Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by weemadando »

OK, here's the article.
The Age wrote:Apple and the folly of outsourced manufacturing
Aditya Chakrabortty
April 25, 2012 - 12:08AM
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The electronics giant assembles its gadgets in China. But, according to new research, if it moved its production home, it would still be hugely profitable and create thousands of jobs.

An old rule states that you are only six degrees of separation from anyone else on the planet. For some people, however, the world is even smaller. So let me propose an amendment: you are only one relative, friend or acquaintance away from one of the late Steve Jobs's creations.

You may be browsing this on an iPad, one of the 30 million Apple sold last year. Or perhaps you're viewing it on an iPhone. Maybe your children are reluctantly putting away their iPods, of which Apple sells 5 million worldwide every three months (a remarkable figure, but half of the 10 million Jobs and his colleagues were shifting each quarter in 2008 and 2009).

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And if you've really never done any of those things, rest assured your prime minister has. "The cool thing is that I now control my iMac from the iPad, to play out through the speaker," Britain's David Cameron boasted a few months after moving into Downing Street. It was one of those canny-to-the-point-of-irritating references he used to specialise in; a flash of his real-world accreditation.

As Cameron knows, Apple is a byword of everyday sleekness. Yet there is another way of viewing the company. Focus instead on the way it does business, and all those iPhones, iPods and iPads aren't just exemplars of design and user-friendliness: they are devices that destroy western jobs. And they do so needlessly, because if the California-based giant manufactured its goods in America rather than China, it could still make profits that would be the envy of every other US business.

This is, I know, an unorthodox position. When journalists or politicians discuss the way that western companies make goods in China, or anywhere else in Asia, they almost always start from the premise that this is how business is now done. This is the accepted logic of globalisation, which lets companies keep costs down, which allows the ordinary westerner to spend less money shopping, and which offers poorer nations in the east a means to develop their economies. Expensive shirts might still be made in Italy; high-end kitchens might be assembled in Germany - but the future of mass production lies in China.

Apple has made and benefited from that argument. In January, the New York Times ran a lengthy investigation of the technology firm's manufacturing processes, which began by disclosing a conversation in 2011 between Jobs and Barack Obama. The President asked why Apple products could not be made in the US. The most admired man in Silicon Valley was reportedly blunt: "Those jobs aren't coming back."

Very few people argued with that assessment. In other ways excellent, the New York Times piece had an elegiac tone, conveyed by the headline How the US Lost Out on iPhone Work. And the commentary went on in this it's-not-you-it's-me vein. It wasn't Apple's fault it didn't hire Americans to make its goods: it was America's. US workers weren't skilled enough; not enough of them were trained in engineering.

Such national self-abasement has the merit of at least feeling like a policy; but it's debatable whether on its own it really will pull in big employers. Apple, after all, used to base its manufacturing in the US. Jobs used to boast about how the Mac was "a machine that is made in America". And according to new research by the Centre for Research on Socio-Cultural Change (Cresc), it's clear that it would not only be affordable for Apple still to make its goods in America, it would remain hugely profitable.

Using a mix of Apple's own financial filings and industry data, the academics broke down the cost of making one product in particular: the 4G iPhone. Assembled in China, the cost of putting together one phone was $US178.45 ($173.47). Compare that with a sale price (including downloads) of $US630 and Apple makes $US452 on each phone: a whacking gross margin of 72 per cent.

Chinese labour accounts for a tiny proportion of the company's costs: $US7.10 for each phone, which accounts for about eight hours of assembly. So what would it cost to make the same iPhone in America? The Cresc team took the average wage in the US electronics industry of $US21 per hour and calculated that the total production cost would increase to $US337.01. That is a big jump - but it still leaves Apple with a gross margin of 46.5 per cent on each iPhone - a level that Cresc's Sukhdev Johal estimates would probably still make it the most profitable phone in the world.

So: two models of making one of Apple's most popular products, and two models for distributing the profits. The made-in-America model still leaves the California giant with a profit margin that most companies can only dream of, but would create hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs in the US to boot. That may strike you as laughably naive, but it's more akin to enlightened self-interest: just think of the way Henry Ford raised wages so Ford workers could buy his cars.

The made-in-China model, on the other hand, has carried no such social benefits, either in Apple's home country or in the People's Republic. Last year, Apple built up cash reserves of $US100 billion - more than the US government. Indeed, it was so much money that the company was stumped how to dispose of it. Tim Cook, who is now CEO of Apple, announced a few weeks ago that he would begin buying back shares and paying dividends to investors. Among other people who benefited from this arrangement was Cook himself, who was awarded $US376.3 million in Apple stock when he took over last year. That pile of shares is now valued at about $US634 million. The people who win from the made-in-China model are big investors and top executives.

In the case of Apple, outsourcing manufacturing is not about keeping costs to customers down - they are still paying huge prices for the latest handset or tablet computer. Nor is it about the company's survival: it would still do tremendously well were it to bring those factories back home. No, in the case of Apple, moving jobs offshore has become a way of directing ever more money to those at the top of American society.

This is not just my conclusion, or that of the Cresc team; it is backed up by the Asian Development Bank. In a 2010 study of an earlier model of the iPhone, ADB researchers concluded: "It is the profit maximisation behaviour of Apple rather than competition that pushes Apple to have all iPhones assembled in the PRC."

This division of labour has certainly not helped China very much. Foxconn, which makes those iPhones, has to work to an incredibly tough contract with Apple that forces it to keep all costs to a minimum. This surely helps account for why Foxconn, whose client list is almost a Who's Who of the smartphone sector, has had repeated troubles with its workforce, including at least 18 suicide attempts by workers in 2010 alone. After that, and the terrible publicity that followed, Apple put pressure on its subcontractor to raise workers' pay and improve conditions. But it didn't take the most obvious route of doing so, which would be: pay more to Foxconn, and direct it to use that surplus to increase wages.

The reason for concentrating on Apple in this fashion is not because it's a terrible company, but because it's an exemplary one. It has become the business success story of our age: the firm others want to emulate, and prime ministers want to name check. And yet there is a paradox here. For all the stylishness and sleekness of its products, the Apple business model is an unattractive and, over the long term, possibly an unsustainable one. It subcontracts work that offers the Chinese little prospect of economic development, while at the same time selling to Americans and others products they want but increasingly don't have the jobs or incomes to buy so readily.

Apple's rise to first among equals in the business world has coincided with a wider social trend: a general anxiety about the decline of the west. Some of the reasons for why America, Britain and others are on the slide are large and abstract. But some of the factors are smaller and closer to hand, like the iPhone in your pocket or the Mac waiting for you at home.

Guardian News & Media
Obviously a few issues:

1) Apple fucking LUUUUURVE money and cutting their potential profit per phone by THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS just ain't going to fly, even if it still gives them an obscene margin.

2) The Henry Ford argument can be applied to China too - after all, we're creating a middle class by exploiting them there. Right? RIGHT?

3) Vicious cycle/typical capitalist bullshit - shift technical, skilled jobs offshore for a generation, then complain that there's not technically trained, skilled workers back home to do it.


Obviously I think that having those jobs "at home" so to speak would be ideal as it would be a massive economic boon for the US, but it's not going to happen until Huawei starts building factories in the US to take advantage of the undereducated, unemployed and desperate there.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by madd0ct0r »

oh cry me a fucking river.

you ram free market trade, no cap restrictions down the throat of every other country in the world via the IMF and then come crying when the company owned by american shareholders refuses to act contrary to it's own interests?

oh boo fucking hoo.

if america want's to get into the tech and electronic business, it should do it by being good, or even fucking competent. American engineering is a global joke.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by Block »

madd0ct0r wrote:oh cry me a fucking river.

you ram free market trade, no cap restrictions down the throat of every other country in the world via the IMF and then come crying when the company owned by american shareholders refuses to act contrary to it's own interests?

oh boo fucking hoo.

if america want's to get into the tech and electronic business, it should do it by being good, or even fucking competent. American engineering is a global joke.
Umm, Apple's products are engineered by Americans unless you know something I don't. The R&D is done here, it's the manufacturing that isn't.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Block wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:oh cry me a fucking river.

you ram free market trade, no cap restrictions down the throat of every other country in the world via the IMF and then come crying when the company owned by american shareholders refuses to act contrary to it's own interests?

oh boo fucking hoo.

if america want's to get into the tech and electronic business, it should do it by being good, or even fucking competent. American engineering is a global joke.
Umm, Apple's products are engineered by Americans unless you know something I don't. The R&D is done here, it's the manufacturing that isn't.
In America and by Americans are two very different things.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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weemadando wrote:
In America and by Americans are two very different things.
Not to Americans as we are American, if you live and work here, eat of our hot dogs and partake in our chili cheese fries then you become American. You just have to do it for long enough and forsake the idea of Prime minsters just add a dash of time and then bam... American.

One thing the OP left out was the cost of parts and their shipping. Specifically if you moved Iphone production back stateside you would also have to move fifty other factories back stateside, the cost savings for Apple is not just in man hours but mostly in the fact that if the Iphone needs a brand new chip for something there are literally two dozen chip manufacturers just down the street of which Apple can tap any and make them bid against each other. Even if a magic wand were waved and the Iphone plants moved to the US that still would require moving all of the part plants which are far more numerous and run on far thinner margins back as well.

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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Mr Bean wrote:One thing the OP left out was the cost of parts and their shipping. Specifically if you moved Iphone production back stateside you would also have to move fifty other factories back stateside, the cost savings for Apple is not just in man hours but mostly in the fact that if the Iphone needs a brand new chip for something there are literally two dozen chip manufacturers just down the street of which Apple can tap any and make them bid against each other. Even if a magic wand were waved and the Iphone plants moved to the US that still would require moving all of the part plants which are far more numerous and run on far thinner margins back as well.
A big part of this is Apple likes the ability to make last-minute changes to the production line - so you need all those other factories around. Years of globalization/off-shoring/free-trade/whatever have pretty much killed domestic production (and really, the US is not going to be able to complete on making tiny screws!) It'd take a fairly comprehensive government policy to bring all of that back, something neither party really cares to do. We really only care about the highest-end parts (e.g. advanced CPUs).

Even if we do bring them back ... I suspect they'd be robotic assembly lines anyways! Even Foxconn is moving in that direction.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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phongn wrote:Even if we do bring them back ... I suspect they'd be robotic assembly lines anyways! Even Foxconn is moving in that direction.
Yeah, sure. But robots need people to maintain them, right ? Right ?...
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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I used to work for RIM so I know a few things about producing pagers, phones, and other electronics. If Apple were to move production back to the US they wouldn't need to move all that many factories, they just need to move the main assembly plant, the display screen factory, and the plant that makes the cases. All the chips & circuitboards in the products are available on a contract delivery basis in pretty much any volume anywhere in the world, place the order with the suppliers and the trucks show up at the plant the next day. It would cost more since some of those parts would need to be shipped in from Japan, Korea, or Thailand until US production can be expanded and ramped up but it's not exactly impossible.

With regards to last minute production changes, that's not really a problem either since we've done it at RIM in my days when the supply chain wasn't as good as it is now. If the company is well integrated with its suppliers & subcontractors it doesn't really matter if those suppliers are right next door or 3000 miles away. The guys who made some of our key parts were nowhere near the production plant but we still got it done.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Rabid wrote:
phongn wrote:Even if we do bring them back ... I suspect they'd be robotic assembly lines anyways! Even Foxconn is moving in that direction.
Yeah, sure. But robots need people to maintain them, right ? Right ?...
Yes, but not that many compared to the giant lines of workers we used to see in the US (and still see in China).
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Is anyone seriously thinking this suggestion is anything but hilarious? 'Do someone to make lower profits because I want it, faceless profit generating organisation'.

American hypocrisy at its finest. Aside from sour grapes (and anti-Apple feeling, which is again amazingly funny) why does this article even exist when there are so many other jobs that could be bought back to America if only corporations didn't care about 'money' and 'profit'? :lol:
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aerius wrote:I used to work for RIM so I know a few things about producing pagers, phones, and other electronics. If Apple were to move production back to the US they wouldn't need to move all that many factories, they just need to move the main assembly plant, the display screen factory, and the plant that makes the cases. All the chips & circuitboards in the products are available on a contract delivery basis in pretty much any volume anywhere in the world, place the order with the suppliers and the trucks show up at the plant the next day. It would cost more since some of those parts would need to be shipped in from Japan, Korea, or Thailand until US production can be expanded and ramped up but it's not exactly impossible.

With regards to last minute production changes, that's not really a problem either since we've done it at RIM in my days when the supply chain wasn't as good as it is now. If the company is well integrated with its suppliers & subcontractors it doesn't really matter if those suppliers are right next door or 3000 miles away. The guys who made some of our key parts were nowhere near the production plant but we still got it done.
Apple certainly seems to think they're a big plus for siting production in China, according to this New York Times article. There were some other factors as well, such as labor supply. The article mentions that the Foxconn plant need 8,700 industrial engineers, the recruitment of which would take up to 9 months in the US but 15 days in China.

On a side-note, this
That may strike you as laughably naive, but it's more akin to enlightened self-interest: just think of the way Henry Ford raised wages so Ford workers could buy his cars.
is actually a myth, IIRC. Ford didn't raise wages at his plants so that his workers could afford Model T cars - he raised wages because he was using a Taylorian industrial set-up. Turnover, sabotage, and labor unrest were issues at his plants, so he raised wages to increase retention.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Stark wrote:Is anyone seriously thinking this suggestion is anything but hilarious? 'Do someone to make lower profits because I want it, faceless profit generating organisation'.
The author is not telling Apple what to do. He is correcting a common misconception ('folly'), that massive outsourcing is necessary to stay 'competitive'.
The article wrote:This is not just my conclusion, or that of the Cresc team; it is backed up by the Asian Development Bank. In a 2010 study of an earlier model of the iPhone, ADB researchers concluded: "It is the profit maximisation behaviour of Apple rather than competition that pushes Apple to have all iPhones assembled in the PRC."
Stark wrote:American hypocrisy at its finest. Aside from sour grapes (and anti-Apple feeling, which is again amazingly funny) why does this article even exist when there are so many other jobs that could be bought back to America if only corporations didn't care about 'money' and 'profit'? :lol:
The article wrote:The reason for concentrating on Apple in this fashion is not because it's a terrible company, but because it's an exemplary one. It has become the business success story of our age: the firm others want to emulate, and prime ministers want to name check.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by weemadando »

But he's also either an idiot or lying by omission.

What about all the secondary and tertiary processing for the materials needed to manufacture the components and component manufacture itself?

Not to mention the establishment of all these processes in the US.
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If only Apple was concerned only with being 'competitive' and not making as much money as possible for its shareholders? Its the American dream, and it killed America. Welcome to the works of Bruce Springsteen. :lol:

Is there anything in the article that should actually encourage corporations to do anything outside typical CSR stuff many of them do in the third world already? Corporate welfare for America!

PS
For all the stylishness and sleekness of its products, the Apple business model is an unattractive and, over the long term, possibly an unsustainable one.
uh oh

The laugh here is that 'unattractive' is exactly what idiots would say, and the unsustainability of exploting China and India as labour pools was cutting-edge news like 10 years ago. Turns out a side effect of global capitalism is jobs constantly moving where they are cheapest. PROTIP - that's not America.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Guardsman Bass wrote:Ford didn't raise wages at his plants so that his workers could afford Model T cars - he raised wages because he was using a Taylorian industrial set-up. Turnover, sabotage, and labor unrest were issues at his plants, so he raised wages to increase retention.
Makes you wonder how much money Foxconn is losing that way, really. Are iPhones really so cheap that writing vast numbers of them off as QC testing failures is cheaper than paying its line workers enough to support a family?
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Zaune wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Ford didn't raise wages at his plants so that his workers could afford Model T cars - he raised wages because he was using a Taylorian industrial set-up. Turnover, sabotage, and labor unrest were issues at his plants, so he raised wages to increase retention.
Makes you wonder how much money Foxconn is losing that way, really. Are iPhones really so cheap that writing vast numbers of them off as QC testing failures is cheaper than paying its line workers enough to support a family?
You would be surprised how little it costs to support a family, or help support one, in China. China's social and economic patterns (huge numbers of rural peasants moving to the cities, a growing but still limited middle class) mean that Chinese factory workers are willing to work for less than you'd think. Otherwise they will simply be replaced, and likely end up at a job that pays less.

Also, ironically, state-communist parties often aren't too friendly to independent organized labor. Which may be making it harder for the workers in the plants to organize and get better working conditions. The Party would do it if the Party saw fit, but if the Party doesn't care, the Party is going to make it hard for them to take matters into their own hands.
Stark wrote:If only Apple was concerned only with being 'competitive' and not making as much money as possible for its shareholders? Its the American dream, and it killed America. Welcome to the works of Bruce Springsteen. :lol:

Is there anything in the article that should actually encourage corporations to do anything outside typical CSR stuff many of them do in the third world already? Corporate welfare for America!
...Perhaps the article is not written for corporations, and the author does not much care whether the CEO of Apple or whoever reads it? Perhaps the article is written so normal people can read it and get some real facts about how outsourcing has affected them, instead of bullshit from politicoes who are in love with free trade and large corporations? Perhaps the point is to refute myths and get people thinking about all this stuff again, as they had not been thinking about it very much in the US lately, or in a lot of other countries?

But no, of course this is a pathetically naive and whiny gesture by some teenager who wants to cry about how unfair large corporations are. That makes so much more sense, or at least it's easier to snigger at.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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weemadando wrote:But he's also either an idiot or lying by omission.

What about all the secondary and tertiary processing for the materials needed to manufacture the components and component manufacture itself?

Not to mention the establishment of all these processes in the US.
I don't quite understand you - I don't know what exactly you're criticising. The impression I get from Aerius is that processing and producing absolutely all the materials and components is far from necessary. So I don't see how it's idiotic or misleading for the article to focus on the cost of 'putting a phone together'.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Stark wrote:Welcome to the works of Bruce Springsteen. :lol:
Corporate welfare for America!
PS
uh oh
The laugh here is
Turns out
PROTIP
Why do you even bother posting here? Is it just because you enjoy annoying people? Or swaggering around acting superior? Are places like 4chan too anonymous for you to get your kicks? Or is it all just for the hell of it? It's seems pointless to move your fingers around so much just to decrease the signal-to-noise ratio in random threads.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Winston Blake wrote:
weemadando wrote:But he's also either an idiot or lying by omission.

What about all the secondary and tertiary processing for the materials needed to manufacture the components and component manufacture itself?

Not to mention the establishment of all these processes in the US.
I don't quite understand you - I don't know what exactly you're criticising. The impression I get from Aerius is that processing and producing absolutely all the materials and components is far from necessary. So I don't see how it's idiotic or misleading for the article to focus on the cost of 'putting a phone together'.
Imagine that you are assembling in the US, but your manufacturing is still predominantly in China.

You now have to ship from China to the US for assembly from multiple plants - that's exponential cost increases there.

Ideally, you vertically integrate an operation like this in a single geographic zone. Y'know, sorta like what they've done with China. That way you only have to worry about warehousing and shipping and customs and everything else once - when you move your final product.

You could have vertically integrated it in the US, but y'know, capitalism.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by Winston Blake »

weemadando wrote:Imagine that you are assembling in the US, but your manufacturing is still predominantly in China.

You now have to ship from China to the US for assembly from multiple plants - that's exponential cost increases there.

Ideally, you vertically integrate an operation like this in a single geographic zone. Y'know, sorta like what they've done with China. That way you only have to worry about warehousing and shipping and customs and everything else once - when you move your final product.

You could have vertically integrated it in the US, but y'know, capitalism.
OK I see what you're saying. Naturally it's going to cost more. However, I'm not so sure about it being 'exponential', and vertically integrating as far back as processing the materials doesn't really seem necessary.

It would be interesting to quantify the effect of 'shipping & handling' on iPhone production cost. I don't have any numbers either way, but Aerius mentioned this briefly. He didn't seem to think it would make the product uncompetitive. Hopefully he will expand on this later.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by weemadando »

It's not about it being uncompetitive.

It's about cutting back on the ENORMOUS profit margins.

Which no company would ever fucking do if they're answerable to shareholders first and the rest of the universe second.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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It would be helpful if aerius said what he actually did, I would be inclined to listen if he was upper management but if he just soldered shit, then I don't see how his opinion would carry any weight.

Would you believe me if I started talking about the ideal way to deploy to Afghanistan? I was a corporal.
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by Zaune »

Aaron MkII wrote:Would you believe me if I started talking about the ideal way to deploy to Afghanistan? I was a corporal.
Depends. How much are promotions in your branch of the service based on skill at one's actual job as opposed to skill at office politics?
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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

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Well, promotions are based partially on qualifications, you need certain courses to make MCpl, Sgt, and higher, which consists of both leadership and technical courses.

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Re: Apple - should it manufacture in the US?

Post by Winston Blake »

weemadando wrote:It's not about it being uncompetitive.

It's about cutting back on the ENORMOUS profit margins.

Which no company would ever fucking do if they're answerable to shareholders first and the rest of the universe second.
You missed my point. I was saying that when Aerius said it 'wasn't impossible', this implies that the cost of manufacturing an iPhone in America wouldn't be so high that it would actually exceed the price. If it did, it would be completely pointless, even if there was unlimited political will to shift the base. The whole point of the article is simply that, theoretically, Apple could sacrifice all this shit and still come out on top.
Aaron MkII wrote:It would be helpful if aerius said what he actually did, I would be inclined to listen if he was upper management but if he just soldered shit, then I don't see how his opinion would carry any weight.

Would you believe me if I started talking about the ideal way to deploy to Afghanistan? I was a corporal.
Fine, maybe Aerius is full of shit, let's wait and see if he posts again.
Robert Gilruth to Max Faget on the Apollo program: “Max, we’re going to go back there one day, and when we do, they’re going to find out how tough it is.”
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