Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christians

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Broomstick » 2013-06-17 06:46am

Thanas wrote:So they'd gas their own people after somehow getting their hands on chemical weapons? How likely do you think that is?
As noted, it doesn't have to be their own people they gas - there are multiple factions at work here. It might also involve false evidence, though I don't personally know how one would go about producing such evidence. Maybe empty out such a container then producing it as evidence of an attack, along with contaminated soil samples?

As for attacking their own - there are some really sick, fucked up puppies out there. It's a possibility one would hope is rare, unlikely, and not happening. Probably such a target would be a subset of the faction seen as unreliable, traitors, or somehow troublesome so as to kill two birds with one stone. It's not beyond the realm of possible human atrocities.

Just to emphasize - I mention this as a possibility. I am not aware of any such deception going on at present.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Thanas » 2013-06-17 09:12am

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:So they'd gas their own people after somehow getting their hands on chemical weapons? How likely do you think that is?
As noted, it doesn't have to be their own people they gas - there are multiple factions at work here. It might also involve false evidence, though I don't personally know how one would go about producing such evidence. Maybe empty out such a container then producing it as evidence of an attack, along with contaminated soil samples?

As for attacking their own - there are some really sick, fucked up puppies out there. It's a possibility one would hope is rare, unlikely, and not happening. Probably such a target would be a subset of the faction seen as unreliable, traitors, or somehow troublesome so as to kill two birds with one stone. It's not beyond the realm of possible human atrocities.

Just to emphasize - I mention this as a possibility. I am not aware of any such deception going on at present.
How high do you think this possibility is and on what evidence do you think it even remotely possible?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Broomstick » 2013-06-17 10:29am

I guess you missed the part where I said I have no personal knowledge of any such thing? I only included it in every post I made about the possibility. It's speculation. Shit like that has happened in the past, we even have the term "false flag" to describe the practice, and it's possible. Deception is a common strategy in warfare and I see no reason to trust any party to the mess in Syria, whether outside powers contemplating intervention or internal factions. Claims of WMD, NBC weapons, or various atrocities should be independently verified whenever possible. I, for one, do not want a repeat of some of the 20th Century episodes, such as when the US armed the Taliban and their allies to oppose the Soviet interests in Afghanistan only to have that come back and bite us on the ass a decade or so later.

Which, again, was why it was fucking stupid for Obama to state where the lines were drawn for US intervention. It puts us in a very bad position. He could have just said "chemical weapons are unacceptable" and left it at that.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Thanas » 2013-06-17 12:10pm

Broomstick wrote:I guess you missed the part where I said I have no personal knowledge of any such thing?
So...thanks for wasting my time, I guess. Here I thought we were talking about something that is actually relevant to the topic at hand, not "ZOMG HINDENBURG WAS A TOTAL NAZI FALSE FLAG OPERATION" level type of conspiracy theories. I mean, the theory that a rebel group somehow got its hands on chemical weapons and didn't use it to help themselves survive but rather to gas its allies is so far out there it is not even worth discussing without having something to fall back on.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 27004
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Broomstick » 2013-06-17 02:43pm

Oh, please - they don't need to "gas their allies", they can gas another faction and blame it on Assad, fake evidence, use a "friendly fire" incident against an enemy while simultaneously deflecting criticism from themselves, or something else I haven't thought of. I can only assume the military considers these possibilities rather than go off half-cocked at the first fragment of evidence. If I can come up with these notions surely others already have done so. Hell, it might even another instance of faked evidence on the part of the US government to justify US involvement.

Apparently the evidence relies on contaminated blood, urine, and clothing samples, samples whose chain of custody the Russians are questioning. The French seem to think it's legitimate evidence, I haven't been able to get a grasp on what the UK thinks but the BBC has raised the point that either or both/several sides may have used it. Sarin does not require government-level resources to synthesize and deploy (Aum Shinrikyo, a small Japanese religious group, deployed it twice, once in 1994 and again in 1995) and amounts so far detected, if the detection has been accurate, are very small. Not all claimed attacks have produced evidence of such attacks. While the US government now seems certain about this I'm not entirely convinced but I'll be the first to admit I don't have direct access to any of the evidence.

I'm just suspicious that Obama drew a line in the sand then suddenly evidence of crossing that line turns up. It's also sort of an issue that both the UK and France have more or less promised they would do something if real evidence turned up of chemical weapon use. So now several governments are on the spot, although it appears all of them are reluctant to actually commit to aid, and maybe are sure which group(s) they want to aid. After all, as flawed as Assad may be he is not the worst of all possible rulers. It would be tragic if he's replaced with someone worse.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18060
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by Rogue 9 » 2013-06-17 10:54pm

Broomstick wrote:Hell, it might even another instance of faked evidence on the part of the US government to justify US involvement.
Except that the U.S. government seems to desperately not want to get directly involved.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
thejester
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1811
Joined: 2005-06-10 07:16pm
Location: Richard Nixon's Secret Tapes Club Band

Re: Obama the Clueless backs the murderers of Syrian Christi

Post by thejester » 2013-06-18 12:01am

Wait, you mean to tell me the US is backing potentially unsavoury Sunnis against Shia in order to thwart Iranian regional ambitions? This is indeed a radical departure from the foreign policy norm. Fucking Obama!
Image
I love the smell of September in the morning. Once we got off at Richmond, walked up to the 'G, and there was no game on. Not one footballer in sight. But that cut grass smell, spring rain...it smelt like victory.

Dynamic. When [Kuznetsov] decided he was going to make a difference, he did it...Like Ovechkin...then you find out - he's with Washington too? You're kidding.
- Ron Wilson

Post Reply