General North Korea thread

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 1495
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby FireNexus » 2017-04-14 12:05pm

Broomstick wrote:As far as I know Russia is not backing NK and hasn't since the USSR collapsed. It's China that backs them.


That's what I meant. The TV is on news and they were discussing Russia when I typed that.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13938
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Gandalf » 2017-04-14 12:51pm

Ralin wrote:So in other words nothing the administration cares about.

I think the thing you have to bear in mind to understand Trump's foreign policy decisions, aside from the fact that he's making them up as he goes along depending on whether he feels his tiny hands have been insulted, is that Trump believes that America is literally invincible. None of the consequences of military action ultimately matter, because America cannot be beaten except by exploiting America's awesome generosity and benevolence. Which is of course a weakness CEO Trump is more than capable of overcoming.


If the ROK is attacked, as well as maybe Japan or China, it'll have major economic effects for everyone, especially the businessfolk throughout the administration who could stand to lose a fuckton in investments affected by circumstances in the area.

Also, I think Trump has blocks of flats in Seoul and other cities nearby. So there's that. :P
"How you wanna raise a flag with a rifle
To make us want to celebrate anything but survival?
Nah, you watching tele for The Bachelor
But wouldn’t read a book about a fuckload of massacres?"

- A.B. Original, January 26

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12010
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-14 01:00pm

Who wants to bet that Kim Jong Fatty would deliberately target Trumps' buildings in SK out of spite?

Really, they're kindred spirits in some ways- spiteful little man children who substitute posturing for actual leadership. Kim just has more power to act unilaterally within his country, while Trump has more power to fuck up the whole world (though Kim has quite a lot of that too).
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 1495
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby FireNexus » 2017-04-14 01:39pm

Kim doing a targeted shelling o Trump-owned properties would actually result in a marginal increase if my level of affection for him. Especially if he made a big and clear announcement about how he just wants to fuck over Trump.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1718
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-04-14 07:37pm

FireNexus wrote:Kim doing a targeted shelling o Trump-owned properties would actually result in a marginal increase if my level of affection for him. Especially if he made a big and clear announcement about how he just wants to fuck over Trump.

That would be fucking hilarious!
Trump believes that America is literally invincible.

Thing is, Kim Jong Fatass believes the exact same thing about NK. :wtf:
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

Ralin
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2157
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Ralin » 2017-04-14 08:20pm

Gandalf wrote:If the ROK is attacked, as well as maybe Japan or China, it'll have major economic effects for everyone, especially the businessfolk throughout the administration who could stand to lose a fuckton in investments affected by circumstances in the area.


True. Trump is too canny and responsible to do something that would waste a huge amount of money based on his own ego. He'd never fuck over investors and business partners like that.

Also, I think Trump has blocks of flats in Seoul and other cities nearby. So there's that. :P


Yeah. Trump's too good of a businessman to fuck up his real estate purchases.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Thing is, Kim Jong Fatass believes the exact same thing about NK. :wtf:


I see a lot less evidence of that, frankly. Yeah he has the same old North Korean juche spirit etc rhetoric, but it's the same basic script his father followed, and his father was a rational person who didn't want to actually start a war with the US. As demonstrated by the fact that he did not do so.

Trump is at a minimum way more of a question mark on the "Does he really believe that?" scale than Kim.

User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12197
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: The Sanctuary Doing Some Ironing

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Flagg » 2017-04-14 10:18pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
FireNexus wrote:Kim doing a targeted shelling o Trump-owned properties would actually result in a marginal increase if my level of affection for him. Especially if he made a big and clear announcement about how he just wants to fuck over Trump.

That would be fucking hilarious!
Trump believes that America is literally invincible.

Thing is, Kim Jong Fatass believes the exact same thing about NK. :wtf:

Please. The little shit went to Harvard, IIRC, so I doubt he's stupid or wants to see his own personal playground North Korea obliterated. This also means he may well have pretty good idea of the American mindset concerning North Korea which from what I can tell is "Where is that? That's the one where everyone is crazy and they troll the UN, right?"

If there's a war on the Korean Peninsula it will almost certainly be as a result of South Korea and President Pussygrabber's idiotic bluffing and threats. I mean "OMG NORTH KOREA IS DOING A MISSILE TEST OR EXPLODING ANOTHER NUKE UNDERGROUNG ON THEIR OWN SOIL!!! Call the Avengers! No, not the British crap from the 60's, the one with Iron Man"!
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

User avatar
The_Saint
Jedi Knight
Posts: 601
Joined: 2007-05-05 04:13am
Location: Under Down Under

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby The_Saint » 2017-04-21 08:29am

Broomstick wrote:
FireNexus wrote:I don't know that war is necessary, and I suspect that North Korea will fall apart on their own if Russia just stops backing them, but if you take the premise that a war before they manage to become fully nuclear and that they won't collapse before that as a given, we have the cards we were dealt and that means Trump.

As far as I know Russia is not backing NK and hasn't since the USSR collapsed. It's China that backs them.



I think the big catch here for Trump's deals with China is how far China is really willing to keep bailing North Korea out of it's own problems.

For the last 10-15 years it's seemed China's 'backing' of NK is less of a "hey you're our fellow communist friends, let us give you a hand" and more of a "it's less trouble to give you some food and cash to stay over there than have to deal with 25 million refugees over here". Certainly China's attitude after the first nuclear test was surprising when they seemed to give Kim the metaphorical slap upside the head.
All people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1718
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

North Korea warns it will 'wipe America off face of the Earth' after accusing US of plotting chemical weapons attack

Postby EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-04-22 02:17pm

Please. The little shit went to Harvard, IIRC, so I doubt he's stupid or wants to see his own personal playground North Korea obliterated. This also means he may well have pretty good idea of the American mindset concerning North Korea which from what I can tell is "Where is that? That's the one where everyone is crazy and they troll the UN, right?"

If there's a war on the Korean Peninsula it will almost certainly be as a result of South Korea and President Pussygrabber's idiotic bluffing and threats. I mean "OMG NORTH KOREA IS DOING A MISSILE TEST OR EXPLODING ANOTHER NUKE UNDERGROUNG ON THEIR OWN SOIL!!! Call the Avengers! No, not the British crap from the 60's, the one with Iron Man"!


North Korea has warned it will wipe America "off the face of the Earth" after accusing the US of planning a chemical weapons attack.

In an explosive new report published today, the secretive country has claimed the US is plotting an 'unprecedented disaster' on its nation.

However, the country says it will not remain a 'passive onlooker' - instead vowing to destroy the US, or 'empire of evils', in a catastrophic retaliation.

State newspaper The Rodong Sinmun says: "The DPRK will never remain a passive onlooker to the moves of the U.S. to provoke a biochemical war against it but will conclude the standoff with the U.S., the empire of evils, by wiping it off the face of the Earth.

"The U.S. must not disregard the warning of the DPRK that its reckless military moves would lead to its most miserable final doom."

The report, entitled 'U.S. Biochemical War Plan against Korean Nation under Fire' claimed the US is plotting a chemical weapons attack on the country.

It claimed that evidence had been uncovered suggesting the US transported chemical weapons to the South Korean port city of Busan in preparation for war.

The state newspaper adds: "The U.S. has fully revealed its criminal scenario to make no scruple of using biochemical weapons to exterminate the Korean nation in order to realize its wild ambition for dominating the world.

"Recently, the U.S. is busy floating the wild rumor about "threat from biochemical weapons" of the DPRK. Lurking behind this is its sinister design to secure a pretext for provoking a biochemical war against the DPRK.


Link
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Your claim of using a scientific equation is laughable when all you have done is butcher science to the point it makes 'The Core' look like a fucking documentary. Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24948
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-23 11:43am

North Korea does so much posturing that I'm inclined to say they're always crying wolf....however, the end of that tale is the actual wolf attacking. Here they go again, let's hope this is also a lot of hot air, too. From Reuters:

SEOUL, April 23 (Reuters) - North Korea said on Sunday it was ready to sink a U.S. aircraft carrier to demonstrate its military might, as two Japanese navy ships joined a U.S. carrier group for exercises in the western Pacific.

Oh, goody - DPRK is threatening both the US and Japan. Way to go - then again, if they get both simultaneously then we won't have to have the argument as to whether or not the US is really truly obligated to uphold that promise to defend Japan (I say we are, but it's not like my opinion counts for these things).

U.S. President Donald Trump ordered the USS Carl Vinson carrier strike group to sail to waters off the Korean peninsula in response to rising tension over the North's nuclear and missile tests, and its threats to attack the United States and its Asian allies.

Hmm.... crazy like a fox, put the aircraft carrier group out there as a target instead of a city of civilians? I'd like to think Trump is that smart, but I'm inclined to doubt it.

The United States has not specified where the carrier strike group is as it approaches the area. U.S. Vice President Mike Pence said on Saturday it would arrive "within days" but gave no other details.

Standard operating procedure. Don't give details on the movement of military hardware.

North Korea remained defiant.

Also in the news: water is wet.

"Our revolutionary forces are combat-ready to sink a U.S. nuclear powered aircraft carrier with a single strike," the Rodong Sinmun, the newspaper of the North's ruling Workers' Party, said in a commentary.

The thing is.... they might actually have that capability if they decide it's a good use of a nuke. Assuming the also have the delivery system and the bomb is actually working.

The paper likened the aircraft carrier to a "gross animal" and said a strike on it would be "an actual example to show our military's force."

The commentary was carried on page three of the newspaper, after a two-page feature about leader Kim Jong Un inspecting a pig farm.

North Korea will mark the 85th anniversary of the foundation of its Korean People's Army on Tuesday.

It has in the past marked important anniversaries with tests of its weapons.

North Korea has conducted five nuclear tests, two of them last year, and is working to develop nuclear-tipped missiles that can reach the United States.

It has also carried out a series of ballistic missile tests in defiance of United Nations sanctions.

North Korea's growing nuclear and missile threat is perhaps the most serious security challenge confronting Trump.

Arguably, not just Trump and not just the US but also a lot of other people in the region.

He has vowed to prevent the North from being able to hit the United States with a nuclear missile and has said all options are on the table, including a military strike.

And this worries me - the current White House occupant is also give to bluster and posturing.

WORRY IN JAPAN

North Korea says its nuclear program is for self-defense and has warned the United States of a nuclear attack in response to any aggression. It has also threatened to lay waste to South Korea and Japan.

Er.... what, no reunification with the South? Did I miss the memo or is this a recent/new thing?

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Friday North Korea's recent statements were provocative but had proven to be hollow in the past and should not be trusted.

"We've all come to hear their words repeatedly, their word has not proven honest," Mattis told a news conference in Tel Aviv, before the latest threat to the aircraft carrier.

Yes, we all hope this is just more hot air, but...

Japan's show of naval force reflects growing concern that North Korea could strike it with nuclear or chemical warheads.

Some Japanese ruling party lawmakers are urging Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to acquire strike weapons that could hit North Korean missile forces before any imminent attack.

...it still looks like this is of some concern.

Japan's navy, which is mostly a destroyer fleet, is the second largest in Asia after China's.

The two Japanese warships, the Samidare and Ashigara, left western Japan on Friday to join the Carl Vinson and will "practice a variety of tactics" with the U.S. strike group, the Japan Maritime Self Defence Force said in a statement.

The Japanese force did not specify where the exercises were taking place but by Sunday the destroyers could have reached an area 2,500 km (1,500 miles) south of Japan, which would be waters east of the Philippines.

From there, it could take three days to reach waters off the Korean peninsula. Japan's ships would accompany the Carl Vinson north at least into the East China Sea, a source with knowledge of the plan said.

U.S. and South Korean officials have been saying for weeks that the North could soon stage another nuclear test, something the United States, China and others have warned against.

South Korea has put is forces on heightened alert.

China, North Korea's sole major ally which nevertheless opposes Pyongyang's weapons programs and belligerence, has appealed for calm. The United States has called on China to do more to help defuse the tension.

Last Thursday, Trump praised Chinese efforts to rein in "the menace of North Korea," after North Korean state media warned the United States of a "super-mighty preemptive strike."

Again, fervently hoping this is just more bluster. Probably is. Most likely. Almost certainly.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24948
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-23 09:40pm

North Korea now threatening Australia and New Zealand

I dunno, maybe I should post here on a day that North Korea does NOT threaten another nation...?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
SpottedKitty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 768
Joined: 2014-08-22 08:24pm
Location: UK

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby SpottedKitty » 2017-04-23 09:50pm

Broomstick wrote:North Korea now threatening Australia and New Zealand

I dunno, maybe I should post here on a day that North Korea does NOT threaten another nation...?

At this rate, it's only a matter of time before they break off diplomatic relations with the Dutchy of Grand Fenwick... :wtf:
“Despite rumor, Death isn't cruel — merely terribly, terribly good at his job.”
Terry Pratchett, Sourcery

User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6664
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Isolder74 » 2017-04-23 11:35pm

I'm surprised they haven't declared war with Narnia yet.

But on a serious note, North Korea has a need to shake their rusty saber just to make sure we all know they have a rusty saber.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13938
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Gandalf » 2017-04-23 11:42pm

Isolder74 wrote:I'm surprised they haven't declared war with Narnia yet.

But on a serious note, North Korea has a need to shake their rusty saber just to make sure we all know they have a rusty saber.


Pretty much. They shake the sabre, everyone gets riled up, and maybe a nice aid package quietens tensions. The DPRK eats for another week and everyone else gets a bump in their ratings for looking tough.
"How you wanna raise a flag with a rifle
To make us want to celebrate anything but survival?
Nah, you watching tele for The Bachelor
But wouldn’t read a book about a fuckload of massacres?"

- A.B. Original, January 26

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
FaxModem1
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5963
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-04-24 10:51pm

Yahoo News

Kim Jong-un is starting to get 'very paranoid', UN ambassador warns

Andy WellsYahoo News UKApril 24, 2017

Kim Jong-un is getting “very paranoid”, the US ambassador to the UN has warned amid growing concerns that Donald Trump’s war of words with North Korea could spark a nuclear attack.

In a round of interviews on Monday morning, Nikki Haley did not rule out a pre-emptive strike by the US on Pyongyang if it tests another nuclear device.

Ms Haley also praised China’s involvement in trying to pressure North Korea to cease missile testing.

She also criticised the North Korean leader, Kim Jong Un, as unstable and paranoid.

Ms Haley told NBC’s Today Show that “we are not going to do something unless he gives us reason to do something” – such as attacking a US military base or using an intercontinental ballistic missile”.

When asked what would happen if North Korea tests another missile or nuclear device, Ms Haley told NBC: “I think then the president steps in and decides what’s going to happen.”

“You can see he’s starting to get very paranoid… and we need to keep the pressure up.

“The United States is not looking for a fight – so don’t give us a reason to have one.”

The comments follow warnings that the U.S. faces a potential nuclear attack from North Korea within the next four years, according to Department of Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly.

Mr Kelly warned that the secretive state could attach a nuclear weapon to a missile that has the ability to reach the United States during Donald Trump’s first term as President.

He told CNN: “Clearly, there are countries on the planet that have a lot of nuclear weapons that would overwhelm any defence that we would deploy – Russia, as an example.

Department of Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly warned that North Korea could launch a nuclear strike against the U.S. (YouTube)View photos
Department of Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly warned that North Korea could launch a nuclear strike against the U.S. (YouTube)
More
“But the minute North Korea gets a missile that could reach the United States and put a weapon on that missile, a nuclear weapon, the instant that happens, this country is at grave risk.”

Pressed on how long that would take, Mr Kelly added: “I think Mr Trump will be dealing with this in real terms before he starts his second term.”

Mr Kelly’s warning comes just days after North Korea announced their own warning of a preemptive strike against the U.S. as tensions rise between Pyongyang and Washington.

MORE: Russia sends troops to North Korea border as tensions escalate
MORE: Jeremy Corbyn rules out second Brexit referendum in Labour manifesto

The Rodong Sinmun, the official newspaper of the North’s ruling Workers’ Party, said: “In the case of our super-mighty preemptive strike being launched, it will completely and immediately wipe out not only U.S. imperialists’ invasion forces in South Korea and its surrounding areas but the U.S. mainland and reduce them to ashes.”

U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, recently warned that the “era of strategic patience” with North Korea and its leader, Kim Jong-un, is over, adding that any attack would be met with an “overwhelming response”.


Both China and Russia have moved hundreds of thousands of troops to their North Korean borders.

Moscow’s deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov said of the rising tensions: “Unfortunately, we have to admit that the risk of a serious conflict in this region has substantially increased.”


I really hope this is just saber rattling.
Image

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24948
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-24 11:00pm

If the Norks drop a nuke on the US I know what happens to them... my question is what does everyone else do? in that situation. Do they stand back and say, well, the Norks were fucking stupid to nuke the one country that has a history of using atomic bombs and let the US retaliate without further consequence, or does everything on the planet go to shit?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13938
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Gandalf » 2017-04-24 11:16pm

Broomstick wrote:If the Norks drop a nuke on the US I know what happens to them... my question is what does everyone else do? in that situation. Do they stand back and say, well, the Norks were fucking stupid to nuke the one country that has a history of using atomic bombs and let the US retaliate without further consequence, or does everything on the planet go to shit?


Assuming such a thing happens and the missile doesn't break down over the Pacific, I can't imagine anyone being willing to start WW3 over the DPRK.
"How you wanna raise a flag with a rifle
To make us want to celebrate anything but survival?
Nah, you watching tele for The Bachelor
But wouldn’t read a book about a fuckload of massacres?"

- A.B. Original, January 26

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 24948
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Broomstick » 2017-04-24 11:29pm

Well... how about this question:

North Korea drops a nuke on a country that also has nukes (doesn't have to be the US - could be China, or India, or whatever). Do you think the rest of the world would be OK if the targeted nation retaliates by nuking Pyongyang? Basically a one-for-one retaliation. Do you think it would stop there?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 13938
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Gandalf » 2017-04-25 12:00am

Broomstick wrote:Well... how about this question:

North Korea drops a nuke on a country that also has nukes (doesn't have to be the US - could be China, or India, or whatever). Do you think the rest of the world would be OK if the targeted nation retaliates by nuking Pyongyang? Basically a one-for-one retaliation. Do you think it would stop there?


Assuming any retaliation is 1:1, the DPRK is finished by sunset, and they don't have allies who'll bother to rally to their cause. Things would have to go oddly for it to escalate afterwards, and the more immediate concern for the major powers is deconstructing the remnants of the regime amidst one of the biggest humanitarian crises ever.
"How you wanna raise a flag with a rifle
To make us want to celebrate anything but survival?
Nah, you watching tele for The Bachelor
But wouldn’t read a book about a fuckload of massacres?"

- A.B. Original, January 26

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Master
Posts: 1321
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Esquire » 2017-04-26 10:40pm

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that by longstanding doctrine, the immediate response to any nuclear attack on a nuclear state is going to be immediate full-scale retaliation in order to preserve MAD against gradual erosion; we can not allow nuclear weapons to become an accepted tool of war. So, yes, 1:1, where the first is probably 'a single relatively small bomb,' and the second is 'one North Korea-worth, plus a few more for good measure.'

Politically and diplomatically, I'd expect public point-scoring along with private communications to the effect of 'ignore the statement we'll put out tomorrow; you do what you have to.'
"Statistics mean nothing to the individual." Dr. Perry Cox, Scrubs

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12010
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 12:32am

Broomstick wrote:Well... how about this question:

North Korea drops a nuke on a country that also has nukes (doesn't have to be the US - could be China, or India, or whatever). Do you think the rest of the world would be OK if the targeted nation retaliates by nuking Pyongyang? Basically a one-for-one retaliation. Do you think it would stop there?


Some sort of nuclear retaliation is, sadly, virtually inevitable, or the entire doctrine of MAD pretty much breaks down.

Personally, while I'm obviously not at all an expert on nuclear policy, I'd prefer tactical nukes on the fortifications along the DMZ. It is the most heavily fortified border in the world, correct, and that seems about as close to a legitimate target for nukes as we are ever going to get. And a way to satisfy the demand for a nuclear retaliation without straying into the borderline genocidal territory of nuking a civilian city.

But if you remember the public reaction to major terrorist attacks, especially after 911, and then factor in the likely far higher death toll and cultural terror around nukes, I fully expect that their would be overwhelming public pressure demanding the outright extermination of the North Korean people, and anyone who even vaguely appeared to be supporting them, as horrible as that is. Such that I doubt a President who refused nuclear retaliation against the civilian populace could long remain in power.

Maybe that's just me being cynical, but I remember seeing people on TV after 911 saying things like we should bomb Mecca, and this would probably be far worse.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

Ralin
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2157
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Ralin » 2017-04-27 03:15am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Some sort of nuclear retaliation is, sadly, virtually inevitable, or the entire doctrine of MAD pretty much breaks down.


Didn't MKSheppard make a fairly long effortpost once about how MAD has never, ever been actual US military policy and that the plan has always been to win a nuclear war if it comes to it?

There are a whole lot of options for destroying a nuke-hurling North Korean government and military that don't require the literal destruction of North Korean society. The people in charge of our military know this and whatever the policies on paper are I'm not convinced they'll feel the need to 'make an example' of North Korea the way some people are suggesting. Bomb them, sure. Drop some nukes of our own, possibly. But there would be long-term consequences to turning North Korea into literal bombed out radioactive refugee land, and the benefits of it would be a little dubious. I mean, clearly MAD didn't work well enough to stop this from happening in the first place, and irrational or just plain bad decision-makers are always going to make bad or irrational decisions no matter how obviously dumb they should be.

Obviously this is with the disclaimer that Trump is president, but meh. Still.

But if you remember the public reaction to major terrorist attacks, especially after 911, and then factor in the likely far higher death toll and cultural terror around nukes, I fully expect that their would be overwhelming public pressure demanding the outright extermination of the North Korean people, and anyone who even vaguely appeared to be supporting them, as horrible as that is. Such that I doubt a President who refused nuclear retaliation against the civilian populace could long remain in power.

Maybe that's just me being cynical, but I remember seeing people on TV after 911 saying things like we should bomb Mecca, and this would probably be far worse.


Yeah, and I also remember those people being shouted down. And even when Bush launched multiple stupid wars it was with the stated goal of liberating oppressed Muslims and stopping the bad ones (honestly I think there's more Islamophobia in America now than in the year after 9/11). War of extermination was never seriously talked about by anyone in a position of authority.

I mean, yeah, again, Trump is president, but he hasn't literally declared he intends to rid the Earth of Muslims either, so let's not exaggerate how different things are.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12010
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 03:28am

My point is, their was a not inconsiderable amount of public sentiment in the direction of a brutal retaliation against civilians. They didn't win the day, they didn't even really come close, but an actual use of a nuclear weapon would be on a whole new level of horror from even 911. So I'm worried that, if that happened, they might not be shouted down.

Hopefully they would be. But we really don't have a precedent for how a nation reacts to nuclear weapons being used in war, other than Japan, which was a nation that was effectively crushed and had no means to retaliate in kind, at a time when the effects of nuclear weapons were not as well-understood.

This is almost a... what's the phrase... outside context problem? Sure, its something that's been theorized about, but there is no real-world precedent for it, thank God.

And yes, Trump actually makes W. look like a statesman, almost.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

Ralin
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2157
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby Ralin » 2017-04-27 04:36am

The Romulan Republic wrote:This is almost a... what's the phrase... outside context problem? Sure, its something that's been theorized about, but there is no real-world precedent for it, thank God.


That's pretty much what I was getting at.

My point is, their was a not inconsiderable amount of public sentiment in the direction of a brutal retaliation against civilians. They didn't win the day, they didn't even really come close, but an actual use of a nuclear weapon would be on a whole new level of horror from even 911. So I'm worried that, if that happened, they might not be shouted down.


I think you maybe overestimate exactly how much the American public would care about South Korea or Tokyo being nuked. The fact that a bunch of DA TROOPS would presumably be on the casualty list would affect that, but I mean... how often do you hear people talking about how cowardly and evil bin Laden was for bombing the Pentagon?

Let's also bear in mind that there's probably a substantial overlap between Trump supporters and People Who Don't Much Care About Foreigners Getting Nuked.

If nothing else a "bomb the fuck out of North Korea with conventional weapons" strategy would probably be easier for Trump to order and have carried out. Anyone (who is head of a country with nuclear) can order cities nuked. 'Just' bombing the crap out of the would make Trump look way more American Strong.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12010
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: General North Korea thread

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-04-27 04:40am

Yeah. Probably.

If a nuclear power was nuked (be it America or any other), though, I'd half-expect a retaliation more brutal and more absolute than any other in modern history.

And even a nuclear bombing of South Korea or Japan could, yes, result in large numbers (as in thousands) of Americans being killed.

Edit: Which, minus the fact that it wasn't a strike on American soil and adding the hysteria around nuclear weapons, would put it in the same range as Pearl Harbour and 911 in terms of American deaths.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.


Return to “News and Politics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests