Trayvon Martin Case (Zimmerman charged; 2nd deg. murder)

[Losonti Tokash]

On my phone so I apologize for not specifically quoting. In regards to treatment of injuries, I can only speak for myself, but I generally offer care for anything above a scrape or minor injury. Even then I'd offer an alcohol swab and a band-aid because why not. Anyone with head trauma, particularly from having your head smashed into the ground(dirt not being much softer than concrete for this purpose) I would STRONGLY encourage to accept immediate treatment and transport to a hospital as they are at a high risk of a brain injury. I assume that Zimmerman refused this care and was not sufficiently impared by these injuries so as to fall under implied consent but can't be sure. At any rate, head wounds also tend to bleed and bleed and bleed especially without a dressing in place so if there's no blood on him shortly thereafter (new clothes or no) it would be implied he didn't really suffer any cuts of lacerations to the face or head. Additionally, standing orders for most orgs is to assume a spinal injury with any trauma so if he was under care of EMTs he shouldn't even be up and walking around and should be under c-spine immobilization.

[Themightytom]

I would like to apologize in advance if I somehow missed this point reading twelve pages of post, but

Isn't this case reflective more of the inherent flaw in Stand Your Ground legislation more than anything else? We passed one for New Hampshire in September and the police officers I know described pretty much this scenario during an argument. An indirect quote would be something like "Any asshole with a gun can shoot whoever he wants, and we can no longer go after them unless we can prove the victim didn't start a confrontation, and of course the vic would be dead, and probably black with a giant family, knowing our luck"

And the rebuttal was "yeah but neighborhood watch volunteers who are out there anyway, would be beter able to defend themselves." and the first officer pretty much repeated, "yeah, any asshole with a gun."

You can see how at the time I said "you guys seriously take a dump on diversity training" but in retrospect, I can see they were describing how the situation pretty much INVITED abuse. I'm still pro gun ownership, but I think legislation that governs conduct really needs to enforce caution on the part of the armed party.

[Luke Skywalker]

Just to state the obvious, the thread title is making a silly generalization based on anecdotal evidence. This happens everywhere, all the time. Florida is actually not a very racist place, in comparison to other places. My mom was Asian, and she raised me in Gainesville, and never mentioned any problems at all.

[Dalton]

Just to state the obvious, the thread title is making a silly generalization based on anecdotal evidence.

It's just the same sensationalistic New York Post-level type of slug that I tend to see around here. I'm going to change it.

[Simon_Jester]

Did it go down that way in real life? I don't know, but AT THIS POINT it's no more or less plausible than Zimmerman's account of what took place.

I don't think it contradicts any more or less of the information we believe we know, but... I don't know. I'd still bet against that, but I'm not going to keep jumping up and down and yelling about the issue.

I don't know what to call that- conceded? Maybe. I know what I expect to see if all the evidence is released, but that isn't the same as being sure that the evidence will follow my expectations. I predict things that don't happen all the time.

[aerius]

Bottom line is anything that anyone in the public comes up with right now is just a reflection of their biases & preconceptions of the incident. I have my own thoughts as to what happened but at this point it's just useless speculation, and the same is true of anyone who isn't privy to the facts of the case. I could easily come up with dozens of plausible scenarios which are consistent with what little we know, and I can make either party completely guilty, innocent, or anything in between.

Right now the only person who knows for certain what happened is Zimmerman, I'd think his lawyer knows as well but you never know. The police & other investigators and authorities involved are working to put together the events, how far along they are only they know. Sooner or later enough facts will come out to piece together the events of that day, we're not there yet, not even close.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't recall Zimmerman stating he was beaten badly. Just that he was punched in the face and then Martin was slamming his head into the ground. Police reports say he was bleeding from the face and back of the head. I don't recall severity being mentioned. Again, you don't have to already be seriously injured to reasonable fear for your life.

Are you joshing me? Zimmerman's brother has been giving tons of interviews talking about how badly Martin was kicking his ass and Zimmerman was busted up and barely conscious. That the medical records would show how badly Zimmerman was hurt and that if he hadn't have shot Martin, he would have been killed by the attack. All of which Zimmerman relayed to his brother to relay to the media, because they guy himself refuses to be seen in public and show the injuries himself that apparently he brutally sustained.

Sir, if I were joshing you there would be no need to ask.

I haven't paid any attention to what Zimmerman's brother has said. He wasn't there. His lawyer wasn't there. When Zimmerman's account was released to the media by police no such claims were made. So far, Zimmerman hasn't commented on his injuries. However, the police have; "When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head...Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day." The severity of these injuries isn't commented on.

This isn't directed at you Gil. However, I did not hypothesize that the police cleaned Zimmerman's clothes, gave him new clothes, took him to the store and bought him new clothes or anything like that. I've seen this remarked several times in this thread. The originator of that idea, in a sarcastic manner, was Gil. Not me. If anyone made such an assertion in a serious manner you could bet your life that they did not operate public safety. The clothes in the police security video are clearly the same clothes he was wearing when this incident began

[Thanas]

I haven't paid any attention to what Zimmerman's brother has said. He wasn't there. His lawyer wasn't there. When Zimmerman's account was released to the media by police no such claims were made. So far, Zimmerman hasn't commented on his injuries. However, the police have; "When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head...Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day." The severity of these injuries isn't commented on.

What, did the swelling on his lip magically disappear or why doesn't it show up?

And why is there no blood whatsoever on him?

[Kamakazie Sith]

What, did the swelling on his lip magically disappear or why doesn't it show up?

And why is there no blood whatsoever on him?

I think we've been through this. The video isn't high quality, however, without additional evidence it is damaging to Zimmerman's case.

[Gil Hamilton]

I haven't paid any attention to what Zimmerman's brother has said. He wasn't there. His lawyer wasn't there. When Zimmerman's account was released to the media by police no such claims were made. So far, Zimmerman hasn't commented on his injuries. However, the police have; "When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head...Paramedics gave him first aid but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day." The severity of these injuries isn't commented on.

His brother has been claiming that all the information he's been saying has come directly from Zimmerman's account to him. If it is not true, why have Zimmerman or his lawyer come forward to contradict the claim and stress that Zimmerman's brother doesn't speak for them, in addition to the injuries not being so severe?

By your account, Zimmerman doesn't even have to claim that he was injured at all, merely that he was in a position to potentially be severely injured/killed. Why let his brother go on CNN and claim that Martin had beat him up so badly that Zimmerman was barely conscious when he shot the kid, if that is not HIS claim?

[Simon_Jester]

His brother has been claiming that all the information he's been saying has come directly from Zimmerman's account to him. If it is not true, why have Zimmerman or his lawyer come forward to contradict the claim and stress that Zimmerman's brother doesn't speak for them, in addition to the injuries not being so severe?

They might be too busy worrying about the inevitable court case that's coming up to spend time worrying about Zimmerman's idiot brother making him look bad in the national news. They can always wait 24 more hours to say "my brother's an idiot, don't listen to him." They can't wait 24 more hours to get all the i's dotted and t's crossed on court-related paperwork.

[aerius]

Additionally, if you don't say anything to the media it can't come back and bite you in the ass if the case goes to trial. Let's say Zimmerman or his lawyer makes a statement to the media and ooops it gets mis-quoted or taken out of context. The case then goes to trial and fuck, now they got a problem. The correct thing to do, especially when there's a goddamn media frenzy is to disappear out of sight and shut the fuck up until the trial is over or until the investigators decide that he's not going to be charged. If there's civil suits involved then he stays low until those are concluded, don't talk to anyone until everything is done.

[Kamakazie Sith]

His brother has been claiming that all the information he's been saying has come directly from Zimmerman's account to him. If it is not true, why have Zimmerman or his lawyer come forward to contradict the claim and stress that Zimmerman's brother doesn't speak for them, in addition to the injuries not being so severe?

By your account, Zimmerman doesn't even have to claim that he was injured at all, merely that he was in a position to potentially be severely injured/killed. Why let his brother go on CNN and claim that Martin had beat him up so badly that Zimmerman was barely conscious when he shot the kid, if that is not HIS claim?

I'm not going to speculate. I'm explaining to you why I personally do not pay attention to those statements. Though, even if we do. What does it change? What is a person who was nearly knocked unconscious suppose to look like? This is assuming that Zimmerman wasn't panicking and simply just felt like he was going to be knocked out or was just dazed by the impact. You're making assumptions about what you think he would look like and ignoring statements made by police regarding Zimmerman's physical appearance.

instead of making assumptions let us go off of that statement. Would a fat lip, bloody nose, and bloody lacerations all three of unknown severity show up on the security video? You assume it would. However, we don't have anything to compare it against. It'd be nice if we could see a person walk through the security video with known injuries so we could verify.

[Kamakazie Sith]

On my phone so I apologize for not specifically quoting. In regards to treatment of injuries, I can only speak for myself, but I generally offer care for anything above a scrape or minor injury. Even then I'd offer an alcohol swab and a band-aid because why not. Anyone with head trauma, particularly from having your head smashed into the ground(dirt not being much softer than concrete for this purpose) I would STRONGLY encourage to accept immediate treatment and transport to a hospital as they are at a high risk of a brain injury. I assume that Zimmerman refused this care and was not sufficiently impared by these injuries so as to fall under implied consent but can't be sure. At any rate, head wounds also tend to bleed and bleed and bleed especially without a dressing in place so if there's no blood on him shortly thereafter (new clothes or no) it would be implied he didn't really suffer any cuts of lacerations to the face or head. Additionally, standing orders for most orgs is to assume a spinal injury with any trauma so if he was under care of EMTs he shouldn't even be up and walking around and should be under c-spine immobilization.

I just want to clarify a few things here. As far as policy and/or training goes are you required to bandage all wounds or only specific wounds?

In my personal and professional experience not all head wounds bleed profusely but most do. Do you agree with that statement?

[SirNitram]

I increasingly wonder if this was not so much race but the inherent 'Us v Them' of Gated Communities. Anyone whose spoken with residents of them or lived among them know the bunker mentality formed, the idea that outside of the gates, the unrelenting crime and murder.

[Anguirus]

Hey, had to take a bit of a break from this thread. Was spending hours on it that I can't afford to, and was having an argument with SVPD that I didn't have any intention of getting into. Since he and I don't seem to disagree on anything that's really important directly related to the case (Zimmerman's judgment highly questionable, independent investigation of the police conduct seems warranted) he can feel free to consider this a concession on all outstanding points that he and me alone were disagreeing with.

Stuff just seems to keep dribbling out, and it's very frustrating that everything still seems to be up in the air. With a trial we would get much more complete answers to these questions.

Anyway, development of interest in the case today was this

George Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, shot Trayvon, an unarmed 17-year-old, during a one-on-one confrontation Feb. 26.

Before the shot, one of them can be heard screaming for help.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

[Haruko]

I wonder if that expert will still be given a sample of Trayvon's voice, if there is a recording of him that his family or friends at some point took.

Oh, by the way, there is an update with a new title ("2 experts"):

Trayvon Martin shooting: It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say

As the Trayvon Martin controversy splinters into a debate about self-defense, a central question remains: Who was heard crying for help on a 911 call in the moments before the teen was shot?

A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.

Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story.

'Scientific certainty'

On a rainy night in late February, a woman called 911 to report someone crying out for help in her gated Sanford community, Retreat at Twin Lakes.

Though several of her neighbors eventually called authorities, she phoned early enough for dispatchers to hear the panicked cries and the gunshot that took Trayvon Martin's life.

George Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, shot Trayvon, an unarmed 17-year-old, during a one-on-one confrontation Feb. 26.

Before the shot, one of them can be heard screaming for help.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

After the Sentinel contacted Owen, he used software called Easy Voice Biometrics to compare Zimmerman's voice to the 911 call screams.

"I took all of the screams and put those together, and cut out everything else," Owen says.

The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

Forensic voice identification is not a new or novel concept; in fact, a recent U.S. Department of Justice committee report notes that federal interest in the technology "has a history of nearly 70 years."

In the post 9-11 world, Owen says, voice identification is "the main biometric tool" used to track international criminals, as well as terrorists.

"These people don't leave fingerprints, but they do still need to talk to one another," he says.

'The home run'

Though the term "biometric analysis" may sound futuristic, it basically just means using personal characteristics for identification. A fingerprint scanner is an example of a biometric device.

Much as the ridges of a human hand produce a fingerprint, each human voice has unique, distinguishable traits, Owen says. "They're all particular to the individual."

Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.

The technology Owen used to analyze the Zimmerman tape has a wide range of applications, including national security and international policing, he said. A recently as January, Owen used the same technology to identify accused murderer Sheila Davalloo in a 911 call made almost a decade ago.

Owen testified that it was Davalloo, accused of stabbing another woman nine times in a condo in Shippan, Conn., who reported the killing to police from a pay phone in November 2002.

Davalloo was convicted, according to news reports.

Owen says the audio from Zimmerman's call is much better quality than the 911 call in the Davalloo case. Voice identification experts judge the quality based on a signal-to-noise ratio; in other words, comparing the usable audio in a clip to the environmental noises that make a match difficult.

And the call on which the screams are heard is better quality than is necessary, Owen says.

"In our world, that's the home run," he says.

Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

Zimmerman's call to authorities minutes before the shooting provides a good standard for comparison, Primeau says, because it captures his voice both at rest and in an agitated state.

'CSI' effect

Only one person alive knows exactly what transpired in the moments immediately before Trayvon was fatally shot: Zimmerman, who has claimed he fired in self-defense.

Zimmerman told police he was walking back to his SUV after a brief foot pursuit of Martin, and the teen confronted and attacked him, punching him and slamming his head into the pavement.

Arriving police said Zimmerman was bloodied. One officer wrote in a police report that he overheard Zimmerman telling a paramedic, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

Angela Corey, the special prosecutor assigned to the case, has yet to decide whether to charge Zimmerman, send the case to a grand jury or decide against charging.

If Zimmerman's self-defense claim is tested at trial, legal experts say a forensic identification of the voice in the 911 audio could be key evidence, either in Zimmerman's favor or to his detriment.

Still, Maine-based audio enhancement expert Arlo West says that today's juries sometimes seem reluctant to accept evidence that's any less conclusive than what they're used to seeing on television.

"I call it the 'CSI' effect," he says, referring to "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation," the popular — if not always realistic — forensics-based TV drama. "You get in front of a jury, and they expect a miracle."

[Flagg]

Not exactly surprising since his mother recognized his voice on the 911 calls. Still, just another foot dug for Zimmermans grave.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Good developments. Finally looks like they have some decent evidence that Zimmerman isn't telling the truth.

[aerius]

This is why I don't trust a single thing I see in the media about this case, and why I'm waiting to see the actual police reports.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/eri ... _blog.html

Excerpt:

NBC told this blog today that it would investigate its handling of a piece on the “Today” show that ham-handedly abridged the conversation between George Zimmerman and a dispatcher in the moments before the death of Trayvon Martin. A statement from NBC:

“We have launched an internal investigation into the editorial process surrounding this particular story.”

Great news right there. As exposed by Fox News and media watchdog site NewsBusters, the “Today” segment took this approach to a key part of the dispatcher call:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

Here’s how the actual conversation went down:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

The difference between what “Today” put on its air and the actual tape? Complete: In the “Today” version, Zimmerman volunteered that this person “looks black,” a sequence of events that would more readily paint Zimmerman as a racial profiler. In reality’s version, Zimmerman simply answered a question about the race of the person whom he was reporting to the police. Nothing prejudicial at all in responding to such an inquiry.

---

Also, this. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... roken-face

I'd say his nose looks a bit swollen in this screencap from the new videos


For reference, this is how his nose normally looks like


And that looks like a bleeding wound on the back of his head



To recap, NBC was caught pulling a Fox News worthy stunt to make Zimmerman look like a racist. ABC used low quality video and possibly doctored it as well to make the Zimmerman's head wound disappear.

[Simon_Jester]

This is why I don't trust a single thing I see in the media about this case, and why I'm waiting to see the actual police reports.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/eri ... _blog.html

...Conceded.

I know you didn't ask. I did it anyway.

[Anguirus]

Yeah, that is disgusting behavior on the part of NBC. I wasn't quite ready to draw any conclusions from that video either.

[Simon_Jester]

I let myself get sucked into the groupthink, and I kind of regret it now... I was that easy to fool.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yeah, that is disgusting behavior on the part of NBC. I wasn't quite ready to draw any conclusions from that video either.

Frankly, the only people that were ready to draw conclusions have very low standards for video. It isn't high quality when the letters on the back of the police vehicle are difficult to make out...

[Anguirus]

Aerius, you should know that there has been a police report released: Trayvon Martin Police Report I'm surprised it hasn't come up in the thread yet, actually.

"The black male had his hands underneath his body" is not good for Zimmerman's (hypothetical) defense. Especially since at least one eyewitness, Mary Kutcher, alleges that Martin was killed near-instantly (they heard the shot, ran outside, Martin had already fallen).

But again we are just playing games here. There are possible explanations that are favorable to Zimmerman. I will have a lot more patience about this case if the special prosecutor charges Zimmerman, which as I understand she could do at any time.