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 Post subject: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-28 03:46pm
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Yesterday, there was a high school shooting in Chardon, Ohio, about 20 minutes from where I live. One student took out a handgun and started shooting others in the cafeteria as they were having breakfast. One died and a few others got hurt. Today, two succumbed to their injuries bringing the death toll to 3.

Chardon school shooting.

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The toll in the Chardon High School shooting grew today with the death of a third shooting victim.

Russell King and Demetrius Hewlin, students wounded in Monday's shooting, died this morning, officials said today.

"We are very saddened by the loss of our son and others in our Chardon community," Hewlin's family said in a statement. "Demetrius was a happy young man who loved life and his family and friends. We will miss him very much but we are proud that he will be able to help others through organ donation."

They added, "We ask that you respect our privacy during this difficult time."

Earlier today, King, 17, was pronounced brain dead at 12:42 a.m. at Ohio's MetroHealth Medical Center, according to the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office. At 4:49 a.m., police were informed that King had "passed."

Another victim, identified by MetroHealth Hospital as Daniel Parmertor died from the wounds on Monday, hours after being shot.

As the Ohio town coped with the carnage, the focus turned to alleged shooter T.J. Lane who a fellow student and witness identified as the person who shot up his school cafeteria Monday. Two other students remain hospitalized.

Lane, a juvenile, is expected to appear in court this afternoon.

Nate Mueller, a student who was sitting with three friends who were shot, described Lane to ABC News as "a quiet kid. Freshman year he got into a 'goth' phase and didn't talk to that many people anymore. He never egged anybody on. He just went about his business."

Some classmates described Lane as an outcast who'd been bullied. In late December, he posted a poem on his Facebook page that read: "He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet," and ended ominously: "Die, all of you."

But other classmates say Lane had friends and wasn't bullied.

"He had friends. He was quiet," Chardon High School student Tyler Lillash said. "From what I heard he posted some pictures on Twitter of, like, some dude holding guns. But other than that I don't really know. I don't think he was bullied, though."

Lillash was a good friend of Parmertor, one of the teens who died, and said he "started crying uncontrollably" when he heard the news of his friend's death.

Another student, Lexi Joy, passed Lane in the hallway right before the shooting, saying they exchanged a smile and a nod, like usual.

"He didn't seem any different. He seemed just like he'd be on a normal day," Joy said. "He didn't show any expression on his face. He was just TJ."

Lane's family life had been disrupted by divorce and violence, ABC News affiliate WEWS reported. His parents divorced in 2002, and his father later served time in jail on assault and other charges, according to the station.

Attorney Robert N. Farinacci is representing Lane released a statement on behalf of the family Monday night, according to WEWS, calling the incident "something that could never have been predicted."

"The family is devastated by this recent event. They want to express their most heartfelt and sincere condolences to the family of the young man who passed and their continuing prayers are with all those who were injured," Farinacci wrote. "TJ's family has asked for some privacy while they try to understand how such a tragedy could have occurred and while they mourn this terrible loss for their community."

Lane allegedly opened fire with a handgun just before 8 a.m. in the school cafeteria where students were eating breakfast, authorities and witnesses said.

The shooter was chased out of the building by a teacher and was arrested half a mile away near his car.

The suspect is in custody at Geauga County Safety Center.

The attack left "friends laying all over the place" in puddles of blood, Mueller said.

A friend yelled, "Duck" and Mueller told ABC News he turned to see fellow student Lane standing by his table. Mueller said Lane took a second shot and saw a friend get hit.

"He was over the table in a pool of blood," Mueller said, and another pal "was on the floor in a puddle of blood next to him."

A third friend "had not been hit yet as I jumped over him," Mueller said.

Mueller got on the floor and was trying to crawl away when a shot rang out and he felt a bullet graze his ear. He was not badly injured, he said, with just a small red mark left on his ear.

"It was terror. Everything had just gone tunnel vision, like, I need to get out of here," Mueller said. "You see glances of your friends laying all over the place. There's blood, there's people screaming, everybody's just running in different directions and you're just trying to get out. That's all you can do, get out of the school and not look back even though your friends are back there."

Classes were canceled for all schools in the district today.

Chardon is a village in Geauga County, about 35 miles east of Cleveland.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-28 05:17pm
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Remember, blame videogames, not easy access to handguns just like a dumbass on MSNBC did yesterday.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-28 05:48pm
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Hey Flagg, maybe if more kids and teachers had had guns, they could have stopped this. But, all in all another shitty outcome.
You know what my completely unprofessional and untrained opinion is? I blame Hollywood and TV. Hear me out. Every fucking movie or TV show about high school makes it out to be the most important, defining thing that will ever happen to you. Maybe if they were honest and said "High School is shit you put up with for a few years before actually starting your life and developing actual friendships and romances etc" we might see less suicidally inclined teenagers who hate school and class mates and believe that these most important years of theirs have been stolen from them.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-28 06:44pm
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I wonder how many more teenagers must die in school shootings before America realize the importance of stricter gun control. The Americans never seemed to notice how easy it is still for people to put guns in the hands of sentimental unhinged high school students and make it even more easier for criminals to get a source of weapons other than the black market (and more legitimately) with the laws we have right now.

Stricter gun regulation is never about taking away people's right to bear arms - its about making society safer. Its all about saving the lives of those who would had died from an amoral bullet. Some may argue all they want about how if they have looser gun control everyone would get weapons and be able to defend themselves, but even if that happens, the end result would just be the same - dead people, all over the place.

And far more importantly, the Americans need to try and fix the reason why school shootings and gun violence occurs in the first place - that stinking, broken society beneath all that All-American glamor that leads youths into a life of gun-wielding crime at best, or violent psychopathy that leads to school shootings and the Tuscon killings back in 2011 at worst.

If they can't fix it, fix the environment that give rise to this, guns or no guns, more innocent people are just going to die. And that's something that deep down in my heart I just don't want to happen.

But we really can't fix something this big instantly can't we? Its going to be a long drawn out process, if ever. Do we even know all the possible causes for people to snap, pick up guns and shoot innocents? Do we have the resources to mend the cracks that resulted in these gun violence? Could we even challenge the forces of society who would oppose these changes? Is it even possible to change it at all? That it is something that is unchangeable, like human nature?

And that's why I am in for gun control. If there's anything I learn about ethics in the Biomedicine classes of my Biology University Course, if we can never cure the disease, the most humane thing is to at least reduce the suffering. And the way I see it, its all we could do right now.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-28 07:12pm
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At least into 2010 School shootings were actually becoming less common in the US over the past several decades and since the all time peak of reported violent crime in the US around 1990. Someone can research the full 2010 and 2011 numbers if they want.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85 ... otings.jpg

From this
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MGY1Yjc3Mw

Since the US has had hoards and hoards of guns this entire time, and the total civilian held stockpile has steadily risen, trying to blame easy access to guns for a declining rate of violent killings is a rather pointless argument to make. So is blaming anything relatively new like video games, if anything these numbers support the counter opinion that video games provide a way to express anger. Funny what happens when you look up actual facts. Hollywood, well, they aren't helpful but the total number of murders in even the worst years is still pretty damn lot while everyone in the US is heavily exposed to Hollywood and TV influences. With numbers this low, I'd say the causes are highly individualistic, and very very heavily skewed by single persons carrying out mass shootings.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 04:49am
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RIP.

It's a shame this happened. And that the statistics show a rise in this specific sort of event.


I would like to contribute my 2 cents on easy access to guns being a cause of these shootings. In my opinion, the firearms issue has become so hot-button on both sides of the political aisles in this country that any meaningful dialogue has seemingly deadlocked. Some people see it as their inalienable, "god Given right" to own any kind of device up to and including artillery, whereas others think that the 2nd amendment is being misinterpreted, and it seems nobody wants to talk about basic issues like educating about firearms early.

Example: there was were no mandatory: "what to do if you find a gun on the ground" lectures at any age in school in either elementary or high school, (Learned from my parents and the scouts) and the issue wasn't brought up at all in the sex, drugs, etc class in High School.

I feel like firearms have become somewhat fetishized by both extreme ends of the political spectrum in different parts of America, with kids being fascinated by the "forbidden" or "our rights that the government wants to take away" (depending on their parents.)

Of course there is going to be some unhealthy interest in such a potent item/subject in children/adolescents. It's a shame that the people who are in the middle of the issue, like someone who owns a few rifles for target shooting/hunting, and someone else who may not own firearms but is fine with their neighbors having them, can't get together and hash some of these issues out in a public forum without being deemed traitors to their respective ideologies.

It's easier in most parts of the country to get a firearm than a driver's license, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Pragmatically, it seems like requiring trigger locks, educating children about the dangers and realities of firearms, and demystifying guns, as well as additional effort in detetecting potential children with issues could go a long way towards mitigating the issue

Sorry if this is a little TL/DR, I've just been thinking and discussing it a lot, recently.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 05:01am
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It is currently perfectly legal to produce the following object: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11669 at your own home for private use. It is also the only part you can't mail-order. Anybody with access to a reasonably well equipped machine shop can produce that part (and I wouldn't doubt in the next 5 years anybody with access to a 3D printer could do the same).

On the flip side, it is a well known fact that strict gun control laws can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys. And certainly it's not conceivable at all that without access to guns, someone who wants to take out a number of people won't just get a knife and stab people to death, necessitating ever more restrictive laws on buying butter knives.

We've gone over this same exact subject time and again, and the views of hoplophobes and hoplophiles don't change during these shouting matches. So can we skip it this time?



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 05:41am
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So he wasn't bullied, he wasn't abused at home...

He was just batshit crazy?

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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 06:08am
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I'd heard he came from a "violent family" from several news reports.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 09:19am
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Conflicting reports on the bullying front, so that's still up in the air. That'd certainly square with the targeted killing and subsequent surrender.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-02-29 03:25pm
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Well, he's still alive and not injured, so maybe he can give his reasoning on why he did it and hopefully some good can be scrounged from this horrible event so that we can figure out what to do to prevent future school shootings.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-01 07:43pm
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Beowulf wrote:
On the flip side, it is a well known fact that strict gun control laws can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys. And certainly it's not conceivable at all that without access to guns, someone who wants to take out a number of people won't just get a knife and stab people to death, necessitating ever more restrictive laws on buying butter knives.



Yeah, so? Wouldn't people being forced to use knives a step forward? After all, a knife can't compare with a semi-auto.

As for the kid, I'm also really interested in what exactly caused this. He probably just snapped though and because he had access to weapons his personal implosion got projected out unto everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-01 08:02pm
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Scrib wrote:
Beowulf wrote:
On the flip side, it is a well known fact that strict gun control laws can keep guns out of the hands of bad guys. And certainly it's not conceivable at all that without access to guns, someone who wants to take out a number of people won't just get a knife and stab people to death, necessitating ever more restrictive laws on buying butter knives.



Yeah, so? Wouldn't people being forced to use knives a step forward? After all, a knife can't compare with a semi-auto.

As for the kid, I'm also really interested in what exactly caused this. He probably just snapped though and because he had access to weapons his personal implosion got projected out unto everyone else.

Seriously you don't hear too many stories about people a block away getting stabbed by a stray knife.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-01 10:24pm
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Flagg wrote:
Seriously you don't hear too many stories about people a block away getting stabbed by a stray knife.


You don't hear that many stories about people block away getting hit with a semi automatic pistol, either.

Scrib wrote:
Yeah, so? Wouldn't people being forced to use knives a step forward? After all, a knife can't compare with a semi-auto.


As with all things, this depends greatly upon the scenario. Yes, if the gun is already pulled and the person who is shooting it has had experience, then a knife cannot compare to a semi automatic. This advantage pretty much goes away if (1)The gun isn't already in your hands and (2)You don't know what the fuck you are doing.


During force protection training when I was in the navy, it was demonstrated pretty clearly that if someone makes a run at you and you don't already have your gun out, then it's easier and quicker to use a baton. People who aren't familiar with firearms think that someone with a pistol is always going to win against someone with something else...but that's largely because they watch too many movies where the protagonist does a quick-draw McGraw.



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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-01 10:48pm
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Scrib wrote:

Yeah, so? Wouldn't people being forced to use knives a step forward? After all, a knife can't compare with a semi-auto.


They sure can if nobody has a gun to shoot back with or you surprise them at close quarters, and since pretty much all school shootings are by surprise and most involve only one or two victims that kind of does matter. People have gone on killing sprees with knifes and other edged weapons many before, China had a whole rash of them several years ago some of which involved dozens of victims, and Japan actually did go and ban some kinds of knives after someone killed a bunch of people on a bus with one. IIRC Germany had a killing spree a while ago in which the attacker used a homemade flamethrower and replica medieval weapons. Radically fewer guns would help with some of the impulsive killings but it'd do nothing against the crazy folk. However school killings are generally not impulsive, since unless you bring a weapon to school every day or very often you kind of had to premeditate it out of hand.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 12:28am
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Lonestar wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Seriously you don't hear too many stories about people a block away getting stabbed by a stray knife.


You don't hear that many stories about people block away getting hit with a semi automatic pistol, either.


OK, let me put it this way smartass, who has ever been killed by a stray knife from a block away?



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 12:52am
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If the discussion is going to be reduced to selective anecdotes instead of something useful like the fact that suicide by gun is a bigger problem then murder by gun, you know if you compare deaths from car accidents to the number of cars, and the number of deaths from guns to the number of guns, they aren't that radically different in the US. The cars are worse if you take away the firearms suicides from the gun death total. On a world wide basis cars and trucks kill 1.2 million per year while all firearms deaths including war are 250-300,000. Cars and trucks meanwhile only outnumber small arms by about 50%. I thus conclude that firearms are mans only defense against cars.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 01:40am
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Forgive me if I've gotten confused on this, but aren't guns made for the strict purpose of killing things? I may be mistaken, but I don't think that's what cars are used for.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 01:50am
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Losonti Tokash wrote:
Forgive me if I've gotten confused on this, but aren't guns made for the strict purpose of killing things? I may be mistaken, but I don't think that's what cars are used for.

Shush you. You're destroying the penis. I MEAN GUN.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 02:12am
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Losonti Tokash wrote:
Forgive me if I've gotten confused on this, but aren't guns made for the strict purpose of killing things? I may be mistaken, but I don't think that's what cars are used for.


You are mistaken. Lots of guns are made for killing, and lots of guns are made for target shooting as sport and fun. Some are made for destroying material but also kill, like that 90mm anti tank gun that's somehow legal. But if you think use is what counts then the majority of US guns can be declared harmless because they don't ever get used for killing anyway no matter what the design was for, or specifically exist as collectors items. Meanwhile use of cars is destroy the entire planet no matter what the owners intends. That includes the hybrids and electric types which have batteries produced by our good friend strip mining and electricity fueled from coal.



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 02:23am
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Knife banning Japan I must say BTW was hilarious when they hosted the Olympics and insisted first that target shooting out be banned, and then when the Olympic Committee told them that would mean no Olympic Games that they merely required that every single specific cartridge and spent cartridge case be accounted for by the police. Meanwhile it turns out the AK-47 smuggling Yakuaza also runs the nations nuclear power industry..... talk about priorities.



"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 05:54am
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Flagg wrote:

OK, let me put it this way smartass, who has ever been killed by a stray knife from a block away?


Course not.

I have heard of people dicking around with knives and managing to kill someone. Same with dangerous driving killing people.

Fucking around with guns unsafely kills people. So does screwing around with tools and reckless driving.

weemadando wrote:
Shush you. You're destroying the penis. I MEAN GUN.


Oh good, the guy who makes modern warfare table top RPGs is talking about penis compensation.



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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."


Last edited by Lonestar on 2012-03-02 05:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 05:55am
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"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 06:40am
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Lonestar wrote:
Flagg wrote:

OK, let me put it this way smartass, who has ever been killed by a stray knife from a block away?


Course not.

I have heard of people dicking around with knives and managing to kill someone. Same with dangerous driving killing people.

Fucking around with guns unsafely kills people. So does screwing around with tools and reckless driving.



Everything you listed except guns serve a purpose other than killing or target practice (imagining killing).



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 Post subject: Re: 2 more students die from Monday's school shooting. PostPosted: 2012-03-02 09:58am
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While cars vs guns argument never fails to amuse me, I would again point out that the entire reason firearms exist is as a weapon. They are made to kill things. Paper, animals, people. Cars are just made to move you around. Yet we control who can and cannot drive a car. I had to take a hunter safety course as a prereq for a marksmanship class at my high school. Is a similar concept so outrageous?



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