera program hadn’t rolled out when the police showed up at his door. About how, if he loses the suit, he may have to pay the department’s legal fees. “They have the nerve to do this. That’s intimidation. That’s bullshit.”

And he’s worried about his sex life—“I’m an Italian guy from Queens who was in a body cast. It is what it is, and it isn’t good”—while Szilvia’s worried about his health and earnings to support Marco and, she hopes, his future siblings.

The legal issue here is a much narrower one, says Falkoff, Louis’ lawyer, “focused on the amount of force they used in arresting him and the perceptions of the officers as it’s unfolding. This wasn’t 20 minutes but 15 or 20 seconds. EMS tells the cops to get in there fast, because they see the wife bleeding and Louis out of it. Cops get there and maybe it’s reasonable to take Louis down to the floor when he doesn’t respond. It’s the amount of force they used to take him down that’s the issue here.”

For Louis, it comes down to right and wrong.

“I never, ever beat anybody up, been drunk in public, had any issue with the police, done anything. I live for my son and my wife, my family, and I work hard. I don’t expect this to happen to me or anybody for that matter.

“How is it that no one can say, ‘We’re sorry and that was wrong’?”

“It’s insane. I have to see doctors and a physical therapist and also someone for PTSD now. I’m back at work, but I can’t talk about it with anyone there. There’s no support group for this. And when I tell my black friend, he just says ‘that’s how it is.’

“That’s not right. That’s not how it should be. I’m trying to tell white people: They’re coming for you, too, bro.”
The police chief saying it is an obvious "frivolous lawsuit" when they broke the spine of the person they were called to help is just the icing on the cake.
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Re: General Police Abuse Thread

Post by Highlord Laan »

Of course it is frivolous, Terra. The plebs are always in the wrong if they seek justice against their betters. I thought you knew how america worked?

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