Panorama: Poor America

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Darth Wong
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Re: Panorama: Poor America

Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:Bottom line - there are ways to get a hernia surgery paid for in the US even if you're not insured. People who think they are entitled to seek medical care do attempt to find a way to pay for it. This gentleman apparently has not. Therefore, I suspect part of the problem here is that he feels that if he can't pay for it he doesn't deserve to have it.
Hernia surgeries are a funny thing though ... a hernia can be considered life-threatening depending on its severity, but it's also something you can live with for years with little consequence, and millions do precisely that.

Of course, that in no way mitigates the absurdity of people in the "greatest country in the world" being forced to pay $20,000 for a surgery that I had in 2004 for free, despite not having any employer health benefits at the time (employer health benefits aren't as critical here as they are in the US; up here they just pay for extras, like free eyeglasses and cosmetic dental work, or private rooms in hospitals instead of semi-private).
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Broomstick
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Re: Panorama: Poor America

Post by Broomstick »

Chirios wrote:
Broomstick wrote: Let's also put that $20k into perspective. That's less than what many people will spend on a new car or truck. Hospitals will let you make payment arrangements. It's certainly possible to get financing for medical procedures. You don't have to pay the bill in one lump sum. $20,000 over 5 years works out to about $334 a month, and if you can negotiate that amount with the hospital rather than borrowing you won't even have to pay interest. If you can get them to stretch over 10 years (possible - my spouse did that to pay off surgery that saved his right leg from amputation) that's $167 a month. What his wife said about "they can't take our house away because of an unpaid medical bill" is true - they can't. Assuming such surgery goes well (and odds are it would) he would be able to go back to work and continue to earn money. Failure to pay the medical bill might leave their credit completely trashed but it won't take away the house or the food on the table (being completely unable to work might, though, but that's a risk he faces now if some complication to his hernia occurs).
Would the 200 bucks a month be considered a lot of money to someone working his job?
It depends.

They say he was in construction, which has been hard hit of late, but if he's had the hernia 10 years he also had it during the Great Boom that proceeded the Great Recession. During the early 00's even low-level construction workers could earn $30k-50k a year (depending on location and how motivated they were). At 30k a year it might have been a bit of a pinch but it should have been affordable. It depends on how much he's paying for housing and other costs as well.

As a comparison, the first couple years of the Great Recession I was paying off a small loan (arising from family medical issues, surprise surprise) to the tune of $180 a month while earning about $12k a year AND supporting two people besides. It is possible. However, I also made full use of all government benefits I qualified for, had a garden large enough to make a significant impact on the food bill (including a hydroponic indoor food factory part of that time during the winter), no debt on my vehicles, a rental rate about half what is normal for this area for the space we have, and my dad helped us out during the really thin months.

Who knows what resources that couple has? A garden? Do they hunt? Do they have family that help or hurt them financially? Kids? Ailing parents? What debt do they have? What are their mortgage/rent and utility costs?

Are they able to argue that 20k cost down to 12k or so? Do the local hospitals have access to charitable funds?

But, really - why the fuck does America insist on making medical access so goddamned complicated?
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If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Darth Wong
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Re: Panorama: Poor America

Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:Who knows what resources that couple has? A garden? Do they hunt? Do they have family that help or hurt them financially? Kids? Ailing parents? What debt do they have? What are their mortgage/rent and utility costs?

Are they able to argue that 20k cost down to 12k or so? Do the local hospitals have access to charitable funds?

But, really - why the fuck does America insist on making medical access so goddamned complicated?
They make it complicated because at each step, someone profits. It's always about the profit.

When governments give you less than you pay for, they call it "waste". When corporations give you less than you pay for, they call it "profit", and boast that it creates jobs (and that it shouldn't be taxed).
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Darth Wong
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Re: Panorama: Poor America

Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:This "charity, not government programs" idea is a staple of American conservative politics, and Christian politics in particular. They appear to be keenly aware that government social programs function as competitors to the role that organized religion has traditionally played in western society, and this is a turf war.
Damn, Mike, you really know your southern neighbors!
You know what it is? We're like people who live in a cheap townhouse with really thin walls. We can hear the neighbours fighting and arguing every night ;)
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Aaron MkII
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Re: Panorama: Poor America

Post by Aaron MkII »

madd0ct0r wrote:Which is still fucking stupid, because exactly the same christian rationality and charity led to the development of things like the NHS in the UK.

meh, I'm preaching to the choir here, I just really, really don't understand what's going on in Joe Q's mind.
Keep in mind that the US was settled originally by the times equivilant of fundies, whose attitudes still influence things today, sex for example.

Canada had a combination of milder Catholics and Protestants, and both here and the UK religion seems to be more a private thing.
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