Russian Ambassador Slams Wartime Rape Sculpture

[Kitsune]

Thoughts
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 28492.html

he brief appearance of a concrete sculpture in Gdansk last Saturday depicting a Red Army soldier raping a pregnant woman has sparked ire on both the Polish and Russian sides. Now the artist could be facing two years in prison.

He wanted to depict the tragedy and "the whole suffering" of rape victims. But now Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk is facing up to two years in prison. Prosecutors have launched an investigation into a possible charge of inciting racial or national hatred against the 26-year-old artist, even though his concrete sculpture was only in place for one night. It was erected without permission in the northern port city of Gdansk next to a Soviet tank, a communist-era memorial to Red Army soldiers who liberated the city from Nazi forces in 1945.

ANZEIGE
The reason for the heated reaction is the theme of Szumczyk's life-sized sculpture: It shows a soldier -- identifiable as Russian by his helmet -- kneeling between the legs of a heavily pregnant woman lying on the ground. He is holding her hair in his left hand as he puts a pistol into her mouth with his right. The title of the piece, "Komm, Frau," is a German phrase meaning "Come, woman."

Police removed the sculpture just a few hours later -- but the deed had already been done. According to the English-language Moscow Times, Russia's ambassador in Warsaw, Alexander Alexeyev, said he was "deeply outraged" and that Szumczyk had "defiled by his pseudo-art the memory of 600,000 Soviet servicemen who gave their lives in the fight for the freedom and the independence of Poland." Alexeyev also called for an "appropriate reaction" from Polish authorities.

The incident has stirred up much controversy in the media and on Internet forums. One person wrote that the sculpture is not an insult to Russian soldiers, but a silent scream of the victim. Others emphasized that sexual violence had occurred on all sides, and not just in World War II.

Journalist Marek Gorlikowski also spoke out critically in a commentary for the Polish daily Gazeta Wyborcza, writing: "Such a monument is absolutely not the way to commemorate the victims of rape." A proper memorial should be established, he added, perhaps at the Museum of World War II in Gdansk, but such nighttime happenings do not do them justice.

Soviet soldiers' rape of women was especially frequent in the last months of the war, although exact figures are unknown. In Gdansk, the victims were largely made up of German women as well as Russians and Poles who had been Nazi prisoners. Before the war, the free city of Gdansk -- or Danzig, in German -- had a mostly German population. In Russia, discussing the crimes of the Red Army during World War II has remained largely taboo.

Not "graphic" but "disturbing" Spoiler

[krakonfour]

Freedom of speech, yes, but freedom to depict rape publicly, without the option to 'not see it'?

[Thanas]

I don't know the artist but as long as he is not trying to validate Nazi ideologies or revanchism it is not a bad thing to highlight the atrocities committed during the Russian occupations. Admittedly that is a very fine line but I would have to know more about his other works to form judgement. Any of the polish speakers here know this guy?

[Forgothrax]

I fail to see the problem with portraying the nasty side of war, the one that people don't think about.

[Iroscato]

I fail to see the problem with portraying the nasty side of war, the one that people don't think about.

Plenty of people do think about it though. It's one thing to teach about such horrific events in schools, or describe them in documentaries. It's a fairly different thing altogether to actually build a fucking statue of it in a public place. It's too far, even if it had a noble or well-meaning intent.

[SMJB]

I fail to see the problem with portraying the nasty side of war, the one that people don't think about.

Plenty of people do think about it though. It's one thing to teach about such horrific events in schools, or describe them in documentaries. It's a fairly different thing altogether to actually build a fucking statue of it in a public place. It's too far, even if it had a noble or well-meaning intent.

Do they think about it, though? In my school classes the Eastern Front of WWII was barely even touched upon. The article just said that discussing Soviet war crimes was taboo in Russia, so I doubt their history books paint a particularly nuanced picture, either.

As for the location, people don't have a right to not be offended, you know.

[Iroscato]

I fail to see the problem with portraying the nasty side of war, the one that people don't think about.

Plenty of people do think about it though. It's one thing to teach about such horrific events in schools, or describe them in documentaries. It's a fairly different thing altogether to actually build a fucking statue of it in a public place. It's too far, even if it had a noble or well-meaning intent.

Do they think about it, though? In my school classes the Eastern Front of WWII was barely even touched upon. The article just said that discussing Soviet war crimes was taboo in Russia, so I doubt their history books paint a particularly nuanced picture, either.

As for the location, people don't have a right to not be offended, you know.

Ok, well I guess I'm just talking from my own experience and from speaking with my own friends and family (especially my dad, he knows a hell of a lot about the World Wars. I admit I learnt more from outside school than within, but IMO it still doesn't excuse building a statue depicting rape. Such imagery should not be out in public; and I say that being fully aware of the weight of the subject. I KNOW it was an utterly despairing time, and the most horrific acts imaginable played out across the world, but it's totally the wrong way to go about teaching people about it.

[Thanas]

Is it any more horrifying than showing gas chambers, or mountains of human hair? Is it more horrific than showing lampshades made out of human skin?

Because all of those are shown in museums on the topic of WWII. Compared to that, this is small cakes.

[Forgothrax]

I was mostly speaking from my experience growing up in a solidly red-Republican area. People around here at least don't really seem to understand the consequences unless they're personal ones (lose a friend or family member). In that case, I don't see anything wrong with reminding people bluntly of the facts.

[Kitsune]

Ok, well I guess I'm just talking from my own experience and from speaking with my own friends and family (especially my dad, he knows a hell of a lot about the World Wars. I admit I learnt more from outside school than within, but IMO it still doesn't excuse building a statue depicting rape. Such imagery should not be out in public; and I say that being fully aware of the weight of the subject. I KNOW it was an utterly despairing time, and the most horrific acts imaginable played out across the world, but it's totally the wrong way to go about teaching people about it.

Various Holocaust memorials (Some may be repeats from other sides)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... lorida.jpg
http://0.tqn.com/d/sanfrancisco/1/0/9/9 ... orial2.jpg
http://www.monumentcity.org/wp-content/ ... ore-md.jpg
http://photos.viczhang.com/images/20060 ... morial.jpg
http://www.publicartinla.com/other_citi ... morial.jpg
http://www.counter-currents.com/wp-cont ... morial.jpg

Should all these be removed because they are disturbing?

[krakonfour]

Is it any more horrifying than showing gas chambers, or mountains of human hair? Is it more horrific than showing lampshades made out of human skin?

Because all of those are shown in museums on the topic of WWII. Compared to that, this is small cakes.

When you go to a WWII museum or go to visit a war memorial, you are willingly subjecting yourself to any imagery the site wishes to use.

When you're walking with your kids down the street and see a rape statue, it is within your right to ask it to be removed.
Or maybe you prefer we include pornography in our commercials and rape attacks on reality TV shows because an unsuspecting audience doesn't have the right to not see such things?

[Thanas]

Is it any more horrifying than showing gas chambers, or mountains of human hair? Is it more horrific than showing lampshades made out of human skin?

Because all of those are shown in museums on the topic of WWII. Compared to that, this is small cakes.

When you go to a WWII museum or go to visit a war memorial, you are willingly subjecting yourself to any imagery the site wishes to use.

And when you walk down a street where you know such a statue is situated at then this is true as well.

[krakonfour]

Is it any more horrifying than showing gas chambers, or mountains of human hair? Is it more horrific than showing lampshades made out of human skin?

Because all of those are shown in museums on the topic of WWII. Compared to that, this is small cakes.

When you go to a WWII museum or go to visit a war memorial, you are willingly subjecting yourself to any imagery the site wishes to use.

And when you walk down a street where you know such a statue is situated at then this is true as well.

So according to you, everyone walking down that street knows that a statue like that, stealthily installed during the night, would be situated there, and that everyone on that street willingly sees the statue, not because they have to be there for some other reason?

[Irbis]

It shows a soldier -- identifiable as Russian by his helmet

I love this part. "Identifiable" despite the fact half million strong Polish eastern army also used this model of helmet. Albeit I have little doubt it was work of your run of the mill Russophobe that didn't even stopped to consider that

I don't know the artist but as long as he is not trying to validate Nazi ideologies or revanchism it is not a bad thing to highlight the atrocities committed during the Russian occupations. Admittedly that is a very fine line but I would have to know more about his other works to form judgement.

'Atrocities'. By which you mean less than 1% of what happened east of Odra, acts for which Soviet soldiers could be shot, and something that wasn't official policy unlike what was being done by poor Ubermenshen that found themselves completely by accident near Volga.

Okay, how about we keep this monument, but to keep things in proportion we erect one depicting Wehrmacht soldier, only fifty times as large, right in the middle of Berlin? Oh, wait, I forgot that actually remembering what happened before 1945 isn't cool anymore. Everyone knows that real atrocities happened after that date, am I right?

Any of the polish speakers here know this guy?

Why would we know him? Age indicates it is just freshly out of uni no name.

When you're walking with your kids down the street and see a rape statue, it is within your right to ask it to be removed.
Or maybe you prefer we include pornography in our commercials and rape attacks on reality TV shows because an unsuspecting audience doesn't have the right to not see such things?

Side note here, shock pictures are actually common tactic by mindless Polish right wingers. For example, anti-abortion side here loves to erect extremely graphic banners depicting it whenever they feel they can

Is it any more horrifying than showing gas chambers, or mountains of human hair? Is it more horrific than showing lampshades made out of human skin?

Because all of those are shown in museums on the topic of WWII. Compared to that, this is small cakes.

So, we should erect monument glorifying Germans fallen in Warsaw Ghetto fighting in 1943? That is small cakes, too, and if taken completely out of context, is surely as big of tragedy as above, no?

Or if you want example of oh so poor civilians, how about documenting the plight of German colonists in Zamość Uprising? These dastardly Poles, showing no respect to innocent people only fulfilling Generalplan Ost!

[Irbis]

Update: I checked, the guy despite age is apparently still art student, also charges about hate crimes were dropped, he might still get charges about disturbing public order, though.

And to keep things in perspective, this happened right next to building bearing this plaque: [link]. Now, that would be a kickass shock monument topic had we had something to prove, sadly we have mostly clean conscience so that small tablet sufficed.

[Thanas]

Okay, how about we keep this monument, but to keep things in proportion we erect one depicting Wehrmacht soldier, only fifty times as large, right in the middle of Berlin? Oh, wait, I forgot that actually remembering what happened before 1945 isn't cool anymore. Everyone knows that real atrocities happened after that date, am I right?

The holocaust memorial is right next to the Reichstag. The holocaust and WWII are overrepresented in German society. I'd wager we Germans are probably the best educated in the whole world in what we did wrong. You have no case.

Also, last I checked no German is associated with this project. Are you projecting again?

So, we should erect monument glorifying Germans fallen in Warsaw Ghetto fighting in 1943? That is small cakes, too, and if taken completely out of context, is surely as big of tragedy as above, no?

You still got Nazi soldiers killing civilians so why would you want to glorify the soldiers?

Or if you want example of oh so poor civilians, how about documenting the plight of German colonists in Zamość Uprising? These dastardly Poles, showing no respect to innocent people only fulfilling Generalplan Ost!

Yes, because resisting ethnic cleansing is the same thing as committing atrocities among the conquered

So according to you, everyone walking down that street knows that a statue like that, stealthily installed during the night, would be situated there, and that everyone on that street willingly sees the statue, not because they have to be there for some other reason?

The same is true for every other memorial. What do you think precludes rape victims from getting the same spotlight as other victim groups?

[Siege]

In my opinion we could all do with a whole bunch more memorials depicting the horrors of war in all their disgusting repugnance. Yes, the Nazis were shockingly barbaric, but the sooner we also show the instances where the victors perpetrated utterly heinous shit the sooner we can hopefully get over the mistaken perception that war is a false dillemma in which once we designate one side as the bad guys the other team can do no wrong. Case in point: the Russian ambassador talking without even a trace of irony about how Soviet servicemen fought for "the freedom and the independence of Poland" which of course has completely nothing to do with the reality we all actually inhabit, that being one in which the Soviet Union invaded Poland in '39 and was also directly responsible for the country's post-war woes.

War isn't a rousing boys book. It's ugly as hell, people die and heinous shit happens in warzones all the time, and hopefully if we accept that this is true we'll be less likely to be spoiling for a fight in the future. It's been sixty-seven years, everybody who's got any sense at all knows the Third Reich was bad, so please stop making excuses for the malignant character of war. War is a failure and breakdown of civilization, it's time we start treating it as such.

[Irbis]

The holocaust memorial is right next to the Reichstag. The holocaust and WWII are overrepresented in German society. I'd wager we Germans are probably the best educated in the whole world in what we did wrong. You have no case.

No no no, I am not speaking about the Holocaust. I am speaking about everyday crimes committed by occupying army. That's what we were talking about here - not big, organized crimes, but atmosphere of suffering of common people. Have any museums for these?

In a sense, Holocaust is convenient. You can drop one plaque covering it and say 'done', as you do, it keeps overshadowing everything else so forgetting it is easy.

Also, last I checked no German is associated with this project. Are you projecting again?

If, as you claim, educated, intelligent German such as you offers big support I don't even have to project what the reaction of deniers and neo-Nazi would be. Am I wrong?

Also, simply by existing neo-Nazis show the education seems to be lacking, isn't it?

You still got Nazi soldiers killing civilians so why would you want to glorify the soldiers?

Oh, it we forgot everything about circumstances, every human death is a tragedy, isn't?

Leaving aside what happened on Eastern front for four previous years, remind me, what happened every time - in Roman, in Medieval, and in modern times when walled city choose to not surrender and defended itself to last man? The response was invariably the same, conquerors after finally getting it let the pent up frustration on the civilians.

Somehow, every time 'atrocities' in fighting over Pommern/Konigsberg/Berlin are mentioned, no one mentions Die Pommernstellung or systems of cities-Festungs, which were such fortresses taken a notch up. Why, if people discussing it want to be honest?

Yes, because resisting ethnic cleansing is the same thing as committing atrocities among the conquered

Oh, these civilians were doing no cleansing. IMHO, the situation was exactly identical, civilians of attacking side suffering consequences of their troops military failures.

You know, in my home city, there is art gallery. If you look, you can't shake the feeling it has wrong shape for it. It's because in 1939, it used to be a synagogue - serving city where 55% of population were Jews. Now, the share is about 0.01%. These people have no monuments because there was no one left alive to make any. Hell, much of their history were lost, too, simply because there were no witnesses left to pass it. If there is some victim worth honouring or remembering, it's they, yet beside handful of Poles no one does.

IMHO, Germans have right to speak about their victims, right after they make even tiniest, most token gesture of honouring not even every of their victims, just every city in which they lived. Since that doesn't seem to be happening, let me play the world's tiniest violin honouring their plight.

The same is true for every other memorial. What do you think precludes rape victims from getting the same spotlight as other victim groups?

Maybe the fact victims of actions that directly precluded these, actions that culminated eventually in these rapes, don't get any?

Also, you spoke about excellent German holocaust guilt knowledge. Care to tell me why then, when one honest German journalist wanted to check how the closure of German war crimes really looks like, he barely scratched the surface and found 50 Auschwitz war criminals in really short time this year?

Not just any heroic soldier that happened to 'accidentally' kill several dozen civilians, real, genuine death camp personnel that no one bothered to do anything about, in the dozens. Gee, I wonder how anyone can doubt flawless German commitment to wash away guilt after this, must be beam in the eye thing or something.

Also, something that was always bothering me in school, discrepancy between pre-war Poland population and post war one, when you look at number of victims. It was something you didn't spoke loudly about, as the state couldn't do anything about it without angering 'brotherly' East Germany (or West one, for that matter) but most recent studies show about 800 thousand to two million of children Nazi deemed Aryan material were abducted to Germany, and only 1/3 to 1/5 of these ever returned home, thanks both to obstructionism of Allied occupation authorities to 'evil' socialist Poles, then after 1949 by wholesale obstructionism and whitewashing of the Germans supported by border closure. Tell me, do these victims of war, torn from families and even today living barely (if at all) familiar what happened to them, have any museums? If the topic is largely forgotten even here, I really wonder how it looks from the perspective of someone who really doesn't want to remember.

[Thanas]

The holocaust memorial is right next to the Reichstag. The holocaust and WWII are overrepresented in German society. I'd wager we Germans are probably the best educated in the whole world in what we did wrong. You have no case.

No no no, I am not speaking about the Holocaust. I am speaking about everyday crimes committed by occupying army. That's what we were talking about here - not big, organized crimes, but atmosphere of suffering of common people. Have any museums for these?

Sure, every museum that covers WWII talks about it, there also was a humongous exhibition devoted only to the crimes of the occupying army. Again, you have no case.

If, as you claim, educated, intelligent German such as you offers big support I don't even have to project what the reaction of deniers and neo-Nazi would be. Am I wrong?

Why should their opinions matter? Should we also cater to the catholic church, which is a far bigger group, when it comes to science museums?

Also, simply by existing neo-Nazis show the education seems to be lacking, isn't it?

No, you always get idiots.

Oh, it we forgot everything about circumstances, every human death is a tragedy, isn't?

The death of people who shoot civilians on purpose when the civilians fight back is not something that is a particular tragedy. Are you saying it is?

Leaving aside what happened on Eastern front for four previous years, remind me, what happened every time - in Roman, in Medieval, and in modern times when walled city choose to not surrender and defended itself to last man? The response was invariably the same, conquerors after finally getting it let the pent up frustration on the civilians.

So what? We already have memorials to them. We keep the memory of the 30 years war intact. We have exhibitions, movies, plays etc. I fail to see why this precludes some other victims of war getting commemoration.

Somehow, every time 'atrocities' in fighting over Pommern/Konigsberg/Berlin are mentioned, no one mentions Die Pommernstellung or systems of cities-Festungs, which were such fortresses taken a notch up. Why, if people discussing it want to be honest?

The Pommernstellung is irrelevant but city-fortresses are talked about a lot. It may just be your perception is lacking?

Oh, these civilians were doing no cleansing. IMHO, the situation was exactly identical, civilians of attacking side suffering consequences of their troops military failures.

Then I am sure they are remembered and if not you are welcome to claim that they should be.

You know, in my home city, there is art gallery. If you look, you can't shake the feeling it has wrong shape for it. It's because in 1939, it used to be a synagogue - serving city where 55% of population were Jews. Now, the share is about 0.01%. These people have no monuments because there was no one left alive to make any. Hell, much of their history were lost, too, simply because there were no witnesses left to pass it. If there is some victim worth honouring or remembering, it's they, yet beside handful of Poles no one does.

...and the numerous commemorations in Germany, of course. How nice of you to forget these. Also, you are swerving wildly. First, you claim making holocaust memorials is wrong, then you say there are not enough. Make up your mind.

IMHO, Germans have right to speak about their victims, right after they make even tiniest, most token gesture of honouring not even every of their victims, just every city in which they lived. Since that doesn't seem to be happening, let me play the world's tiniest violin honouring their plight.

Again, your perception of what we Germans remember is lacking.

Maybe the fact victims of actions that directly precluded these, actions that culminated eventually in these rapes, don't get any?

No, victims of German aggression never get any recognition. Nope. Not ever. Are you just that ignorant or stupid?

Also, why are you talking about German crimes or German remembrance when last I checked this happened in a polish city, by a polish artist? Get your own house in order.

Also, you spoke about excellent German holocaust guilt knowledge. Care to tell me why then, when one honest German journalist wanted to check how the closure of German war crimes really looks like, he barely scratched the surface and found 50 Auschwitz war criminals in really short time this year?

Your own article quite aptly explained why. It in no way has any impact on the holocaust museum.

Also, something that was always bothering me in school, discrepancy between pre-war Poland population and post war one, when you look at number of victims. It was something you didn't spoke loudly about, as the state couldn't do anything about it without angering 'brotherly' East Germany (or West one, for that matter) but most recent studies show about 800 thousand to two million of children Nazi deemed Aryan material were abducted to Germany, and only 1/3 to 1/5 of these ever returned home, thanks both to obstructionism of Allied occupation authorities to 'evil' socialist Poles, then after 1949 by wholesale obstructionism and whitewashing of the Germans supported by border closure. Tell me, do these victims of war, torn from families and even today living barely (if at all) familiar what happened to them, have any museums?

I honestly don't know. I suppose they might be covered by some exhibitions covering the Nazi youth programs. If not, I agree that maybe they deserve their own special exhibition as well. But why does this in any case or form invalidate remembering other victims as well?

Hey, I mean, Katyn should be forgotten under your argument as well. After all, those who died there all died from Russian occupational forces and after all, those are not worth remembering according to you.

If the topic is largely forgotten even here, I really wonder how it looks from the perspective of someone who really doesn't want to remember.

If Germany does not want to remember, why are we spending a quarter of history teaching in our schools on something that is maybe 0.000001% of German history? If we do not want to remember, why are we spending the most in constructing memorials dedicated to Nazi victims?

And again, why do you feel the need to attack Germany over a Polish statute in a Polish city made by a Polish artist? Which, last I checked, also commemorates the Polish victims?

[krakonfour]

Urgh, this is confusing. I just said that rape shouldn't get publicly displayed, and now we're discussing Nazi war crimes?

[Beowulf]

Freedom of speech, yes, but freedom to depict rape publicly, without the option to 'not see it'?

You do not have a right to not be offended. The fact that you think you do offends me, and would therefore be against my right not to be offended, if such a right existed.

[krakonfour]

Freedom of speech, yes, but freedom to depict rape publicly, without the option to 'not see it'?

You do not have a right to not be offended. The fact that you think you do offends me, and would therefore be against my right not to be offended, if such a right existed.

I believe I have the right not to see a rape scene. It doesn't matter if I'm offended or not, that's a personal matter.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

The equivocation of so many things as "offensive" as if the word "fuck" and a depiction of rape, or a visible breast and bigoted statements, are at all comparable is one of the more unfortunate aspects of current English dialogue.

I suppose if a rape victim is triggered from stumbling upon that sculpture and goes into a panic attack, well, too bad they shouldn't dare hope to not be "offended" right (says the straight white cis male :L) ??

[Thanas]

These are valid objections but still, the risk of triggering panic attacks should not override the right of art to exist. Given how prevalent description of rapes are in mass media I don't think why this objection should stand.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'm not saying it's an ironclad reason to tear it down. I'm just immensely opposed to the idea that "offensive" is a homogeneous thing, with people thinking that stuff that actually has real effect is the same as swear words or something like that.