MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spectre_nz »

Wasn't sure if this had made news elsewhere in the world, or if people even still cared;

NZ Herald

In short, a New Zealand High Court judge has ruled that the search and seizure of Dotcom’s property by New Zealand police was unlawful, and the removal of copies of his hard drive data back to the United States by the FBI against explicit instructions not to do so by the New Zealand High Court was illegal.
The case hasn't been thrown out yet, but it looks like this is going to be a large spanner in the works of the ongoing attempts to get Dotcom extradited from New Zealand to the US.

When Dotcom was first arrested the general New Media spin seemed to very heavily favour the 'grr, bad internet pirate, he got what he deserved' angle, but has since come around to more or less the same line as popped up in New Zealand online forums of "It's a little disturbing how much influence the FBI appeared to have in this"

There hasn't really been any mention of which side the screw up occurred on; if the local NZ police got a little too ahead of themselves, jumped the gun and got an invalid warrant to grab everything, or if the instructions handed to them from the US side were just too broad.

Dotcom may well be a slimy little weasel, or not, but I really did not like the apparently lack of due process that appeared to happen when I first heard of the raid, and the more information comes out, the more it looks like, by accident or design, due process has been trampled over in an attempt to get evidence and Dotcom himself out of NZ and into the US.

Internet mogul Kim Dotcom won another victory yesterday in his fight against charges of criminal copyright violation when a High Court judge said the heavily publicised police raid on his mansion was illegal.

Chief High Court judge Helen Winkelmann found that search warrants used in the raid were invalid because they did not adequately describe the allegations against the internet multi-millionaire.

She said the warrants, issued by the District Court, gave police authority to seize too wide a range of items.

Dotcom and Finn Batato, Mathias Ortmann and Bram van der Kolk were arrested in January after a request for assistance from the FBI.

The United States claimed the men were behind the world's biggest criminal copyright violation through Dotcom's filesharing website Megaupload, which carried about 4 per cent of the world's internet traffic. The men deny the charges.

The ruling yesterday is the third embarrassment in the case for Crown lawyers, who are representing the United States in the arrest, seizure and extradition process.

It has previously emerged they used the wrong type of restraining order to seize Dotcom's funds and seizing his property without notice when he should have been given the chance to challenge the seizure.

Then it emerged the Crown knew it was using the wrong order while the raid was in progress.

During the raid, police seized computers, phones and anything which appeared to contain a hard drive - a total of 135 items.

Ms Winkelmann said the search warrant was too broad in the way it described what could be taken.

"These categories of items were defined in such a way that they would inevitably capture within them both relevant and irrelevant material. The police acted on this authorisation.

"The warrants could not authorise seizure of irrelevant material, and are therefore invalid."

She added: "The police relied on invalid warrants when they searched the properties and seized the various items. The search and seizure was therefore illegal."

She noted that even if she was wrong about the validity of the warrants, it was clear police had "exceeded what they could lawfully be authorised to do" because they continued to hold irrelevant material.

She said police faced difficulties executing the search warrants in a lawful manner because they were not the investigating officers with knowledge of the operation.

It emerged during the hearing this month that FBI staff copied some of the seized hard drives at the police electronic crime lab in South Auckland and sent the copies back to the US.

This prompted Dotcom's lawyer, Paul Davison, QC, to say cloning the hard drives had "subverted" his client's rights.

The four accused wanted a declaration the removal of the clones from New Zealand was unlawful.

They also wanted an independent lawyer to decide which of the items seized were relevant to the investigation.

Ms Winkelmann acknowledged the copies had been sent to the US without the consent of Dotcom and his associates, but would not go anyfurther.

She said she wanted the Crown and Dotcom's lawyers to work out a solution before a hearing scheduled for July 4.

The police have previously defended the surprise raid which used helicopters and the special tactics group armed with automatic weapons.

Officials seized Dotcom's collection of more than 20 luxury cars, wife Mona's jewellery and expensive art works. More than $10 million held in New Zealand accounts was also seized.

Police said they were considering the judgment and were in discussions with Crown Law to determine what further action might be required.

Attorney-General Christopher Finlayson's office said he would not comment on matters before the court.

Simpson Grierson partner Greg Towers said last night the four men were "very happy" with the decision and were considering their remedies.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Aaron MkII »

So this is over movies and music?
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Music, movies, books and comics, but not so much that megauploaded hosted them, but that they made a pile of money off advertising on the site and it is alleged, knowingly encouraged certain uploaders to add more illegal content to boost revenue.

That last bit is the key difference why you see the owners here being arrested, while say Google, doesn't have its CEO in jail over illegal stuff in youtube because while lots of stuff exists, they are prompt at removing it upon complaints and ban accounts for doing do so repeatedly ect... The purpose of the surprise raid was clearly an attempt to seize proof, email one would assume, proving that this was a deliberate policy.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by General Zod »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Music, movies, books and comics, but not so much that megauploaded hosted them, but that they made a pile of money off advertising on the site and it is alleged, knowingly encouraged certain uploaders to add more illegal content to boost revenue.

That last bit is the key difference why you see the owners here being arrested, while say Google, doesn't have its CEO in jail over illegal stuff in youtube because while lots of stuff exists, they are prompt at removing it upon complaints and ban accounts for doing do so repeatedly ect... The purpose of the surprise raid was clearly an attempt to seize proof, email one would assume, proving that this was a deliberate policy.
Course the problem is the warrant was so incredibly generic as to amount to a fishing expedition. Which the NZ court didn't like.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spectre_nz »

Course the problem is the warrant was so incredibly generic as to amount to a fishing expedition. Which the NZ court didn't like.
They also really didn't like the FBI's 'creative interpretation' after they cloned the seized hard-drives and sent the data back to the US within days of the raid despite the order that all seized materials were to remain in custody of NZ authorities and in NZ until after the extradition was sorted out.

At best, it was foolish and inept, at worst, the New Zealand leagal system was treated like a trained monkey, loaned out by the NZ governemnt to the FBI, or corporate intrests. There are a lot of puppetry-related cartoons in the papers at the moment.

And my apologies for assuming everyone automatically knew what the fuck I was referring to;
An older thread from the start of the megaupload raid.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Edi »

Spectre_nz wrote:
Course the problem is the warrant was so incredibly generic as to amount to a fishing expedition. Which the NZ court didn't like.
They also really didn't like the FBI's 'creative interpretation' after they cloned the seized hard-drives and sent the data back to the US within days of the raid despite the order that all seized materials were to remain in custody of NZ authorities and in NZ until after the extradition was sorted out.

At best, it was foolish and inept, at worst, the New Zealand leagal system was treated like a trained monkey, loaned out by the NZ governemnt to the FBI, or corporate intrests. There are a lot of puppetry-related cartoons in the papers at the moment.
And just on that basis alone the extradition case should be thrown out and denied. The FBI actions have moved the issue from internet piracy to due process and violations of sovereignty and NZ should scuttle the case in order to drive that lesson home.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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Man, even NZ can give the finger at the Bringers of Freedom when they try to rightly punish a dirty cybercriminal.... where will the world go now?

Back serious, two questions: Why the FBI? wasn't the CIA the one supposed to work outside the US?

Why are they acting like complete idiots? I can understand them doing their stuff illegally and sending data back to the US (and a guy in a sack to a prison somewhere where laws don't exist), but getting caught while doing it (or doing it in the open)?

They decreased training or recruiting standards or they always acted like a stupid bully and just now even puny countries like NZ are fighting back?
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Edi »

CIA is the spy agency, FBI is the law enforcement arm and it's an FBI case. They had asked for and got cooperation from the NZ government and then went and pissed on it as detailed by the article. Probably the imperialist mentality that US agencies can ignore the laws of lesser nations as they please.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spectre_nz »

And just on that basis alone the extradition case should be thrown out and denied. The FBI actions have moved the issue from internet piracy to due process and violations of sovereignty and NZ should scuttle the case in order to drive that lesson home.
I'd like to see that happen on principle, but the current government has been very eager to play toady to the US.
Why are they acting like complete idiots? I can understand them doing their stuff illegally and sending data back to the US (and a guy in a sack to a prison somewhere where laws don't exist), but getting caught while doing it (or doing it in the open)?

They decreased training or recruiting standards or they always acted like a stupid bully and just now even puny countries like NZ are fighting back?
I'm not absolutely sure whose screw up it was; as the matter is before the courts, there is a lot of information that can't be reported on yet. Specifically, I don't know if our local police got far too eager and got ultra-gung ho after the FBI requested help and the NZ government said "Yeah, help as much as you can" or, if the request from the FBI was just too loose and the NZ police carried it out as advertised anyway.
Edit: the search and siezure warrant I mean. The hard drive clone and export was all the FBI, and that part pissed the high court off about as much as it can be pissed off.

Our government tips between two main parties, one a centre left, the other a centre right. The Americans I work with consider them to be 'leftist' and 'even more left than that' compared to the US Dems.
The Left of centre party is the one that declared NZ nuclear free and has had a somewhat antagonistic relationship with US agencies going back quite a way; an example; my Father's first wife was in an anti-Vietnam protest in the 70's (They were married at the time) When my father was elected to parliament, taking over from an incumbent US friendly right of centre government (the same one that caused a stir with this ad that painted the labour government as reds under the bed; produced in America, supposedly, with CIA funding as they were prepared to throw money at anyone campaigning to oust leftist governments.)
Within, I think, his first week in office, he was visited by some black suited American gentlemen (he's never elaborated who they worked for exactly), they had a 2x3 foot photo of the anti-Vietnam protest taken almost a decade earlier with every visible face circled and named. They pointed out my Father's wife (she was a university lecturer, those nasty rabble rousing communists) and made the implication he may not know his wife was a dirty commy in disguise and might want to reconsider his association, given some, hazy threat to NZ US relations. He wasn't impressed and threw them out. As it happens, that wife later became governor general to NZ. Obviously another commie plot. Anyhow, basically, US NZ relations have historically swung between obsequious and antagonist.

Currently we've got the right of centre guys in, and they've been very keen to improve NZ US relations. Unfortunately, it's come across very much as they're keen to bend over for any tid-bit that’s thrown our way; Our police were involved in an 'anti terror raid' more than a year back over which they copped a lot of flak for being far too heavy handed and basically acting like the US SWAT does, which did not go down at all well in the eyes of the public. All the while, the incumbent government has been trying to expand the powers of the police around surveillance, search and seizure; attempts several top lawyers and the NZ human rights commissions have spoken out against.

Basic summary; I don't know if it was just the FBI being heavy handed and thinking it could trample over New Zealand sovereign rights. In the last 4 years, the NZ police and by association, the ministry for the police, have developed a habit of overstepping their bounds, acting, basically, like they're aspiring to be like US law enforcement, pushing the limits of their mandates and getting criticized on more than one occasion by the high court’s for potentially-but-not-quite-illegal breaches of due process and individual rights. Especially when the subject at hand has international significance.

So it ends up looking like the current pro-US government is encouraging, or at least, enabling the NZ police to misbehave when it suits so we can become a nice, helpful dogsbody to US and British interests.
Or Maybe the FBI did just waltz in without concern for sovereign rights. But there hasn’t been a peep of complaint from the government to the US over this, in public at least.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

With that in mind, the question is- what happens now?
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by bilateralrope »

NZ Herald
Kim Dotcom's hearing delayed
10:08 AM Tuesday Jul 10, 2012

Kim Dotcom's extradition hearing has been put off until next year.

It was due to start at the North Shore District Court on the August 6 and was set down for three weeks.

Dotcom's New Zealand-based lawyer said it wasn't possible for the extradition hearing to take place because of all the legal activity happening at the moment surrounding the case,

The ruling that the raid on his Coatsville mansion was illegal has resulted in more court action that has not been wrapped up yet.

The FBI is trying to get the MegaUpload founder back to the US to face charges, including copyright infringement.

It is now scheduled for March.

- Newstalk ZB
Not really surprising.

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Kim Dotcom Will Go to the US in Exchange for Legal Funds

Just hours after his extradition hearing was delayed until 2013, Kim Dotcom is offering the US Government an unusual deal. Growing tired of the “dirty games” being played, Megaupload’s founder says he will voluntarily go to the US if he and his colleagues are promised a fair trial and money to pay their legal and living expenses.

Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom has always been confident that he and his fellow defendants will walk free, if they are given a fair trial.

However, that last part is something he and his lawyers believe the US is trying to prevent. In recent months Megaupload’s legal team has tried to get funds unfrozen so that legal bills can be paid, but thus far without success.

Yesterday, there was yet more bad news when the extradition hearing was delayed from next month till March 2012. This means that even more legal costs will have to be paid in between.

“I have accumulated millions of dollars in legal bills and I haven’t been able to pay a single cent. They just want to hang me out to dry and wait until there is no support left,” Dotcom told NZHerald in a comment.

In an ultimate attempt to speed things up, Dotcom is offering the US Government a remarkable deal. He and his fellow defendants will go to the US voluntarily in exchange for a fair trial, legal funds, and money to pay for personal expenses.

“Hey DOJ, we will go to the US. No need for extradition. We want bail, funds unfrozen for lawyers & living expenses,” Dotcom posted on Twitter.

While this would certainly save the US considerable legal costs, Megaupload’s founder doesn’t think they will respond positively to the offer. By limiting defense funds the US is creating an advantage it doesn’t want to give up.

“They will never agree to this and that is because they can’t win this case and they know that already,” he says.

According to Megaupload’s founder the entire investigation is a gife to Hollywood. Last week Dotcom revealed that Vice President Biden was the person who ordered the Megaupload shutdown and in the coming days he will release a song with a special message for President Obama.
That offer looks like a win/win for Dotcom. If the US refuses, then it becomes even harder to convince the judge in the extradition hearing that Dotcom will get a fair trial. If the US accepts, then it becomes easier for him to cut through this farce because he can pay his lawyers as the bills come in.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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Kim Dotcom is one of the worst human beings around, being responsible for fraud, misuse of title, insider trading etc. You name it, he probably has done it.

That being said, the current case against him may very well be a farce.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Ekiqa »

Thanas wrote:Kim Dotcom is one of the worst human beings around, being responsible for fraud, misuse of title, insider trading etc. You name it, he probably has done it.

That being said, the current case against him may very well be a farce.
The FBI in this case is acting the exactly the same: horrible human beings. But they are even worse, as they are supposed to be the upholders of the law and justice, yet they and their lackeys in NZ violate it willy nilly.

Any one with a sense of decency and propriety would support Kim Dotcom.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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Ekiqa wrote:The FBI in this case is acting the exactly the same: horrible human beings. But they are even worse, as they are supposed to be the upholders of the law and justice, yet they and their lackeys in NZ violate it willy nilly.

Any one with a sense of decency and propriety would support Kim Dotcom.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me here?
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Mr Bean »

Pretty sure he's agreeing with you.
However as with the IvP situation (Which I won't go into here) it's quite possible to hate both sides of the equation. Kim Dotcom is one of the biggest assholes in existence, if not the King he is certinatly a Duke of Douchbags. However the FBI acted like thugs for the MPAA not as policemen and clearly are using intimidation and illegal tactics to pursue someone who need I remind you is not a US citizen.

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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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^Yeah, that is a fair summary.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by White Haven »

And what it comes down to is that the FBI has a responsibility to uphold the rule of law, and a private citizen does not. When both sides are corrupt assholes, but one side has a responsibility to not be corrupt assholes and the other is just a guy...yeah, I come down against the FBI on this one, at least against them more than against Dotcom.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

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Kiwi judge steps aside from Dotcom extradition hearings
Excerpt wrote:The New Zealand judge hearing America’s Great Collapsing Extradition Case against Kim Dotcom has removed himself from the case, after telling a New Zealand forum “we have met the enemy, and he is the US”.

The remark by Judge David Harvey – made to the NetHui conference while discussing the unpopular (except among international copyright cartels) Trans Pacific Partnership treaty negotiations – was made in the context of a cartoon the judge showed during his speech, according to NZ National Business Review journalist Chris Keall....
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Post by madd0ct0r »

does that sum up the general NZ attitude?
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spectre_nz »

A bit of a thread necro, but there's been a new, and from my perspective, rather serious, development.

It now emerges that Kim.com was illegally bugged in the period leading up to the raid by what is roughly New Zealand equivalent of the CIA
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10836311

I didn't even know this organization existed until last week. I'm not sure if they're just our same old intelligence service, the NZSIS, renamed, or something else.

They've been quick to lay the blame on the NZ police, saying they were wrongly informed he was a foreign national, rather than a New Zealand Resident.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10836388

As I'd expect, the GCSB spying on residents and citizens by what is our foreign intelligence agency is a giant no no. I'm surprised the police wouldn’t have been required to do this themselves, given it is a criminal matter; although, given down sizing and out-sourcing, then again, maybe the GCSB is the only agency in the country with the capacity to carry out that kind of ELINT work. Our police has been getting budget cutbacks for years.

And, MadDoc, to answer your question, suspicion and distrust of US influence and the US government agenda is a common view in New Zealand, but I wouldn’t know if it’s a majority view. It certainly seemed to be the majority view back in the mid 80’s when a leftist government rose to power partially on the back of a ‘No American nuclear warships in NZ’ policy that has been kept ever since and is actually considered something of a national identity.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Lord Anubis »

If the warrant that allowed the servers and hard drives to be seized is deemed illegal then wouldn't any information obtained from that warrant be deemed fruit from the poisonous tree and thus completely irrelevant for matters of trial? How can the US trial proceed if the majority of its evidence is supposed to be tossed out or declared illegally obtained? Are they just going to ignore how it was obtained? Say that it wasn't an American warrant or jurisdiction so therefore it doesn't count cause that would be a bad precedent to set in cases that have international implications.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spectre_nz »

I don't know what's occurring on the American side of things, but from appearances, there are three possibilities;

1) The American authorities are just going to ignore the rulings of the NZ high court, because the American warrants were valid in America, precedents be damned
2) The FBI/DOJ/MIB are going to lobby/strong-arm/bribe the New Zealand government into making it legal. Somehow. (I’m suddenly reminded of Star wars Episode I...)
3) The case was never meant to get to trial anyway, it was just a means to seize K.com's money, bankrupt him with pre-trial legal bills, confiscate his equipment, intimidate his workers or anyone who might pick up a similar business in his absence and generally knock over his lemonade stand because the entertainment lobby says he's evil and must be punished.

The US side of things isn’t being reported here at all. Just that the FBI showed up on our doorstep, talked sweet nothings to the NZ police to be allowed in, pissed in the NZ High court’s corn flakes, pinched the milk out of the fridge and the fucked off home leaving a trail of muddy foot prints on the carpet because they never bothered to take their shoes off.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by K. A. Pital »

Spectre_nz wrote:The FBI/DOJ/MIB are going to lobby/strong-arm/bribe the New Zealand government into making it legal. Somehow. (I’m suddenly reminded of Star wars Episode I...)
Indeed. We had so many times when the US just strong-armed other nations into doing such things that this seems to be the most likely course. Although this can backfire in the future when people recall all the sins. And start obstructing extraditions. Or ignore calls for help from the US police.
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Spyder »

Spectre_nz wrote:I didn't even know this organization existed until last week. I'm not sure if they're just our same old intelligence service, the NZSIS, renamed, or something else.

They've been quick to lay the blame on the NZ police, saying they were wrongly informed he was a foreign national, rather than a New Zealand Resident.
The GCSB are a different agency, they mainly just do radio monitoring and communications security for government departments. They tend to be the ones overlooking IT policy if you're ever working in a government department, though their main thing is providing advice for foreign policy based on intelligence they collect. Bugging someone's apartment isn't something they're supposed to be doing, that's the NZSIS's job. That being said, there's legislation specific to what the NZSIS can and can't do, which is probably why the GCSB is involved here.
:D
Vejut
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Re: MegaUpload; The Saga continues

Post by Vejut »

Update
Megaupload case: US prosecutors win evidence appeal
Kim Dotcom Kim Dotcom has run Megaupload since 2005, reportedly netting $175m in profits
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Dotcom starts new file-sharing site

New Zealand's Court of Appeal has said that US prosecutors do not need to disclose full evidence in their fight to extradite Megaupload's Kim Dotcom.

Mr Dotcom has been accused of copying and distributing music, films and other content and faces a jail sentence of up to 20 years if convicted in the US.

A lower court had previously ruled that the defence team needed access to the evidence before the extradition hearing, which is due in March.

Mr Dotcom has denied the charges.

In its judgement, the Court of Appeal said that full disclosure of evidence was not necessary at the extradition hearing.

It ruled that the hearing was not being held to determine whether Mr Dotcom was guilty of the charges, but only to decide whether the US authorities had a valid case for extradition.

"It is for the requesting state to decide what information it wishes to put before the requested state in support of its request," the court said.
'Fight goes on'
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The fight goes on. Next is the Supreme Court of New Zealand”

Kim Dotcom Megaupload

Mr Dotcom, who founded Megaupload in 2005, has been accused of copyright theft, money laundering and racketeering fraud.

Prosecutors allege that pirated movies and other content shared through his site cost copyright holders more than $500m (£322m) in lost earnings, making it one of the biggest cases of its kind.

The US Department of Justice alleges the firm made about $175m from advertising and membership fees as a result of its activities.

Mr Dotcom's lawyers reject the charges, saying the site simply offered an online storage service and that the majority of its traffic was "legitimate".

Despite being such a high-profile case, the saga has been beset by delays.

Mr Dotcom was arrested in Auckland in January last year in a raid requested by the US Federal Bureau of Investigation.

However, the case generated controversy in New Zealand over the way the police and intelligence services gathered evidence before the raid. As a result, Mr Dotcom won an apology from the country's prime minister.

Mr Dotcom, who remains on bail and has since launched another file-sharing site called Mega, indicated that he would appeal against the latest judgement.

"The fight goes on. Next is the Supreme Court of New Zealand," he tweeted after the court's decision.
I do find it interesting the judge ruled the prosecution did not have to show all the evidence to the defense. Is that normal in these sorts of hearings, possibly because they are still be working on the case? Also, hopefully this is the right spot and not a necro.
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