Trayvon Martin Case (Zimmerman charged; 2nd deg. murder)

[Kamakazie Sith]

If Martin would have shot and killed Zimmerman after taking the gun and claimed that he was defending his life from Zimmerman I wonder how this would have unfolded. Would Martin have been charged? If not, would there be claims of police corruption? Would there be claims of racism?

Why wouldn't he be charged?

I suppose that does need some clarification. Say the physical situation was reversed and Zimmerman was on top of Martin beating him and Martin managed to get Zimmerman's gun and use it against him.

[JLTucker]

The question remains. Why on earth would you insinuate that he wouldn't be charged?

[Dalton]

The question remains. Why on earth would you insinuate that he wouldn't be charged?

Because it'd be considered justifiable under Stand Your Ground, I think.

[aerius]

Let's play RAR!! Hipotetical Situation!

Let's suppose that Martin was walking down the street when Zimmerman came up to him and asked him some questions. Zimmy doesn't like the answers and attempts to perform a citizen's arrest, Martin resists and they start a fight. Martin sees that Zimmy has a gun shortly before they go to the ground, Zimmy ends up on top and starts punching Martin in the head. Martin at this point makes a desperation grab for the gun, gets it, and shoots & kills Zimmerman. That is a clean shoot. Under Florida law it should not even be charged. It is perfectly justifiable self-defence.

Or let's start from the beginning of the fight and have it go a bit differently. In this alternate scenario (RAR!) it ends up the same way as what Zimmerman claims in the real life case. Martin is on top after it goes to the ground and he's punching Zimmerman in the head. Zimmerman draws his gun to shoot, but in this case Martin gets control of it and uses it to shoot & kill Zimmerman. This is now manslaughter under Florida law and possibly murder 2. Martin was on top and doing the beating, and once he had control of the gun it's his duty to exit the situation. If he doesn't he gets the book thrown at him.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The question remains. Why on earth would you insinuate that he wouldn't be charged?

It doesn't remain. I've answered it. Why do you think he would be charged?

[Gil Hamilton]

I suppose that does need some clarification. Say the physical situation was reversed and Zimmerman was on top of Martin beating him and Martin managed to get Zimmerman's gun and use it against him.

Well, it would be a black teenager named Trayvon who isn't from the neighborhood shooting someone who IS from the neighborhood and whose story is "I was just walking, minding my own business, and then this crazy white guy just starts following me for no reason, then jumped me with a gun, which I got away from him and shot him" in freakin' Florida.

Not for nothing, but what do you think would happen?

[JLTucker]

I suppose that does need some clarification. Say the physical situation was reversed and Zimmerman was on top of Martin beating him and Martin managed to get Zimmerman's gun and use it against him.

Well, it would be a black teenager named Trayvon who isn't from the neighborhood shooting someone who IS from the neighborhood and whose story is "I was just walking, minding my own business, and then this crazy white guy just starts following me for no reason, then jumped me with a gun, which I got away from him and shot him" in freakin' Florida.

Not for nothing, but what do you think would happen?

Yes. It's obvious Sith was making some sort of social commentary on racism with his stupid post before he made a clarification.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I suppose that does need some clarification. Say the physical situation was reversed and Zimmerman was on top of Martin beating him and Martin managed to get Zimmerman's gun and use it against him.

Well, it would be a black teenager named Trayvon who isn't from the neighborhood shooting someone who IS from the neighborhood and whose story is "I was just walking, minding my own business, and then this crazy white guy just starts following me for no reason, then jumped me with a gun, which I got away from him and shot him" in freakin' Florida.

Not for nothing, but what do you think would happen?

None of which are elements of murder or self defense. It seems like you believe Martin would end up being charged and that this would be due to racism. So, do you believe a black man that is not from the neighborhood and is charged with a crime is likely a victim of racism?

Yes. It's obvious Sith was making some sort of social commentary on racism with his stupid post before he made a clarification.

Yet, you still haven't made a worth while contribution with your "superior" intellect. I think I can already predict your answer though. You believe Martin would be charged if the situation were reversed. You believe this because you think the entire state of Florida is racist, or perhaps just all white cops. If this isn't correct then instead of wasting time with stupid questions you can actually give a fucking answer or maybe you can just run away from yet another discussion.

When this thread started some people assumed that racism was the reason why Zimmerman was not charged. However, none of the information learned about the incident supports that assumption. Yet, Gil and perhaps you (?) think that Martin would be charged if the self defense situation would be reversed. What basis do you have to make such a definite assumption?

[JLTucker]

Yet, you still haven't made a worth while contribution with your "superior" intellect. I think I can already predict your answer though. You believe Martin would be charged if the situation were reversed. You believe this because you think the entire state of Florida is racist, or perhaps just all white cops. If this isn't correct then instead of wasting time with stupid questions you can actually give a fucking answer or maybe you can just run away from yet another discussion.

Oh, please. I didn't run away from the last discussion. I was hospitalized like I said in your blatant display of harassment via PM. I was pissing blood. I'm sorry I didn't come here to play cops and posters with another stupid discussion. My health matters more than some silly cop getting his uniform in a bunch every time someone discusses police activity and guns. Are you happy with your vendetta?

Yes, I do sincerely think Martin would have been charged. Not only because he was black, but because of the same factors that happened in this case. It would be controversial too given the stand your ground law. But the funny thing is that you appear to think blacks get preferential treatment in a state that is remanded in a region that has been a blight on the country for decades. If that's not what you meant by your trite hypothetical scenario, do enlighten us. I'd also ask that you answer your own question instead of trying to race bait us.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh, please. I didn't run away from the last discussion. I was hospitalized like I said in your blatant display of harassment via PM. I was pissing blood. I'm sorry I didn't come here to play cops and posters with another stupid discussion. My health matters more than some silly cop getting his uniform in a bunch every time someone discusses police activity and guns. Are you happy with your vendetta?

You're a bit off. The last discussion that you are referring to was about murderers and life in prison and that was back in December and unless you were out for more than several weeks then you should have returned to continue the discussion that you started.

I have issue with anyone that starts a discussion under hostile pretenses and fails to continue it. That's a lack of integrity.

Yes, I do sincerely think Martin would have been charged. Not only because he was black, but because of the same factors that happened in this case. It would be controversial too given the stand your ground law. But the funny thing is that you appear to think blacks get preferential treatment in a state that is remanded in a region that has been a blight on the country for decades. If that's not what you meant by your trite hypothetical scenario, do enlighten us. I'd also ask that you answer your own question instead of trying to race bait us.

Based on what I know about this case I do not believe that Martin would have been charged or that African Americans receive "preferential treatment". It appears that the authorities in that area considered the evidence and the testimony of the those involved and made the most appropriate decision.

What I find interesting is you still assume a racist conclusion to this alternative scenario when the evidence does not support that conclusion. I'm also not trying to race bait anyone. What I'm attempting to do is get you to think. Is assuming racism due to geography a sound decision? Is continuing to assume racism when the evidence fails to support that notion a sound decision? Are you being impartial? Again, I will remind you that this thread started out with many biases that at this point are unsupported by evidence.

[JLTucker]

Oh, please. I didn't run away from the last discussion. I was hospitalized like I said in your blatant display of harassment via PM. I was pissing blood. I'm sorry I didn't come here to play cops and posters with another stupid discussion. My health matters more than some silly cop getting his uniform in a bunch every time someone discusses police activity and guns. Are you happy with your vendetta?

You're a bit off. The last discussion that you are referring to was about murderers and life in prison and that was back in December and unless you were out for more than several weeks then you should have returned to continue the discussion that you started.

I have issue with anyone that starts a discussion under hostile pretenses and fails to continue it. That's a lack of integrity.

I was hospitalized at the end of December and when I got out I had to recover and I had to get things in order for school. I'm sorry that I didn't get back to our discussion while I was managing the innerworkings of my cock.

For posterity, here is your harassment:

Why do you always run from every fucking thread you get involved in. Pull up your panties and defend your position, bitch.

I'm sick. My piss has the consistency and look of coffee. Our discussion can wait.

I'm very sorry. I sincerely hope you feel better soon.

You obviously didn't give a shit and your misogyny is clearly on display. Now, kindly fuck off with your vendetta.

Edit: I'm going to go further. I was also in a bit of mental strife afterward. I was contemplating hurting myself to get a procedure done that I can't afford (ask Aaron). Clearly you're more important.

[Gil Hamilton]

None of which are elements of murder or self defense. It seems like you believe Martin would end up being charged and that this would be due to racism. So, do you believe a black man that is not from the neighborhood and is charged with a crime is likely a victim of racism?

Yes, I do. Black men are far more likely be to arrested and charged for things than white men, in addition to typically being given harsher sentencing and longer jail times for the same crimes. I think that is Martin said exactly what had happened, that Zimmerman just started stalking him and attacked him for no apparent reason while he was just walking along the sidewalk, I think the Sanford police would manage to have more than a healthy amount of skepticism on the issue and not believe that he was merely walking along minding his own business.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I was hospitalized at the end of December and when I got out I had to recover and I had to get things in order for school. I'm sorry that I didn't get back to our discussion while I was managing the innerworkings of my cock.

Like I said I have an issue with someone that starts discussions under hostile circumstances and does not return to continue the conversation. I understand the medical issue but you should have returned and if memory serves this isn't the first time you've abandoned a discussion.

This isn't a vendetta though. You replied to me. The hit and run tactics wear thin on me.

For posterity, here is your harassment:

I like how you call it harassment. How naive. It would be harassment if I continued to PM you demanding that you return.

Why do you always run from every fucking thread you get involved in. Pull up your panties and defend your position, bitch.

I'm sick. My piss has the consistency and look of coffee. Our discussion can wait.

I'm very sorry. I sincerely hope you feel better soon.

You obviously didn't give a shit and your misogyny is clearly on display. Now, kindly fuck off with your vendetta.

Edit: I'm going to go further. I was also in a bit of mental strife afterward. I was contemplating hurting myself to get a procedure done that I can't afford (ask Aaron). Clearly you're more important.[/quote]

Interesting. I guess English is taught differently where you are because being very sorry and sincerely hoping for a return to good health does not mean someone doesn't give a shit. Unlike your feeling for me, Tucker, I don't hate you. Don't project tone of voice or body language into text. I was being sincere and I still am but ny issue is you implied that you would be getting back to the discussion and you never did. I really wouldn't have an issue with that if you weren't hostile to begin with.

Now here we are having a two part discussion and you left out replying to the the other subject of this discussion. Are you done with that conversation?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yes, I do. Black men are far more likely be to arrested and charged for things than white men, in addition to typically being given harsher sentencing and longer jail times for the same crimes. I think that is Martin said exactly what had happened, that Zimmerman just started stalking him and attacked him for no apparent reason while he was just walking along the sidewalk, I think the Sanford police would manage to have more than a healthy amount of skepticism on the issue and not believe that he was merely walking along minding his own business.

That's understandable to have doubts. I get that and I share it. My conclusion that Martin would not be charged is because based on what we do know the right decision was made. Still, I have my doubts but I'm following the evidence. Why do you take it a step forward and form a conclusion based off a lack of evidence to support it?

[JLTucker]

Like I said I have an issue with someone that starts discussions under hostile circumstances and does not return to continue the conversation. I understand the medical issue but you should have returned and if memory serves this isn't the first time you've abandoned a discussion.

I don't know what else to say. I got wrapped up in school with demanding courseloads, preparing lessons, and teaching. The only reason I'm here now is because I'm on spring break.

Interesting. I guess English is taught differently where you are because being very sorry and sincerely hoping for a return to good health does not mean someone doesn't give a shit. Unlike your feeling for me, Tucker, I don't hate you. Don't project tone of voice or body language into text. I was being sincere and I still am but ny issue is you implied that you would be getting back to the discussion and you never did. I really wouldn't have an issue with that if you weren't hostile to begin with.

Harping on about how I should have come back after facing a health crisis and being busy with school is indicative of someone who doesn't give a shit. I was hosptialized after I sent you that PM. I subsequently fell into a deep depression about my lack medical care. Then other things happened that needed attending to. The last thing on my mind was to come back here and address you. But it's all about you, though, and the severe damage to your ego when someone doesn't finish a conversation with you.

Now here we are having a two part discussion and you left out replying to the the other subject of this discussion. Are you done with that conversation?

I am. I'm conceding everything I've said about the scenario you put forth. Martin would not be arrested for being a black teenager shooting and killing someone, particularly in Florida which has an overly racist past. If he had used the stand your ground law as a defense, it would not have been controversial. The liberals who hate that laww would not be up in arms. I will disregard the content in Hamilton's post too, comments I would have made. Everything in your scenario would have been peachy and we'd all be spared 20+ page threads.

Please accept my concession as I move on to other things, greater things.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't know what else to say. I got wrapped up in school with demanding courseloads, preparing lessons, and teaching. The only reason I'm here now is because I'm on spring break.

Harping on about how I should have come back after facing a health crisis and being busy with school is indicative of someone who doesn't give a shit. I was hosptialized after I sent you that PM. I subsequently fell into a deep depression about my lack medical care. Then other things happened that needed attending to. The last thing on my mind was to come back here and address you. But it's all about you, though, and the severe damage to your ego when someone doesn't finish a conversation with you.

It is entirely possible to give a shit about your health situation but still be irritated with your conduct.

I am. I'm conceding everything I've said about the scenario you put forth. Martin would not be arrested for being a black teenager shooting and killing someone, particularly in Florida which has an overly racist past. If he had used the stand your ground law as a defense, it would not have been controversial. The liberals who hate that laww would not be up in arms. I will disregard the content in Hamilton's post too, comments I would have made. Everything in your scenario would have been peachy and we'd all be spared 20+ page threads.

Please accept my concession as I move on to other things, greater things.

I see a lot of potential for interesting discussion here. Instead you blow it all way continuing to be an asshole.

I think there would be controversy. I think Martin would not have been charged and I do have doubt because of the racism in Florida but the evidence we have seen so far in this particular case fro from those directly involved, besides Zimmerman, does not support a conclusion of racism. It doesn't rule it out either. What I'm interested in discussing is what reasoning is used to take that step from doubt to conclusion. You, and Gil, have concluded that Martin would be charged and you base this off of Florida's history. Do you think it is right or constructive to determine that individuals are racist because they live in a certain location?

[Spoonist]

wtf KS people walk away from discussions all the time, JLTucker isn't even in the top 20 of those who do so regularily.
You are clearly being a dick due to vendetta issues.

[Kamakazie Sith]

wtf KS people walk away from discussions all the time, JLTucker isn't even in the top 20 of those who do so regularily.
You are clearly being a dick due to vendetta issues.

We settled the issue via PM.

Do you have anything to add to the other topic?

[Spoonist]

wtf KS people walk away from discussions all the time, JLTucker isn't even in the top 20 of those who do so regularily.
You are clearly being a dick due to vendetta issues.

We settled the issue via PM.

Do you have anything to add to the other topic?

Nice evade there... So you are allowed to tangent but I aint allowed to respond? Sweet freud.

And nope don't have too much to add that couldn't be better covered in the regular gun control topics.

[Kamakazie Sith]

wtf KS people walk away from discussions all the time, JLTucker isn't even in the top 20 of those who do so regularily.
You are clearly being a dick due to vendetta issues.

We settled the issue via PM.

Do you have anything to add to the other topic?

Nice evade there... So you are allowed to tangent but I aint allowed to respond? Sweet freud.

And nope don't have too much to add that couldn't be better covered in the regular gun control topics.

Uh. You responded, man. I was just letting you know that the matter is settled via PM, like it should have been to start with. My fault.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, let's put that little distraction aside and see if we can salvage an interesting discussion out of this ...

I think there would be controversy. I think Martin would not have been charged and I do have doubt because of the racism in Florida but the evidence we have seen so far in this particular case fro from those directly involved, besides Zimmerman, does not support a conclusion of racism. It doesn't rule it out either. What I'm interested in discussing is what reasoning is used to take that step from doubt to conclusion. You, and Gil, have concluded that Martin would be charged and you base this off of Florida's history. Do you think it is right or constructive to determine that individuals are racist because they live in a certain location?

In any case, I don't want to agree with Tucker or Gil, so try to take my point here as independent of their own.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that, in this hypothetical scenario of Martin shooting Zimmerman, that the PROBABILITY of Martin being charged would be higher than is the case with Zimmerman IRL. It has nothing to do with it being Florida. But (and correct me if I am wrong, I don't have a lot of time right now to fact check thoroughly) the statistical evidence in the US pretty strongly indicates that, all else being equal, race can be a strong factor in determining the actions of the police/courts. Even when you remove the race issue, Zimmerman's history with the neighborhood watch and such could potentially impact the way the police believe Martin's account of the story. Race aside, police MAY be more likely to believe a known neighborhood watch cooperator than a kid in a hoodie that isn't from that neighborhood.

I am not saying that Martin DEFINITELY would have been charged. Similarly, I am not saying that race was a major or determining factor in Zimmerman not being charged, as I don't necessarily believe that the arguments are equivalent.

For the purposes of discussing the issue, do you or do you not agree that in the hypothetical where the situations are reversed, the chances of Martin being charged would have been higher, even if only nominally so? If not, is it because you disagree with my reasoning here, or because you think other factors are more important in this instance?

[Kamakazie Sith]

In any case, I don't want to agree with Tucker or Gil, so try to take my point here as independent of their own.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that, in this hypothetical scenario of Martin shooting Zimmerman, that the PROBABILITY of Martin being charged would be higher than is the case with Zimmerman IRL. It has nothing to do with it being Florida. But (and correct me if I am wrong, I don't have a lot of time right now to fact check thoroughly) the statistical evidence in the US pretty strongly indicates that, all else being equal, race can be a strong factor in determining the actions of the police/courts. Even when you remove the race issue, Zimmerman's history with the neighborhood watch and such could potentially impact the way the police believe Martin's account of the story. Race aside, police MAY be more likely to believe a known neighborhood watch cooperator than a kid in a hoodie that isn't from that neighborhood.

I am not saying that Martin DEFINITELY would have been charged. Similarly, I am not saying that race was a major or determining factor in Zimmerman not being charged, as I don't necessarily believe that the arguments are equivalent.

For the purposes of discussing the issue, do you or do you not agree that in the hypothetical where the situations are reversed, the chances of Martin being charged would have been higher, even if only nominally so? If not, is it because you disagree with my reasoning here, or because you think other factors are more important in this instance?

I do believe the chances of Martin being charged are higher for all those reasons listed. What I am pointing out is that before we had the facts everyone, including myself, made conclusions regarding the mindset of others. Racism is still a problem in this country. However, assuming people are racist before the facts come in is damaging in its own way.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Agreed completely.

[Zaune]

New development. Zimmerman's lawyers just released a bunch of photos and text messages taken from Trayvon Martin's cellphone showing him... Well, being a fairly typical US teenager, to be honest. He smoked weed, he got into playground scuffles at school, he photographed himself posing with a pistol (which was probably borrowed or a gun-range rental) and was making inquiries about buying one for himself.

It's plain and simple character assasination, and I'm not going to dignify it by sending referrer traffic the Daily Mail's way about it. (Yes, surprise surprise, they seem to be the first UK paper to pick up on it.)

[Gaidin]

How is it character assassination for there to be photos showing that a teenager is, oh holy shit, not the angel his mother wants him to be remembered as and is in fact a teenager and maybe in fact one with a rebellious streak in certain parts of his personality?