Gil Hamilton wrote:
Absolutely. Remember, Zimmerman had come to the conclusion that Martin was a criminal, somehow, and was out to confront him on that basis, hence violence was a strong possibility. Zimmerman had a firearm, which by its very nature escalates potential violence into potential deadly violence, simply by its presence. After all, that Zimmerman had a gun and was chasing him is a pretty compelling reason why Martin tried to overpower him and beat him. Zimmerman caused this entire situation, when he easily could have avoided.
You still aren't grasping this concept. It doesn't matter what you are carrying. What matters is whether the situation itself is likely to force you to resort to deadly force to remove yourself from the situation. Positioning yourself in front of a fleeing car. Seeking out extremely violent gang members and insulting them. Jumping into the middle of a fight where you are outnumbered.
Following one person who is acting suspicious and confronting them is not a situation in which I would see the likely outcome is them trying to murder me.
Confronting someone engaged in any crime is not a situation in which I would see the likely outcome is them trying to murder me, otherwise, police would approach all persons engaged in any criminal activity with guns drawn.
Tell me, KS, don't you even feel a bit weird that in a scenario where a paranoid nutcase with a firearm chases unarmed teenager and ends up shooting him that you are defending the paranoid nutcase?
A persons call history is not a diagnosis for mental illness. Also, I think Zimmerman is an idiot but my position is whether he broke the law or acted in a manner that made his use of deadly force unjustified. Under current Florida law it does not appear that way.
You keep going back to any violence. This case law doesn't specify any violence. It specifies putting yourself into a situation in which it would be obvious to a reasonable person that deadly force would be needed to remove yourself from it. Confronting your typical suspicious person or petty criminal doesn't reach that level otherwise police would be justified in pointing guns at shoplifters, assault suspects, etc.
You said yourself, they didn't have to attack me in my scenario and insulting people isn't a crime. You put all responsibility on them before. In my scenario, I did knowingly and intentionally create the scenario so I could kill those men. Yet I'd walk scot free, particularly given Arizona's "Stand Your Ground" law... it might not even go to trial, because the police probably can't demonstrate based on the immediate evidence that I had done anything wrong.
I didn't put all the responsibility on them before. Are you paying attention?
When you posted this scenario I said "I'm not aware if there is case law when it comes to your average joe citizen but there is case law that a police officer will be found unjustified in the use of deadly force if it is discovered that the police officer created the situation in which deadly force was needed. IE - Positioning yourself in front of a moving car, jumping into the middle of a large fight without sufficient numbers."
How you conclude that means that I'm placing all the responsibility on them is aggravating. In your scenario your use of deadly force would be unjustified because you engaged in action that is likely to result in your needing to use deadly force to remove yourself from that situation.
I'm not sure how the stand your ground laws apply to the case law that I'm talking about. I'm still researching it. This case law might only apply to police officers so this entire conversation could be irrelevant.
It was reckless of me to start the encounter in the first place, you are denying above that merely starting an encounter where violence is a possibility is enough. Or are you conceding that Zimmerman did commit at least manslaughter, since his own reckless actions lead to the death of a person?
I said at the very start that your use of deadly force in the gang scenario would not be justified and that's because you're provoking a situation in which you will have to use deadly force to remove yourself. Even though that is what happened in with Zimmerman's situation that was not the likely outcome...at least in my opinion.