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Kamakazie Sith wrote:That question was posed by Scrib. I didn't properly tailor my quote tags.Flagg wrote: It's my understanding that you cannot be successfully sued under this law and part of the reason for its passage was due to people who killed in self defense later being sued for wrongful death after being cleared by the police.
I think that right there shows how lazy or willfuly incompetant the Police are in this case.Elfdart wrote: The "stand your ground" law is a red herring in this case because the fat sissy was told by the dispatcher NOT to follow the kid, and that the police would handle it.
As far as justice is concerned, it's a red herring. As far as the reasonable intent of the law is concerned, it's a red herring. As far as the courts are concerned- remember where the phrase 'red herring' comes from.Elfdart wrote:Another fat sissy in Florida who is so scared of black guys that he compounds his own racism with a crime. The case of Rep. Bob Allen was hilarious, but this case is barely a step removed from the lynching of Emmit Till.
The "stand your ground" law is a red herring in this case because the fat sissy was told by the dispatcher NOT to follow the kid, and that the police would handle it.
Hrm?The Yosemite Bear wrote:I heard one former prosecutor say last night that the only time he's ever seen a local police acting this one sided is with a criminal informant.
This was a major point in our CHL class back before Texas passed a castle doctrine: If you acted in self-defense, you were 99% likely to get arrested and charged, no matter how it presented. The first officer on the scene could be your best friend or worst nightmare as his initial assessment of the situation could determine most cases. "Did you retreat enough?" which was an extremely subjective criteria to define, was also the main point of most prosecution cases.MKSheppard wrote:Before this; typical reaction to a shoot in Florida by someone who wasn't a cop was for the PD to arrest everyone, put them in jail and wait for the courts to settle it 24 months later.
Um, So?Dalton wrote:Norton Bonaparte, the City Manager of Sanford, is a weaselly fucking goofus. He spent his entire interview just now giving non-answers and studiously sticking to his talking points.
How nice of him to try and revive him before deciding to cover up for Zimmerman like he did a lt's son who attacked a homeless black man. They really need to clean house at Sanford PD.SANFORD - Sergeant Anthony Raimondo, the patrol officer who was initially in charge of the scene on the night Trayvon Martin was killed, was also involved in an alleged police cover-up in 2010. Raimondo was at the center of a controversy that ensued when Justin Collison, the son of a Sanford police lieutenant and part of a prominent family, punched a homeless black man but was not arrested.
Local news station WFTV broke this story, which revealed that preferential treatment had been given to Collison by police after he attacked and broke the nose of his African-American victim, Sherman Ware.
Raimondo was the patrol sergeant in charge on the night Collison, who is white, was first detained. Raimondo made the decision not to press charges against Collison, which a former Sanford elected official told theGrio was at the behest of his superiors.
Video evidence of Collison punching Ware from behind and driving his face into a pole was posted on YouTube. Despite Sanford police being in possession of this video, no charges were filed against Collison until local news outlets exposed the cover-up.
One month later, mounting pressure over this oversight led to Collison's arrest. He was subsequently charged with felony battery and disorderly conduct, and paid restitution to Ware for medical bills and personal damages. Collison also made donations to area non-profits at Ware's request, as part of his compensation.
These events sparked an investigation by the Seminole County Sheriff's Office into the conduct of the nine officers who were on duty the night Collison was wrongfully released without being charged. Ultimately, the scandal led to the retirement of former Sanford Police Chief Brian Tooley, who announced his retirement the day after Sanford police authorities met with the local NAACP over the incident.
Some perceived this case as part of a pattern of law enforcement abuses that have taken place in central Florida since early 2010, due to a lack of police oversight.
Currently, "Raimondo has three validated complaints and another one pending," WFTV reported on March 16, 2012.
A former Sanford city commissioner, who wishes to remain unidentified, told theGrio that Raimondo attempted to give Martin mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on the night the youth was killed, an account that has been confirmed by the police report from that night.
TheGrio has reached out to Sanford police department Public Information Officer Sgt. David Morgenstern about Raimondo's involvement in both incidents, and is awaiting comment. Officers of the Sanford police department have been ordered not to comment on the Trayvon Martin case because it is under both state and federal investigations, theGrio also learned.
Follow Alexis Garrett Stodghill on Twitter at @lexisb
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman so aggressively as to give him legitimate cause to fear for his life, he did it after Zimmerman incited him through pursuit. That makes it imperfect self-defense in many jurisdictions--i.e., manslaughter.
It was more the demeanor; the mindless drone with the deer-in-headlights look. A blase attitude. He looked useless and lost.MKSheppard wrote:Um, So?Dalton wrote:Norton Bonaparte, the City Manager of Sanford, is a weaselly fucking goofus. He spent his entire interview just now giving non-answers and studiously sticking to his talking points.
If i was City Manager of a suburb of Orlando, FL known before this week as "that place where the Amtrak Auto Train stops" and this huge shitpile dropped into my lap, I'd be doing what my lawyer told me; to avoid my city being liable.
From what I've heard that testimony was dropped in much later.Flagg wrote:If Zimmerman attacked him as the telephone witness claims, Martin had the right under the 'stand your ground' law to defend himself with physical force, so even if he was on top of Zimmerman punching him like one witness claims, Zimmerman would still be guilty of murder for shooting him since he was the aggressor.
Flagg wrote:The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman so aggressively as to give him legitimate cause to fear for his life, he did it after Zimmerman incited him through pursuit. That makes it imperfect self-defense in many jurisdictions--i.e., manslaughter.
If Zimmerman attacked him as the telephone witness claims, Martin had the right under the 'stand your ground' law to defend himself with physical force, so even if he was on top of Zimmerman punching him like one witness claims, Zimmerman would still be guilty of murder for shooting him since he was the aggressor.
Although I don't believe him, Zimmerman claims that he was attacked from behind while walking back to his car. If that were true, it would probably be justifiable self-defense. The fact that Zimmerman followed Martin for a while in his car beforehand wouldn't change that.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman so aggressively as to give him legitimate cause to fear for his life, he did it after Zimmerman incited him through pursuit. That makes it imperfect self-defense in many jurisdictions--i.e., manslaughter.
Coming from a hispanic background I can safely say the majority of hispanics, especially 1st generation, in my experience are racist against blacks and much more open about it too. Strangely they become more racist after coming to this country relative to before. In my experience, the other minorities are much more open about their racism towards blacks than white people are.Akhlut wrote:Why does his being Hispanic mean he can't possibly be racist? I know that there are a not insignificant number of Hispanics out there who are very racist against black people. Minorities can be racist too, so just saying he is one doesn't mean shit.
It's interesting. I'm white and Canadian so I will likely never experience anything close to this and it makes it all to easy to forget that racism is a major factor in the world.weemadando wrote:That letter, for all its hyperbole is sadly correct. Far too correct.
There we go.When confronted by an armed individual, assume that this person is the police. As such, begin by placing your hands behind your head, fingers interlaced. This will assure that in the eventuality that you are shot and executed, there will be minimum opportunity for analysts and pundits to later ponder if you were the aggressor. Keeping your fingers behind your head is key as it prevents your fingerprints from ending up on your assailant or his weapon. If at all possible, turn your back on the person (whom we will assume always to be the police). In this manner, you will be shot in the back, another telltale sign that you were the victim.
You will not survive your encounter, so it is important to remember to show investigators, the courts, and critics alike that you were in fact the victim. This will be difficult as the assumption is ever-present that somehow, in some way, you did something wrong. That perhaps there was something different you could have, should have done. Perhaps you should have worn something different or walked in a less suspicious manner. I assure you, my son, this is not the case. Regardless of your actions, you were not meant to survive. All you can hope for is an easier postmortem investigation. This will be of some comfort to your mother and I as we cope through your loss, and so I ask you to follow these directions carefully.
Be clear and concise in your cries for help. This will not in any way add to the chance that you will survive the encounter. Instead, it serves to ensure that bystanders and anyone recording just the audio of the encounter will have a clearer depiction of what is happening. Phrases such as "help me!" are not enough. You must be clear. "Please do not shoot me! I am just a kid!" will alert others to the fact that it is you that is about to be shot, rather than your assailant. "I do NOT have a weapon! Please don't shoot me!" further emphasizes that you are unarmed (for after your death, no one is ever certain).
You may be tempted to avoid such circumstance through excessive precaution. Know that this is futile. You might choose to avoid visiting public spaces such as parks and recreational facilities to minimize your encounters with police. This automatically makes you a suspect, for the one time you do happen across a public space, you will be the unknown, an unfamiliar Black male, and a target for execution. You might also avoid after-school activities, and commute to and from school only with large numbers of people. This too is pointless, for they will come to your school and they will place guns at your temple, under the direction of your principal. Success will not be your shield, as your accomplishments hide not your race. Even with a college education, you will be subject to unreasonable circumstances, and will likely be killed.
Most of all, you may try to avoid driving, for this is where you will most likely be stopped, and possibly killed. This may offer some limited comfort. In my teen years, by not having a car I avoided many of the humiliations endured by my cousins and friends. One of my cousins, a doctor whose father is a diplomat, can tell you of the time he was told to get out of his father’s vehicle (which bore a diplomatic license plate) and lie face down, spread eagle on the side of the highway. He was on his way home from a residency interview. The same police officers came to the other side of the van and asked his white brother-in-law if everything was okay.
Know that we have already tried to take these precautions for you. We agonized daily over what neighborhood to raise you in and what schools you should attend. We thought about being actively involved in your afterschool activities and your PTA. In the end, we realized none of it mattered. Your greatest achievements will be fluff for your eulogy.
My son, you will die. You will perish at the hands of those who fear you. Your death will be likened to a hunting accident. The best you can hope for is that it is not your body that dies, only your spirit, as has been the case with me, your father. When you are older, you will know that you were never meant to be a man. Your very existence, your lifespan and quality of life, are indeed not determined by a heavenly Father, but by the complex societal trappings that deem you, somehow, to be faulty, potentially dangerous, and ill-equipped to exist on equal footing. My son, how could you ever be a man? My prayer for you is that you will grow to adulthood and you will have a family of your own, but know that even in adulthood (should you ever make it there) manhood is a plateau upon which you will never stand.
A man holds at least some sway over his fate, for this is God-given. A man is free to protect his person and his loved ones, for this is just. Most of all, a man is granted autonomy. My son, in this country you were never meant to be a man. From the moment you adjust your behavior to avoid being perceived as a threat (walking with extra precision in a white neighborhood or carefully avoiding walking too close to a white person), you have been stripped of the opportunity to define your own existence, of the opportunity to be a man.
You will read that slaves sometimes spared their children from the cruelty of their condition by ending the child's life. It is out of my own vanity that your mother and I could not do this. I need your inevitable suffering to be witnessed by many. I need you to feel the confusion and helplessness I felt everyday growing up, and continue to feel now. At times, I truly felt I was going mad witnessing the consistent assault against and eradication of us. I need you to experience this abomination so that I know I am not riddled with insanity, but that in fact what I have seen over so many years, the clear and concentrated intent to eradicate masculinity from Black males, is real. Perhaps it is merely for selfish reasons that I hoped to have a son, so that I might observe firsthand what has been weighed upon me all these years. For my vanity, for my selfishness, I apologize. You will needlessly suffer in this world for no other reason than you were brought into it by a Black mother and father. All I can leave you with is what Rudyard Kipling wrote to his unborn son:
"If you can fill the unforgiving minute
with sixty seconds worth of distance run
Yours is the earth and all that's in it
And what's more you'll be a man my son"
His words are inspiring, but the expanse of their promise is not meant for you. My words to you are much more simple, more appropriate for your lot in life:
Live with humility, that you may die with grace, for this is all we have been allowed on this earth, in this country.
It does have a valuable piece of advice. Do as you're told when that person is holding a gun. It doesn't matter if they're the police or not. I will point out a difference that I've witnessed countless times which continues to bewilder me each time I see it. The difference is when a masked violent criminal is pointing a gun at people every does what they're told immediately and with a sense of urgency. However, when it's the police ordering people the ground some will comply, others will stand there and argue, others will stand there and try to explain or sometimes they will start walking closer while doing those things.Aaron MkII wrote:http://www.urbancusp.com/newspost/the-b ... black-son/
A rather dark letter, posting from my tablet so if a passing mod could edit in the article I'd be thankful.
Not exactly. The kid would have the right to defend himself, but if he got into a position where he were on top of Zimmerman and punching him in the face, that would go well beyond anything we call "self defense".Flagg wrote:The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Even if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman so aggressively as to give him legitimate cause to fear for his life, he did it after Zimmerman incited him through pursuit. That makes it imperfect self-defense in many jurisdictions--i.e., manslaughter.
If Zimmerman attacked him as the telephone witness claims, Martin had the right under the 'stand your ground' law to defend himself with physical force, so even if he was on top of Zimmerman punching him like one witness claims, Zimmerman would still be guilty of murder for shooting him since he was the aggressor.
If the policeman has just ordered someone to the ground and holds a gun he probably means it. Walking towards him when he has given that order is suicidal in my opinion, because obviously he has judged the situation pretty bleak and will be nervous and will probably think of that strange guy who keeps on walking towards him as a threat. The assumption that policemen are not murderers is indeed far preferrable to them being brutal thugs, but on the other hand, I would also assume that when a police orders me to ground, he has some actual reason for doing so.Simon_Jester wrote:What you're seeing is that tacit assumption that policemen are not murderers, while masked criminals are. Bewildering and incredibly stupid, especially the 'walk closer' ones, but would you rather live in a society where people didn't make that assumption?
