Shooting discussion devolves

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Shooting discussion devolves

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 03:32pm

So correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

Man in China attacks kids at a school with a knife, 22 wounded, no fatalities.

Man in Connecticut attacks kids at school with gun, 27 fatalities and more wounded.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2012-12-14 03:36pm

Havok wrote:So correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

Man in China attacks kids at a school with a knife, 22 wounded, no fatalities.

Man in Connecticut attacks kids at school with gun, 27 fatalities and more wounded.
Man in Michigan attacks kids at school with bomb, 45 fatalities and more wounded.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 03:40pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Havok wrote:So correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

Man in China attacks kids at a school with a knife, 22 wounded, no fatalities.

Man in Connecticut attacks kids at school with gun, 27 fatalities and more wounded.
Man in Michigan attacks kids at school with bomb, 45 fatalities and more wounded.
Agreed, so what you are saying is that items that are specifically designed to kill people are very good at it. Thanks, that is my point.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2012-12-14 03:43pm

Havok wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Havok wrote:So correct me if I'm wrong here, but...

Man in China attacks kids at a school with a knife, 22 wounded, no fatalities.

Man in Connecticut attacks kids at school with gun, 27 fatalities and more wounded.
Man in Michigan attacks kids at school with bomb, 45 fatalities and more wounded.
Agreed, so what you are saying is that items that are specifically designed to kill people are very good at it. Thanks, that is my point.
No, I'm saying that your snide little gun control advocacy clip/troll attempt founders on the fact that if this guy had used a truck bomb twice as many people could be dead.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2012-12-14 03:49pm

And you know the problem with people like you Havok is that you're not actually trying to have a debate over gun control, you're just trying to start a flamewar over it because you enjoy watching it happen.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by weemadando » 2012-12-14 03:53pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Havok wrote: Agreed, so what you are saying is that items that are specifically designed to kill people are very good at it. Thanks, that is my point.
No, I'm saying that your snide little gun control advocacy clip/troll attempt founders on the fact that if this guy had used a truck bomb twice as many people could be dead.
And if he'd used a B-52 he could have killed the whole town!

Congratulations, you're an idiot.

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2012-12-14 03:55pm

weemadando wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Havok wrote: Agreed, so what you are saying is that items that are specifically designed to kill people are very good at it. Thanks, that is my point.
No, I'm saying that your snide little gun control advocacy clip/troll attempt founders on the fact that if this guy had used a truck bomb twice as many people could be dead.
And if he'd used a B-52 he could have killed the whole town!

Congratulations, you're an idiot.
Now you think you can get the flamewar actually going by attacking me to really rev up the fun and games. Okay, I'm out of the thread for the duration.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Dark Hellion » 2012-12-14 04:20pm

20 children are dead and you fucks actually take your time to make troll posts... fuck off Havok and Wee and all the gun control shitposts its just ghoulish at this point.

I had to tell my mother not to watch the news because I know this is going to make her break down crying. This is tragic to the point that there aren't words.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by weemadando » 2012-12-14 04:24pm

Yes, those of us who go "maybe if there wasn't easy access to guns, this mightn't have been as bad" we're the terrible ones here.

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 04:33pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Havok wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Man in Michigan attacks kids at school with bomb, 45 fatalities and more wounded.
Agreed, so what you are saying is that items that are specifically designed to kill people are very good at it. Thanks, that is my point.
No, I'm saying that your snide little gun control advocacy clip/troll attempt founders on the fact that if this guy had used a truck bomb twice as many people could be dead.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:And you know the problem with people like you Havok is that you're not actually trying to have a debate over gun control, you're just trying to start a flamewar over it because you enjoy watching it happen.
Go fuck yourself. There is no "debate" about gun control. There is a propaganda campaign about gun control. Pro-Gun "advocates" like you use the retarded as fuck, "well I could kill that many people with a baseball bat but you aren't trying to ban those hur hur."
The difference being that a baseball bat was created to hit baseballs. What is a gun created for?

I can kill you with fucking underwear, but it was made to support my balls. What is a gun made to do?

Do people kill people? Yes. Does incredibly easy access to a massive overabundance of guns make it ten million times fucking easier? You bet your fucking ass it does.

And you know, I'm all for guns. I'm all for people having as many guns as they fucking want. I have a gun, and I keep it on me almost all the time. Pretty much every person in my life has a gun and also keeps it on them a good proportion of the time. But that is an escalation issue, not advocacy. My problem, I'm the only mother fucker on the planet I trust with a gun.

The thing is though, it isn't the people that want 20 guns I'm worried about, it's the people that want 50,000 and the people that all of a sudden, only want 1.

Put a knife in this guy's hand because he couldn't get a gun and how many kids make it home to their fucking families today? Really, how many of these fucking events is it going to take before dickheads like you realize that while cool and awesome to go shoot at paper or to target shoot or to hunt quail or deer or to look at yourself in the mirror, your wants get people fucking killed.

Seriously, how many companies need to make a .45? a 9mm? Who fucking needs an assault rifle for home protection. If all you gun people can kill me just as easily with a knife or a bat or a stick or a fucking rock, then apparently you don't need guns to protect yourself anyway.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Lonestar » 2012-12-14 04:40pm

Havok wrote:[
Seriously, how many companies need to make a .45? a 9mm? Who fucking needs an assault rifle for home protection. If all you gun people can kill me just as easily with a knife or a bat or a stick or a fucking rock, then apparently you don't need guns to protect yourself anyway.

That would be a neat trick, as the # of privately owned assault rifles in the country are restricted by what was made before 1986 or so.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 04:40pm

Dark Hellion wrote:20 children are dead and you fucks actually take your time to make troll posts... fuck off Havok and Wee and all the gun control shitposts its just ghoulish at this point.

I had to tell my mother not to watch the news because I know this is going to make her break down crying. This is tragic to the point that there aren't words.
You can go fuck yourself too. Do you not see the correlation with 28 people dead in school shooting with gun control, however you want to argue it? Are you such a small person that your make believe grief over people you have never met just turns off your brain to the larger societal issue at hand?

Save your sanctimonious bull fucking shit for when it's your family member that doesn't come home because some psycho snaps and decides he wants to whack an office building but stops and thinks, "Hmmm if only there were some specially made tool that allowed me to quickly and efficiently put massive holes in humans and is cheap and easy to get. OH RIGHT!!! GO AMERICA! GO 2ND AMENDMENT!!!"
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 04:41pm

Lonestar wrote:
Havok wrote:[
Seriously, how many companies need to make a .45? a 9mm? Who fucking needs an assault rifle for home protection. If all you gun people can kill me just as easily with a knife or a bat or a stick or a fucking rock, then apparently you don't need guns to protect yourself anyway.

That would be a neat trick, as the # of privately owned assault rifles in the country are restricted by what was made before 1986 or so.
Oh right, it can't have a bayonet lug AND a collapsible stock, so it obviously is a completely different weapon now.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Dark Hellion » 2012-12-14 04:42pm

20 children are dead and you can't even display some fucking sympathy without pushing some political agenda? Honestly? I heard this on the radio driving home with a staunch gun control advocate and she didn't say a think about gun control, she was shocked about children being killed. Where the fuck is your humanity you sick fucks?
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Lonestar » 2012-12-14 04:47pm

Havok wrote:
Oh right, it can't have a bayonet lug AND a collapsible stock, so it obviously is a completely different weapon now.


Guess again sugar lips.


And assault rifle is by definition one that allows you to select-fire from semi-automatic to fully automatic or burst mode. In the US the only privately owned assault rifles were made and registered before 1986.


As an example, you could get one for the low-low price of $25k.


But keep throwing terms about a subject you don't understand around while advocating a position on the subject.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 04:56pm

Dark Hellion wrote:20 children are dead and you can't even display some fucking sympathy without pushing some political agenda? Honestly? I heard this on the radio driving home with a staunch gun control advocate and she didn't say a think about gun control, she was shocked about children being killed. Where the fuck is your humanity you sick fucks?
Don't get all high and fucking mighty with me. Why aren't you crying every fucking day for the millions of kids that die around the world because rich nations such as ours are gluttonous and callous to the the fucking core.

Oh no, white kids in Connecticut got killed. Is it horrible? Yes. Am I going to blither on about it like a moron for two days before I get back to my Xmas preparations like most of the country will? Nope. Why bother. It was shocking the first time it happened asshole, now it is an annual right that speaks loudly to much larger problems our country and our world seems to have, but lets go ahead and ignore those because the poor children. How about we worry about the kids that are still alive that we have a chance as a society to save instead of those that couldn't care less. Lets not get to the core issues of (probably) health care for mentally ill people and the fact you can by a fucking gun on the street for $50 in pretty much any moderately sized city in America.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Lonestar » 2012-12-14 05:00pm

I'll go ahead and answer Havok's question as to why people would want a modern sporting rifle(an "assault weapon" if you live in California or many New England states, but not a Assault Rifle) for home defense.


Most semi-automatic longarms that qualify for what Havok pictures as "assault rifles" shoot a caliber known as a .223 Remington. Many are chambered in 5.56 NATO which is very similar, and a rifle chambered in 5.56 NATO can also shoot .223 Remington, which is slightly less powerful. Because it is a rifle round many people assume that it will penetrate through walls, but over the past couple of decades or so it's been shown to Fragment upon hitting material as soft as thin plywood. Given that many servicemembers who come back from fighting overseas often talk about the need for machine guns or the designated marksman w/ a M-14 to hit someone hiding behind a wall, this is unsurprising.


Common pistol rounds and shotgun shells thought of as ideal for home defense(00 Buck) will go right through drywall, and rounds like 9mm or .40S&W will go through several walls.

If you live in an apartment, or townhouse, or even a singlefamily home in a residential development, it should be reallllllyyyyy obvious why a MSR would be preferable for home defense. Some people don't want to hit their neighbors.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Andras » 2012-12-14 05:03pm

Havok wrote:OK. Let's talk school policies. Which school policies at an elementary school would have prevented this?

What is the fundamental issue with our "culture" that allowed this to happen?
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by CaptHawkeye » 2012-12-14 05:03pm

At least it can be said with every disaster like this the anti-gun propaganda machine looks more and more ridiculous. Duchess is right that gun control is not the primary cause of crimes like this though. That the issue to really confront is why crimes like this happen at all in the first place. However Havoc is also very much right that easy access to devices which are designed by their very NATURE to maximize the likelihood of death and fatalities played a part.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Lonestar » 2012-12-14 05:04pm

You might want to shrink that picture a bit brother.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by White Haven » 2012-12-14 05:04pm

Format-break much?
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 05:05pm

Lonestar wrote:
Havok wrote:
Oh right, it can't have a bayonet lug AND a collapsible stock, so it obviously is a completely different weapon now.


Guess again sugar lips.


And assault rifle is by definition one that allows you to select-fire from semi-automatic to fully automatic or burst mode. In the US the only privately owned assault rifles were made and registered before 1986.


As an example, you could get one for the low-low price of $25k.
Yeah, you are right, I mean this is obviously a completely different weapon for only $1,200. It is definitely the ability to go fully auto and 3 round burst that allows the rapid killing of people. Just having 10 rounds in two clips, I mean, you couldn't kill nearly enough people with that.

I wonder what fully auto model today's killer used? Oh, maybe he went conservative with his 3 round burst option on his weapon. You know, so he could make sure he saved that last one for himself.

But keep throwing terms about a subject you don't understand around while advocating a position on the subject.
I know the terms and what they mean. They are practically irrelevant, except to semantics arguers like yourself, that decide they want to miss the big picture and just cherry pick like a pro. I could have just said "rifle" and then where would your clever little rebuttal be? Oh I'm sure you are going to do some technical break down of gun laws and what is and what isn't legal now. It's so predictable.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Havok » 2012-12-14 05:06pm

Well at least we can all agree we hate format breaking. Geez dude.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by ryacko » 2012-12-14 05:10pm

If we keep having more shootings, can this be merged into one thread, until the full moon ends or the Mayan calender ends, or whatever is causing loonies to come out of the wood work?


I want to mention that guns do kill people. Which is why responsible gun owners make sure to point their weapons where it would cause the least harm and lock it. It however is a travesty of the criminal justice system to scapegoat the blame for these horrific gun crimes onto the people who either own or use the gun that has committed the crime. Really, the blame should be placed onto the gun itself, along with the people who produce it and distribute them. Can you believe not a single firearm has stood trial for the harms that it has caused?

On another note, the cause behind gun rights can be blamed on the British. After they attempted to disarm the colonial militia (or what would be considered to be the National Guard today), and quartered troops in homes, we largely ended up with the 2nd Amendment and 3rd Amendments. I don't think the founding fathers imagined the effects of guns on society, as they didn't have drive-by shootings then.
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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Post by Flagg » 2012-12-14 05:11pm

This is just all kinds of fucked up. I'm glad the motherfucker is dead and we don't have to give him attention he desperately wanted.
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