Trayvon Martin Case (Zimmerman charged; 2nd deg. murder)

[Dalton]

Apparently Trayvon Martin was shot in the chest at "intermediate" range.

[TimothyC]

Apparently Trayvon Martin was shot in the chest at "intermediate" range.

Quick, honest, and important question.

What do they mean by "intermediate range"?

Is it one foot, two feet, five feet, or something else?

I honestly don't know and think that it is probably an important definition with the way this story has been going.

Edit: From here (unknown accuracy) it looks like it was less than two feet.

[Cosmic Average]

Intermediate range is between one and 18 inches.

A leaked autopsy reportedly shows that the bullet that killed Florida teen Trayvon Martin was fired from "intermediate range," which one forensics expert said means anywhere from one to 18 inches away.

The autopsy, conducted by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also showed that 17-year-old Martin had one small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle, according to the news report. The report could back the account of George Zimmerman, the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain accused of killing Martin, who has said he fired into Martin's chest in self-defense as the youth was straddling and pummeling him.

The autopsy report was reviewed by NBC News, but not made available to the public. A spokesman for Volusia County, Fla., told Fox News the report was not made public and was leaked by someone other than the Volusia County Medical Examiner's Office. He noted attorneys for both Zimmerman and Martin had copies of it. He said the report will not be released while an active investigation of the Feb. 26 shooting remains underway.

Dr. Michael Baden, the former New York City medical examiner, said "intermediate" in such cases is defined as the muzzle of the gun being one to 18 inches away from the entry point when fired.

"If the muzzle is right against the skin, that’s a contact wound," Baden said. Anything beyond 18 inches is considered "distant" range in coroner's parlance, Baden said.

Link

Here's a textbook that describes it.

Which lines up with Zimmerman's account that he shot Trayvon while Trayvon was on top of him.

[aerius]

Truth might just match the fiction I wrote: here's what I wrote 6 weeks ago

And here's an article from today.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... -documents

Encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin 'avoidable,' cops said in report
By Jeff Weiner and Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel
10:05 p.m. EST, May 17, 2012

Sanford police believed the encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was "ultimately avoidable" if Zimmerman had "remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement.

"There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter," said one police report in hundreds of pages of evidence released Thursday.

The evidence — released by Special Prosecutor Angela Corey's office — included recorded witness interviews, dozens of photos, several videos, the autopsy and other investigative reports. It also confirmed that Sanford police at one point recommended a manslaughter charge.

The evidence, though, was also noteworthy for what was missing: any clear indication of who started the fight that led to the fatal shooting. The evidence released also did not include any of the statements 28-year-old Zimmerman made to police after the shooting.

Several witnesses told police they saw the two on the ground fighting, but investigators talked to no one who saw how the fight started. One witness said that 17-year-old Trayvon was on top.

And crime-lab experts found that Zimmerman's blood was on several pieces of evidence: his shirt, his jacket, his gun and Trayvon's shirt.

Among the pieces of evidence released was a photocopy of a photo taken of George Zimmerman at the scene. In it, he has a bloody, swollen nose.

Sanford Officer Michael Wagner pulled out his personal iPhone, he wrote in his report, and shot the photo. It appeared to him, Wagner wrote, that Zimmerman's nose was broken.

"I also saw that the back of Zimmerman's head was also bloodied," Wagner wrote.

Autopsy report released

Trayvon's autopsy showed that he died of a shot to the heart and that the gun was so close, it had left gunpowder burns on his skin.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement firearms expert Amy Siewert examined Trayvon's gray sweat shirt and gray hoodie for powder burns and wrote that she found them on both garments, prompting her to conclude that the muzzle of the gun was touching them when Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

The Volusia County Medical Examiner's Office found just one other injury on Trayvon's body: a small "abrasion" on one finger of his left hand. It also found THC — the active chemical in marijuana — in Trayvon's blood and urine.

And they gave definitive word on his size: 5-feet-11, 158 pounds. Zimmerman's family has said Zimmerman was 5-feet-8 and about 190 pounds.

"First of all, we're happy that all the evidence is out," said Benjamin Crump, the Martin family's attorney. Now, he said, everyone can see the totality of the evidence and "interpret it themselves."

Crump downplayed injuries to Zimmerman; Trayvon Martin, he said, "was fighting for his life" against "a man with a 9 mm gun. The best evidence, he said, was that police said the situation was ultimately avoidable.

"Whatever happened was because George Zimmerman made his decision to profile and pursue Trayvon Martin," Crump said. Based on the evidence, "you have to conclude that the only reason Trayvon Martin is dead is because George Zimmerman profiled him that night."

Girlfriend's statement

Zimmerman faces a second-degree-murder charge in Trayvon's Feb. 26 killing. He has claimed self-defense, telling investigators that the teen knocked him down and bashed his head against concrete.

Sanford police initially did not arrest Zimmerman, sparking outcry that developed into an international controversy. After weeks of rallies and protests, an arrest was made April 11.

Trayvon, an unarmed teenager from Miami Gardens, was returning from a local 7-Eleven to his father's girlfriend's house in the Retreat at Twin Lakes when he encountered Zimmerman.

An unnamed girl, the one identified by the Martin family attorney as Trayvon's girlfriend, may be one of the case's most important witnesses. She told prosecutors that she and Trayvon talked by cellphone on and off as he went to the store that evening.

She said Trayvon told her a white man in a vehicle was watching him. Trayvon started walking, and the call cut off, she said. When she called back, "he said this man is still following him."

The girl said Trayvon started running, "and then he said he lost him [Zimmerman]," she said, adding that the teen's "voice kind of changed … I could tell he was scared. And in a couple minutes, he said a man's following him again."

She said Trayvon asked, "Why are you following me for?" and a man's voice said, "What are you doing around here?" Then she heard a noise, and the call cut off.

It's not clear what happened next, but a fight ensued, police have said Zimmerman told them.

A 911 call shows that someone was screaming for help in the background, but two FBI audio specialists tried to identify who and concluded it was impossible. The quality of the recording was not good enough, and the screams didn't last long enough, they wrote.

The evidence packet does not include the report of two private-sector audio specialists, who are on the state's witness list. Earlier they told the Orlando Sentinel the voice heard crying for help was Trayvon's.

Two days after the shooting, police asked Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, whether those screams were his son's, according to a report by Sanford police lead Investigator Chris Serino. Tracy Martin said no, according to Serino's report. But since then, Trayvon's family has said the person screaming for help was Trayvon.

*

In a recorded interview with FDLE investigators, Zimmerman's father, Robert Zimmerman, said: "That is absolutely, positively George Zimmerman. Myself, my wife, family members and friends know that that is George Zimmerman. ...

"He sounded like he was screaming for his life," he said.

Zimmerman gave five statements to authorities, but Corey's office released none.

Several witnesses wrote statements for police after the shooting. One wrote that "after I completed the statement, I cried and told him I'll never forget the cries for help and wish I could have helped."

The investigator, however, "told me, 'If it makes you feel any better, the [cries] for help were not the person that died.' " The same witness told the investigator that it sounded like a boy's voice screaming.

Serino said statements made on scene to Officer Tim Smith "were corroborated by several witnesses and led to the possibility of this shooting having been in self-defense."

From the report:

One resident told the investigator that he heard a commotion and "witnessed a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help." He said the black male was on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches "MMA [mixed martial arts] style." He then heard a "pop" and saw the black male wearing the hoodie laid out on the grass.

In a recording from a March interview with the FDLE, Sanford Fire Rescue's Mike Brandy said that when he arrived at the scene of the shooting, he "saw [Trayvon] laying on the ground … police were there, they were already doing CPR."

The report by Serino said Trayvon had $40.15, Skittles candy, a red lighter and headphones in his pocket.

The documents were released as a result of the discovery process, during which state prosecutors are required to turn over their evidence to Zimmerman. They were made available to media outlets through a secure site on the Internet.

So let's see what we have here. Trayvon was high on weed, there was actual THC in his system not just THC metabolites. THC only stays in the system for a few hours while the person is actually high whereas the metabolites can be detected for a month or sometimes more. The injuries on both Martin and Zimmerman are consistent with the latter's story, as is the ballistics from the gunshot wound. The physical evidence matches and supports Zimmerman's story.

I am not a lawyer, but it's my opinion that Zimmerman is going to walk free unless the judge & jury are bought off.

[Sea Skimmer]

He may well walk on state murder charges, he might not even be taken to full trial, but he may well not walk on federal civil rights charges, and he's bound to loose the civil suit.

[Beowulf]

Pretty sure he's immune to state civil suit if he walks on the criminal case. Won't help him with federal civil rights charges, though.

[Terralthra]

Pretty sure he's immune to state civil suit if he walks on the criminal case. Won't help him with federal civil rights charges, though.

Incorrect. Easy, famous example - O.J. Simpson was found not guilty criminally, but found civilly liable when sued by the families of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman.

[Beowulf]

*Bzzzt* It depends on state law. Florida law states that:

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

If he's found to have been justified in the use of force, a civil case gets tossed pretty damn quickly, probably with a countersuit to get lawyer's fees. And yeah, keep reading the statue to paragraph (3) to see where the defendant can get that money.

OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder because the state couldn't prove he killed them. And it was CA, so different laws apply.

[Enigma]

<snip>

So let's see what we have here. Trayvon was high on weed, there was actual THC in his system not just THC metabolites. THC only stays in the system for a few hours while the person is actually high whereas the metabolites can be detected for a month or sometimes more. The injuries on both Martin and Zimmerman are consistent with the latter's story, as is the ballistics from the gunshot wound. The physical evidence matches and supports Zimmerman's story.

I am not a lawyer, but it's my opinion that Zimmerman is going to walk free unless the judge & jury are bought off.

Yet it all could have been avoidable if Zimmerman wasn't such a douchebag and decided to pursue Trayvon for no reason whatsoever.

Zimmerman took a life, period. If he gets off I feel that this will only boost his ego and he'll try pursuing "thugs" again.

I don't give a rat's ass about weed being in Trayvon's system. Anyone would defend themselves if confronted by an aggressor. If this was me? If someone kept following me, I'd do my best to lose the pursuer. If I can't shake him and the guy tries to be physical, I damn well try to stop him in any way I can. Knock the guy to the ground, get on top of him and punch, kick, stomp on the guy until I am sure that he will not get back up and then leave. High or not, maybe that was Trayvon's intention too. Trounce Zimmerman until he's unable to continue the pursuit.

But yeah, they way it is, Zimmerman will walk but he'll be hated for the rest of his life.

[RogueIce]

So the alleged expletive and the screams some experts said were from Martin? The FBI said the audio was too poor to confirm either one of them:

Investigators sent all the recordings to the FBI for analysis. They were asked to determine who was screaming, and also if Zimmerman might have used an expletive in describing Martin. Prosecutors said in their charging documents that Zimmerman said "(expletive) punks" in describing Martin as he walked in the neighborhood.

But the analyst who examined the recordings determined the sound quality is too poor to decipher what Zimmerman uttered. In regards to the screams during the altercation, there also wasn't enough clarity to determine who it is "due to extreme stress and unsuitable audio quality."

Link

[Mr Bean]

So lets review
Aerius if I chase you down and initiate an altercation and you do ANYTHING but run away, I have the ability to legally kill you. Man that is going to save so much time the next time I'm at the DMV.

I'm being extreme but I'm doing so to make a point. We have yet to know the chain of events between Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon and Trayvon ending up dead some minutes later. Because Zimmerman was not inspected we can't say one way another if those injuries were self inflicted or inflicted by Travyon. We have evidence indicating a struggle and we have bruising and damages to indicate that.

We still have a huge issue in the blood, or specifically the lack of it. Gravity being the cruel mistress it is, if you shoot someone standing above you in the chest your going to get a liter of the red stuff very quickly leaking out onto you and your surroundings. All statements and photos indicate what we saw Zimmerman walking into the police station with is what was being worn when he fire his weapon. If Trayvon was looming over him when he discharged his weapon he's rather blood free. We may find out later he changed clothes or was cleaned up by the police before putting him in the squad car.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So lets review
Aerius if I chase you down and initiate an altercation and you do ANYTHING but run away, I have the ability to legally kill you. Man that is going to save so much time the next time I'm at the DMV.

I'm being extreme but I'm doing so to make a point. We have yet to know the chain of events between Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon and Trayvon ending up dead some minutes later. Because Zimmerman was not inspected we can't say one way another if those injuries were self inflicted or inflicted by Travyon. We have evidence indicating a struggle and we have bruising and damages to indicate that.

That's a very extreme example since it is missing a key part.

The evidence isn't just of a struggle it is evidence that Zimmerman was on the losing side of that struggle. Also, you are incorrect. Zimmerman was inspected on scene and a photograph was taken of the back of his head. (See Cosmic Average post with ABC News link) "The original police report that night notes that the back of Zimmerman's head was wet, and that he was bleeding from the nose and head. "- Sure, it's possible that Zimmerman went home and said "my bloody nose isn't enough" and then broke his nose.

We still have a huge issue in the blood, or specifically the lack of it. Gravity being the cruel mistress it is, if you shoot someone standing above you in the chest your going to get a liter of the red stuff very quickly leaking out onto you and your surroundings. All statements and photos indicate what we saw Zimmerman walking into the police station with is what was being worn when he fire his weapon. If Trayvon was looming over him when he discharged his weapon he's rather blood free. We may find out later he changed clothes or was cleaned up by the police before putting him in the squad car.

You seem to be implying that Zimmerman was not under Trayvon because of the lack of blood. There was obviously space between them because Zimmerman was able to shoot Martin practically dead center in the chest. The autospy states the path of the round was directly front to back. However, what we don't know is the immediately reaction of both men after Martin was shot. His clothing could have provided a temporary barrier and given Zimmerman enough time to push Martin off him or Martin may have done it himself before any blood got on Zimmerman.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yet it all could have been avoidable if Zimmerman wasn't such a douchebag and decided to pursue Trayvon for no reason whatsoever.

Zimmerman took a life, period. If he gets off I feel that this will only boost his ego and he'll try pursuing "thugs" again.

I don't think you know enough about Zimmerman to make these conclusions. Couldn't you just as easily say that this wouldn't have happened if Martin didn't decide to confront Zimmerman? I could also say that I think Zimmerman let his desire get the best of him. That desire being to help protect his neighborhood and then he turned into a struggle which Zimmerman thought he was going to die.

I don't give a rat's ass about weed being in Trayvon's system. Anyone would defend themselves if confronted by an aggressor. If this was me? If someone kept following me, I'd do my best to lose the pursuer. If I can't shake him and the guy tries to be physical, I damn well try to stop him in any way I can. Knock the guy to the ground, get on top of him and punch, kick, stomp on the guy until I am sure that he will not get back up and then leave. High or not, maybe that was Trayvon's intention too. Trounce Zimmerman until he's unable to continue the pursuit.

It could be. It could also be that Martin decided that he was going to beat the shit out of Zimmerman for following him. Is that not a possibility to you at all? Though I do agree the media reporting the THC content is ridiculous. It is completely irrelevant.

But yeah, they way it is, Zimmerman will walk but he'll be hated for the rest of his life.

LMAO. Let's say Zimmerman was totally in the right and did nothing wrong but still ended up having to defend his life. Do you honestly think he wouldn't still be just as hated?

[Kamakazie Sith]

He may well walk on state murder charges, he might not even be taken to full trial, but he may well not walk on federal civil rights charges, and he's bound to loose the civil suit.

I'm not so sure of that. The evidence shows that Zimmerman was losing a fight and it's Zimmerman's word that he was walking back to his truck when he was assaulted from behind by Trayvon. I'm not sure how you would get guilty out of that. Perhaps they could use the cell phone conversation between Martin's girlfriend and what she heard.

[jcow79]

It could be. It could also be that Martin decided that he was going to beat the shit out of Zimmerman for following him. Is that not a possibility to you at all? Though I do agree the media reporting the THC content is ridiculous. It is completely irrelevant.

Completely irrelevant? Considering that Zimmerman's 911 call indicated he thought the kid was acting odd like he was on drugs or something, this bolsters Zimmerman's claim the he had a legitimate reason for following Martin. It strengthens his defense that this was not racially motivated and more that Martin's action were indeed suspicious.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It could be. It could also be that Martin decided that he was going to beat the shit out of Zimmerman for following him. Is that not a possibility to you at all? Though I do agree the media reporting the THC content is ridiculous. It is completely irrelevant.

Completely irrelevant? Considering that Zimmerman's 911 call indicated he thought the kid was acting odd like he was on drugs or something, this bolsters Zimmerman's claim the he had a legitimate reason for following Martin. It strengthens his defense that this was not racially motivated and more that Martin's action were indeed suspicious.

Good point. I forgot about that part of the 911 call.

[Cosmic Average]

Because Zimmerman was not inspected we can't say one way another if those injuries were self inflicted or inflicted by Trayvon.

There's this photocopy of a picture taken by police at the scene of the shooting.

He was inspected by the police, who gave a police report stating that he was bleeding from the nose and back of the head. He was inspected by the paramedics, who gave this report:

And a paramedic report says Zimmerman had a 1-inch laceration on his head and forehead abrasion.

“Bleeding tenderness to his nose, and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding,” paramedic Michael Brandy wrote about Zimmerman’s injuries in the report.

Link with color photos taken the night of the shooting.

[Gil Hamilton]

Completely irrelevant? Considering that Zimmerman's 911 call indicated he thought the kid was acting odd like he was on drugs or something, this bolsters Zimmerman's claim the he had a legitimate reason for following Martin. It strengthens his defense that this was not racially motivated and more that Martin's action were indeed suspicious.

Good point. I forgot about that part of the 911 call.

According the toxicology report, Martin had 1.5 ng/mL THC and 7.3 ng/mL THC-COOH in his system. Even in strict places, that's below the level of intoxication. A joint will boost your THC concentration to 100 to 200 ng/mL and has a reasonably slow exponential decay, which extends beyond when you are actually intoxicated, up to days. It strikes me as unlikely that Martin was still baked with that little THC in his system. Further, the effects of THC don't tend to make people aggressive, they tend to do the opposite. The drug thing is a red herring. People bring it up, but it has nothing to do with the situation that happened.

But with all this, let me do a slightly modified cross post to something that Cosmic Average posted on another message board, and tell me what you think, Kamikaze Sith.

Let's test that with a hypothetical scenario. I'm from Tucson, Arizona and I can legally own a firearm. In fact, its legal for me to concealed carry and thanks to Arizona's legislature, I don't even need a permit to do so thanks to Jan Brewer signing SB1108.

I can take that concealed carried gun and drive to South Tucson, which has plenty of bad neighborhoods. This is not illegal. I can get out of my car and go up to the biggest, meanest La Raza tattooed covered cholos on the block. I can then talk huge amounts of shit about them, their mothers, and Santa Maria. This is entirely legal for me to do, since I'm not laying a hand on them.

Naturally, South Tucson gang members take some offense to people talking about their sainted mothers and the Virgin Mary and they are now about to kick the ever loving shit out of me, even though what I did was entirely legal. I have a right to be there and insulting someone isn't a crime. It's a rampantly stupid idea, but it is legal. I now am in a situation where there is a very real possibility that they will kill me. They certainly can do it with their bare hands and they are probably armed at least with knives. I'm probably not going to be able to get away from them. My only real recourse at this point is my gun, which is entirely legal for me to possess and carry. Thus, I whip my gun out and open fire in self-defense. They are dead and on the ground. After all, even if I put myself in a violent dangerous situation, I shouldn't just take the beating and let them harm me, right?

As long as I call the cops, cooperate with them, and tell them that the gang members were trying to jump me, going by the logic that has been going around, I've committed no crimes at all. Hell, under Arizona's "Stand Your Ground" Law, if they can't find anything contradicting my story, they can't even arrest me. Besides, it's certainly plausible that some gangbangers in South Tucson would jump a white guy not from around there even without provocation. I'll even make the bet they've got some THC in their system that will turn up in the autopsy, for that matter. Right?

So, as long as the situation I end up in is sufficiently dangerous and where the only reasonable out there is is lethal force, how I got there doesn't matter. Then, what stops me from more or less making a hobby out of hunting people for sport, other than its likely to backfire at some point and get me killed? According to the arguments that have been made and everything you've been saying, KS, there is nothing illegal about it. Unless you can point to where I committed a crime in the process.

[aerius]

I am not a lawyer, but I have read up a lot on self-defence and weapons laws in the past. It's my understanding that if we go by the letter of the law then you can indeed do everything you've just described above and walk away a free man, such is the way of things in redneck states with generous CCW and self-defence laws. If you have a right to be in a certain location and you're confronted with a situation where you need to shoot to kill, then you shoot, call the cops when it's safe, and co-operate.

[Cosmic Average]

But with all this, let me do a slightly modified cross post to something that Cosmic Average posted on another message board, and tell me what you think, Kamikaze Sith.

Well, you could look up the law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)  Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Link

Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. He could not escape. Use of deadly force was justified.

[HMS Conqueror]

Gil Hamilton: What's supposed to be wrong with that example? The fact that someone thinks insulting their mother is grounds to murder you doesn't make it so in law, nor should it. That is a choice no one forced the gang member to make. I don't want to live in a society where it's illegal to protect oneself from deadly violence. I'd point out that provided you had a lawful reason to have the gun on you in the first place, it would work the same way in Britain, and this is a country where an 80 year old shopkeeper was arrested on suspicion of murder for stabbing a customer who happened to be wearing a balaclava and carrying a shotgun.

The difficulty in this case is not that self-defence laws are unjust, but that no one knows if Zimmerman was actually defending himself or whether he started the fight. I would guess he will not be convicted, barring new evidence, because the requirement is only that he show reasonable doubt, not prove conclusively that he is innocent. This ultimately is why the police did not originally charge him, before it became a political issue.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, you could look up the law:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)  Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Link

Zimmerman was on the ground with Trayvon on top of him. He could not escape. Use of deadly force was justified.

I probably can't reasonably escape three gangbangers in South Tucson on foot and they'd certainly give me reason to believe I was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm in my hypothetical too. So you agree that it is legal to go and provoke fights, then use lethal force to resolve them when if-and-when they become violent and dangerous, right? In other words, have a legal loophole to murder someone, because you have the right to defend yourself even if you are the one who is the cause of the violence in the first place.

[Kamakazie Sith]

According the toxicology report, Martin had 1.5 ng/mL THC and 7.3 ng/mL THC-COOH in his system. Even in strict places, that's below the level of intoxication. A joint will boost your THC concentration to 100 to 200 ng/mL and has a reasonably slow exponential decay, which extends beyond when you are actually intoxicated, up to days. It strikes me as unlikely that Martin was still baked with that little THC in his system. Further, the effects of THC don't tend to make people aggressive, they tend to do the opposite. The drug thing is a red herring. People bring it up, but it has nothing to do with the situation that happened.

Nobody said anything about marijuana making someone aggressive. I said the presence of THC is completely irrelevant. However, Jcow79, reminded me that Zimmerman was following Martin because he was acting strange and appeared like he was on drugs. The toxicology report could potentially substantiate Zimmerman's claim and silence those that think Zimmerman was following Martin for no reason or because of his skin color.

Do you know the rate of decay for THC? According to the information I have THC is detectable in the blood stream for only a short time, like a few hours. However, in urine or the body fat cells it is detectable for several weeks. You didn't specify where the sample came from. Some of the articles I've read state that it was detectable in his blood. Others don't specify. Link the toxicology report for us.

So, as long as the situation I end up in is sufficiently dangerous and where the only reasonable out there is is lethal force, how I got there doesn't matter. Then, what stops me from more or less making a hobby out of hunting people for sport, other than its likely to backfire at some point and get me killed? According to the arguments that have been made and everything you've been saying, KS, there is nothing illegal about it. Unless you can point to where I committed a crime in the process.

I'm not aware if there is case law when it comes to your average joe citizen but there is case law that a police officer will be found unjustified in the use of deadly force if it is discovered that the police officer created the situation in which deadly force was needed. IE - Positioning yourself in front of a moving car, jumping into the middle of a large fight without sufficient numbers. However, that does not describe the Trayvon Martin situation. Very few people look at a one on one confrontation and think "this could turn deadly" where as a reasonable person will think "if I step in front of this moving car I could die".

EDIT - I doubt you'd be charged with murder though.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Gil Hamilton: What's supposed to be wrong with that example? The fact that someone thinks insulting their mother is grounds to murder you doesn't make it so in law, nor should it. That is a choice no one forced the gang member to make. I don't want to live in a society where it's illegal to protect oneself from deadly violence. I'd point out that provided you had a lawful reason to have the gun on you in the first place, it would work the same way in Britain, and this is a country where an 80 year old shopkeeper was arrested on suspicion of murder for stabbing a customer who happened to be wearing a balaclava and carrying a shotgun.

The difficulty in this case is not that self-defence laws are unjust, but that no one knows if Zimmerman was actually defending himself or whether he started the fight. I would guess he will not be convicted, barring new evidence, because the requirement is only that he show reasonable doubt, not prove conclusively that he is innocent. This ultimately is why the police did not originally charge him, before it became a political issue.

The police didn't charge him because the local prosecutor told them no. DA > Police

[Gil Hamilton]

Nobody said anything about marijuana making someone aggressive. I said the presence of THC is completely irrelevant. However, Jcow79, reminded me that Zimmerman was following Martin because he was acting strange and appeared like he was on drugs. The toxicology report could potentially substantiate Zimmerman's claim and silence those that think Zimmerman was following Martin for no reason or because of his skin color.

"Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report. There also was a presumed positive test of cannabinoids in Martin's urine, according to the medical examiner's report. It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/f ... ?hpt=ju_c2

That's less than what most places consider "intoxicated". That little amount of THC indicates he probably wasn't high.

Further, what does a person who is someone slightly buzzed on marijuana look like that they are so suspicious? Zimmerman is the neighborhood paranoid who inundated the police department with nearly fifty reports of "suspicious people" in one year, none of which were substantiated. The pissant amount of THC that Martin had in his system is a red herring, which would only work on people who still privately believe that weed causes "reefer madness".

Do you know the rate of decay for THC? According to the information I have THC is detectable in the blood stream for only a short time, like a few hours. However, in urine or the body fat cells it is detectable for several weeks. You didn't specify where the sample came from. Some of the articles I've read state that it was detectable in his blood. Others don't specify. Link the toxicology report for us.

I saw a paper on it, but I don't recall the figure off the top of my head. I can't do literature searches from home unfortunately. However, if the level of THC in his blood was 1.5 ng/mL, then I can't imagine he was still high.

I'm not aware if there is case law when it comes to your average joe citizen but there is case law that a police officer will be found unjustified in the use of deadly force if it is discovered that the police officer created the situation in which deadly force was needed. IE - Positioning yourself in front of a moving car, jumping into the middle of a large fight without sufficient numbers. However, that does not describe the Trayvon Martin situation. Very few people look at a one on one confrontation and think "this could turn deadly" where as a reasonable person will think "if I step in front of this moving car I could die".

EDIT - I doubt you'd be charged with murder though.

We're looking at a case where your average joe citizen used deadly force when he created the situation in which deadly force was needed.

But why don't you think I'd be charged with murder? Do you think when I set out to confront the hypothetical guys and created a situation where lethal force was needed to extract myself in one piece that I didn't commit murder? Do you think that I wasn't responsible for the people killed and my actions were the direct cause?