Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by ChaserGrey »

Simon_Jester wrote:You have an interesting point. If the railway can handle enough freight fast enough, it will certainly have that effect- though the time consumed in loading and offloading ships at the ports might cancel out the time consumed waiting in line to go through the canal.
You'd have to have top-of-the-line cargo handling to hope to compete, methinks. No breaking bulk allowed- you'd need high-cap cranes to pull the cargo containers at one end, put them straight onto rolling stock (no traditional boxcars allowed, the modified flatbeds that hold a container), and more high-cap cranes to load them at the other end. The rail line would have to go over the Negev Desert, which is not a fun environment You're talking hundreds of millions of dollars at the least in infrastructure costs, in one of the most politically volatile places on the planet and one of the physically narrowest parts of Israel.

I'm not holding my breath. If someone actually manages to line up investment for the project, I'll start to get excited- and ando is right that this would be very, very exciting if it happened. I just don't see it happening in the forseeable future.

(And for the paranoid, a high-cap rail line from the Elat region up to the Med would be easy for a hypothetical Egyptian, Jordanian, or Saudi invader to seize, and would give them a fast link almost to Tel Aviv. None of these countries are currently aggressive towards Israel at the moment, but governments can change- I'm sure I don't need to cite examples.)
I don't know. The extraction industry is all at sea, so having a navy means you can deter people from harassing it. It also helps you assert power over the waters around your country (an Israeli airbase in Cyprus would do the same thing for them), and in general means that you have more strength which can be made to be felt at greater distances from your country. So this can all be tied into "Israel is trying to strengthen its strategic position, with more control over broader reaches of the sea, and with its own economic route (that railway) that lets it present an alternative to the Suez Canal now that Egypt has become a possibly unstable and dangerous country."
The subs are Israel trying to overhaul their navy to protect offshore industries, which isn't something they've done historically- up until now their navy has mostly been oriented towards coast-defense, with lots of small, cheap missile boats and a few SSKs. Adding more submarines lets them project force into places like those gas fields without the problems associated with building larger ships like destroyers, which are manifold from Israel's point of view:
  • They're expensive to build and operate.
  • They also consume a lot of manpower, which Israel has always been short on.
  • They'd have to get someone to build the ships for them, which could be tough politically.
  • They'd take time to come on line- figure a few years for construction, more to get the crews up to an acceptable level of readiness. The Israelis already know how to operate submarines, now.
I also wonder if the extra subs are related to deterrence. Six boats is enough to have two or so at sea continuously if you want, which means the force could do deterrent patrols and some other missions as well. With the new generation of Iranian missiles coming, the Israelis may not feel confident in their Jericho IRBM force anymore.

Edit: Hit "submit" too soon, lost second half of post. Grrr...
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Sidewinder »

Thanas wrote:Yeah, but Israel really pissed away that relationship for no good reason when they bullied the Israeli ambassador on national TV. Really, doing childish stuff like making him sit lower than the Israeli guy and insulting the Turkish flag? From an official to boot.
I think you meant "bullied the Turkish ambassador." Anyways, do you have links to news articles describing the incident in question? When did it occur, before or after the violence with the freighter to Gaza?
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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The Israelis might want six subs so they can keep one in the Med and one in the Arabian Sea- so that they have something that can definitely nuke Iran.
weemadando wrote:The Suez is one of the most generous in terms of "Suezmax" capacity for vessels too. It'd have to be a really efficient fast transfer process - unless Israel got into business as the new distribution hub for the Med - they receive goods from Asia and then rather than acting as a straight transfer point, they actually break down the loads for end destination there.
True.

The other way it would become useful is if something happens regarding the Canal- if Egypt collapses into some kind of weird instability that threatens passage somehow. Though that wouldn't be easy, since any Egyptian government knows what the canal's worth, and it's a big sea level ditch that can't be attacked effectively except by sinking ships in the channel.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Sarevok »

Does not Israel have Jericho IRBMs with range sufficient to reach Iran and even Pakistan ? Do they need sub launched cruise missiles or this is just to ensure extra overkill ?
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Pelranius »

Sarevok wrote:Does not Israel have Jericho IRBMs with range sufficient to reach Iran and even Pakistan ? Do they need sub launched cruise missiles or this is just to ensure extra overkill ?
Well, the Iranians or someone else could land a lucky strike by fighter or ballistic missile onto a Jericho silo. But good luck in finding a Dolphin SSK.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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Sarevok wrote:Does not Israel have Jericho IRBMs with range sufficient to reach Iran and even Pakistan ? Do they need sub launched cruise missiles or this is just to ensure extra overkill ?
That is the question. The Israelis have depended on Jericho for a while, but if the Iranians can put a nuclear warhead on the Shahab-3 (and we know from the IAEA that they were looking at it pretty seriously, at the least) it's accurate enough to take out Israel's Jericho force, and the distances are short enough that launch on warning isn't something you can count on. Flight time for a Shahab-3 from Israel to Iran is a little over 10 minutes, and the Israelis don't have a dense enough satellite network to be sure of catching a launch right away.

Under those circumstances, I think what we're seeing is a decision by Israel to develop an alternate deterrent, because they're afraid that if they continue to depend on Jericho a nuclear-armed Iranian government might see a nuclear exchange with Israel as winnable.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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Yeah. That's a huge weakness of any land-based missile system: vulnerability to being blown up on the ground.

The US gets around it with an immense early-warning network, and even then could face a "use it or lose it" decision time for our land-based ICBMs of about fifteen or twenty minutes- you have that much time to decide to launch your nukes and murder a big chunk of the world, or your deterrent gets vaporized on the ground when the enemy missiles land. The Russians have the same problem.

The UK and France had the same problem Israel does too- they developed land-based missiles, but both countries are just so close to Russian missile sites that in the event of a serious nuclear surprise attack, they'd never get a chance to launch the things. So their nuclear deterrent goes on the missile submarines.

Since Israel has a mix of enemies, some who might have nuclear missiles and some that don't, it makes more sense for them to keep both kinds of weapon at once.

Israel is trying to set up a sub-based deterrent that's more secure and resistant to attack.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by eyl »

Sidewinder wrote:
Thanas wrote:Yeah, but Israel really pissed away that relationship for no good reason when they bullied the Israeli ambassador on national TV. Really, doing childish stuff like making him sit lower than the Israeli guy and insulting the Turkish flag? From an official to boot.
I think you meant "bullied the Turkish ambassador." Anyways, do you have links to news articles describing the incident in question? When did it occur, before or after the violence with the freighter to Gaza?
It happened in January 2010, well before the flotilla incident. However, that was a (severely ham-handed/incompetent) response to a series of Turkey-initiated diplomatic clashes which began in January 2009.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by LaCroix »

Simon_Jester wrote:You have an interesting point. If the railway can handle enough freight fast enough, it will certainly have that effect- though the time consumed in loading and offloading ships at the ports might cancel out the time consumed waiting in line to go through the canal.
Average time to pass the channel (including all waiting times) 11-16 hours.
Fully unload, and then load a medium sized container ship (~4000 20ft Containers) takes about 10-12 hours total.
Let's assume the extra distance to get from the Suez entrance to Israel is roughly equals twice the distance saved from not going into the Gulf of Suez, but Aquaba instead. (I only measured by thumb). So the ship takes about 2 hours extra - 12-14 hours average time for the train solution.

So they'd have to move these containers to the other side (about 210km as the Swallow flies, if they use the optimal locations for Ports available in Israel) in less than 2 hours to come out at least equal to the worst case scenario. And you need at least 2000 double stack cars to transport these. The whole system would be more of a conveyor belt than a rail road, on multiple rail routes simultaneously, with always half of them being in replacement from the wear.

It would be more efficient if they dug a second channel (Doubling as a defensive moat against Egypt :lol: )
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Irbis »

ChaserGrey wrote:(And for the paranoid, a high-cap rail line from the Elat region up to the Med would be easy for a hypothetical Egyptian, Jordanian, or Saudi invader to seize, and would give them a fast link almost to Tel Aviv. None of these countries are currently aggressive towards Israel at the moment, but governments can change- I'm sure I don't need to cite examples.)
Said invader would need to somehow:

A) Produce naval assets rivalling these used in D-Day if Saud are to be invader;
B) Reconcile civilian government and military in Egypt, kind of hard with both hating each other's guts, if Egypt would be one;
C) Reverse Jordan's foreign policy by 1080 (seriously, it would need to take that hard turn) degrees while making their ruler highly suicidal, in case of Jordan;

If invader would have been a coalition of the above, the invader would both need to deal with above issues + with keeping secrecy from Mossad/CIA, which would be completely impossible given number of people involved.

In short, man capable of doing that would need to be Talleyrand and Rommel rolled into one, at which point he would give up and have found himself less troubling piece of Earth to conquer.
Simon_Jester wrote:Since Israel has a mix of enemies, some who might have nuclear missiles
Like who? :shock:

Pakistan? It's closest potentially dangerous nuclear state, but even then it really doesn't compute.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by ChaserGrey »

Irbis wrote: If invader would have been a coalition of the above, the invader would both need to deal with above issues + with keeping secrecy from Mossad/CIA, which would be completely impossible given number of people involved.
I did specify "for the paranoid". I think there are more reasonable objections to the plan.
Simon_Jester wrote:Since Israel has a mix of enemies, some who might have nuclear missiles
Like who? :shock:

Pakistan? It's closest potentially dangerous nuclear state, but even then it really doesn't compute.
The biggest worry these days is Iran. According to the IAEA report released in November, they were (and may still be, that's unclear) working on figuring out how to fit a physics package into a Shahab-3 missile, which has a long enough range to reach Israel. The Shahab-3 isn't a great missile, but since Israel's Jericho force isn't really hardened it's good enough to be a credible threat to the Jericho sites if armed with a nuclear warhead, and for reasons discussed upthread the Israelis may not be able to do launch on warning the way the US and USSR could during the Cold War.

The Dolphins have fairly long-ranged missiles, and absent a massive naval buildup Iran is unlikely to be able to find them.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by weemadando »

LaCroix wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:You have an interesting point. If the railway can handle enough freight fast enough, it will certainly have that effect- though the time consumed in loading and offloading ships at the ports might cancel out the time consumed waiting in line to go through the canal.
Average time to pass the channel (including all waiting times) 11-16 hours.
Fully unload, and then load a medium sized container ship (~4000 20ft Containers) takes about 10-12 hours total.
Let's assume the extra distance to get from the Suez entrance to Israel is roughly equals twice the distance saved from not going into the Gulf of Suez, but Aquaba instead. (I only measured by thumb). So the ship takes about 2 hours extra - 12-14 hours average time for the train solution.

So they'd have to move these containers to the other side (about 210km as the Swallow flies, if they use the optimal locations for Ports available in Israel) in less than 2 hours to come out at least equal to the worst case scenario. And you need at least 2000 double stack cars to transport these. The whole system would be more of a conveyor belt than a rail road, on multiple rail routes simultaneously, with always half of them being in replacement from the wear.

It would be more efficient if they dug a second channel (Doubling as a defensive moat against Egypt :lol: )
I think the argument that would be made about the rail link option is twofold.

1) Sea traffic from Asia is only likely to increase as more and more manufacturing occurs there, which will no doubt increase wait times at Suez.

2) Anticipating Egyptian instability which could lead to closures of the canal.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Irbis »

ChaserGrey wrote:The biggest worry these days is Iran. According to the IAEA report released in November, they were (and may still be, that's unclear) working on figuring out how to fit a physics package into a Shahab-3 missile, which has a long enough range to reach Israel. The Shahab-3 isn't a great missile, but since Israel's Jericho force isn't really hardened it's good enough to be a credible threat to the Jericho sites if armed with a nuclear warhead, and for reasons discussed upthread the Israelis may not be able to do launch on warning the way the US and USSR could during the Cold War.
Pardon Moi, but finding any nuclear devices in Iran (much less ones being good for a missile) today would be only possibly for a graduate of G. W. Bush's School of Finding WMDs in Middle East, sorry.
weemadando wrote:1) Sea traffic from Asia is only likely to increase as more and more manufacturing occurs there, which will no doubt increase wait times at Suez.
Eh, as of now, I'd bet on massive decrease. With China, India, USA and Australia pumping more and more Co2 to atmosphere routes around Russia and Canada are looking more and more viable, being a few thou km shorter and coincidentally skipping the problem of pirates on both edges of Indian Ocean.

Heck, I hear both passages are on the edge of viability today, with shipping steadily increasing, though mostly as an experiment so far.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Irbis wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Since Israel has a mix of enemies, some who might have nuclear missiles
Like who? :shock:

Pakistan? It's closest potentially dangerous nuclear state, but even then it really doesn't compute.
I'm sorry, there was an unspoken "one day" in there. Iran might one day have nuclear missiles, seeing as how they have missiles and are working on the nuclear to put in them. Once Iran has them, other Middle Eastern countries will try to have them too, and some may succeed. On the other hand, countries like Syria and Jordan almost certainly don't stand a chance of ever getting a nuclear arsenal because they are small and poor.

So Israel wants a nuclear deterrent for two things. One, so it can threaten to launch nuclear weapons if a genocidal invading army overruns the country by conventional means. Two, so it can threaten to use nuclear strikes to devastate any country that launches a nuclear attack on Israel.

It can get number one with land-based missile silos, but it can't get number two. With submarines it can get both- but it helps if they can keep a missile sub in the Mediterranean and in the Arabian Sea at the same time.

Does anyone know what kind of naval facilities the Israelis have around Eilat? Can they handle submarines there? Could they build facilities to do so?
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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The Israelis deployed a sub to Eliat for exercises in '09 but said at the time they didn't plan to base subs there. They haven't done another deployment there, to my knowledge, presumably to keep Egypt or Jordan from getting nervous. Probably wouldn't take much work to set up a squadron there if they wanted to, though- everything but the boats can be transported within Israel from the main base at Haifa, and the boats have enough range to go around Africa if the Suez Canal is either unavailable or judged to be indiscreet.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by LaCroix »

weemadando wrote: I think the argument that would be made about the rail link option is twofold.

1) Sea traffic from Asia is only likely to increase as more and more manufacturing occurs there, which will no doubt increase wait times at Suez.

2) Anticipating Egyptian instability which could lead to closures of the canal.
You need 2000 cars per ship to transfer the containers. This fictional train would be 40 km long! Let's say 40 trains in each direction, 80 trains total to swap cargo between ships, and each train must be loaded/unloaded in less than 4 minutes to keep the line rolling. But 10-12 hours per ship means that under perfect circumstances, a harbour needs twice the that time to do it. Which means that you need two trains in each direction to make that work, which in turn means you need 4 tracks to make it work (8 minute intervals between trains) .

And that means that you only work on swapping two ship for the whole time. Let's say you have ten swaps (20 ships) - 40 trains moving in and out of each harbour, with a total of 800 trains on 20 tracks!

Best of all - that only means you can swap the freight of ten ships per 16 hours, 30 ships per day!

You'd need twice the ressouces to match the current capacity of 50 ships per day of the Suez -
40 tracks (And with that number of heavy, fast trains on each track, you can be happy if they last a year.),
1600 trains moving at any time (plus spare trains, supplies, service ),
and a small nation of peons.
TWO harbours capable of handling 20 ships at the same time, each, and stretched out far enough to let the hundreds of trains weave between each other?

Oh, and the Suez fee is an average of 150000 US$ per ship. Try matching it.

Honestly, for the cost involved, it probably would be cheaper to build a second channel from scratch, especially long-term.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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:shock: With numbers like that, I'm beginning to wonder how anyone ever manages to offload a container ship at all...
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by MKSheppard »

weemadando wrote:Everyone's talking about dick enhancements.

A fucking Suez Canal alternative. That's the big news here.
Well, you also forgot the 1.2 to 1.3 tcf of natural gas found about 120~ km off Haifa; which is about halfway between Israel and Cyprus...

Plus the talk of an undersea electric line connecting Israel with Cyprus' electric grid, and thence onwards to connect with the greater European Grid.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Irbis »

MKSheppard wrote:Plus the talk of an undersea electric line connecting Israel with Cyprus' electric grid, and thence onwards to connect with the greater European Grid.
Is that even feasible? Cyprus-European mainland line is about as long as Cyprus-Libya would be, and even with "shortcut" through Crete it looks longer than Sardinia-Spain distance...
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

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Simon_Jester wrote::shock: With numbers like that, I'm beginning to wonder how anyone ever manages to offload a container ship at all...
So do dock workers. Every damn day.

The usual thing that works for harbours is that they just unload the stuff to a big holding area, and it gets loaded to trains/trucks at different speeds. Harbours have huge storage areas for that reason. So the containers are leaving the harbour over many days, on different routes, and disperse across the land, while other containers are delivered from somewhere in advance, accumulating at the holding area for when the ship arrives.

Outer Rotterdam container port section You can see the huge area of buffer storage. These lines are stacked as high as the containers on deck of the ship, so four lines are roughly one ship's worth of cargo. So the storage capacity is about 4x as much as actual ship capacity in harbour at any time.
As you can see here, this system only works because there are substantial down-times between the arrival of ships. The cranes only move an average of 600 containers per day, which means that they do statistically work on one ship every three days, giving the other crews time to clear the cargo away while the next ship is mooring at a different harbour lot.

Rotterdam also manages because a lot of this is transported by ships. (The small container vessels, that go onto the Rhine.)

So, apart from needing basically half of Rotterdam Container Harbour at each endpoint, the main problems do arise if you want to get the stuff down and across that fictional Israeli rail-road, and then onto the other ship, while that other ship's cargo is moved to the first ship at the same time. Since there is no down-time in this process, and every ship is bound to dock for the whole process, you need to do this work non-stop, with no storage time in between. The rail-road capacity needed to manage this is mind-boggling, bordering on absolute insanity.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well. It's mind-boggling if you're seriously trying to replace the Suez Canal with a rail link of equal throughput. If all you want is the ability to move a few shiploads of cargo a day, possibly siphoning a little extra revenue from the Canal, or giving you a strong position if the Canal is put out of action... that might be achievable.
Irbis wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Plus the talk of an undersea electric line connecting Israel with Cyprus' electric grid, and thence onwards to connect with the greater European Grid.
Is that even feasible? Cyprus-European mainland line is about as long as Cyprus-Libya would be, and even with "shortcut" through Crete it looks longer than Sardinia-Spain distance...
Cyprus to Israel, longer than Cyprus to Libya? I think you need to re-check your geography. Cyprus is this island. I doubt the distance is much over 250-300 km, eyeballing the map.

I've heard talk of creating huge solar power grids in the Sahara to power Europe, and I can only assume someone planned out the electric cable (even batshit crazy megaprojects like Atlantropa have been planned, this is relatively unambitious). I don't know of it having been done before, but that doesn't mean it's physically impossible any more than the Burj Khalifa is.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by LaCroix »

Simon_Jester wrote:Well. It's mind-boggling if you're seriously trying to replace the Suez Canal with a rail link of equal throughput. If all you want is the ability to move a few shiploads of cargo a day, possibly siphoning a little extra revenue from the Canal, or giving you a strong position if the Canal is put out of action... that might be achievable.
Railroad construction cost scroll down to find the 1995 cost.

Given the labour cost discrepancy, cost should be equal to the 1995 example (you need high quality rails for that), so you can put it to a quarter million per mile a single round track would be ~280 miles including the stuff needed for the stations - 70 million $
To be able to service one or two ships per port, you'd need 5 or 6 lines.~400 million total
(We're talking about just putting their cargo to the other side in a week - significantly slower than Suez, with one or two tracks as spare for accidents or repairs. The cargo would be stacked at the other harbour, and the next ship coming in would be loaded with it.)

Trains - 1 to 3 million US$ for modern diesel-electric, let's go with an average of 2, and put the numbers at a reasonable 100 (a third of what you'd need for real-time transport I postulated above) 200 million
A couple thousand of cars for the train - no idea, but easily the same as the trains.

Harbour construction? Latest Project I found for the equivalent of a small harbour -> 100 million per piece, you need 2.

So we have the trains and rails, two small harbours, and we are already closing in to the billion initial cost. Not too bad, eh? Should be manageable, too. Let's ignore the other needed infrastructure, and assume it will be financed by entrepreneurs that create towns and businesses near the harbours.

BUT...
No one will use it if it is more expensive than the canal (as it is much slower and complicated, as you must plan for two vessels being in time) - so you must make things work with 150000 fee per ship. It can service about 5-6 ships per week without container stack overflow. That makes a million $ per week, 4 million per month.

Let's even be generous and say it can handle 4 times as much - 24 ships, and miraculously manages to handle the cargo transport even though in each harbour, each pier is only empty for like 20 hours a week ( = permanently moored) -> 16 million per month. (In fact, it would lead to the desert and whole Israel rapidly filling with overdue containers... :lol: )

Minimum wage in Israel 4,300 NIS -> 1162.16 $ a month

That means you could only pay wages for 15000 labourers. That probably would cover train operations (100 trains in non stop motion, plus service and repair is still huge for a 200 km distance covered), and maybe even one harbour's needs. But I doubt it would cover all the need for a 24 hour full-speed operation.

That was assuming that all trains and machinery runs on sand, water and air, and all spare parts are for free. And we never even thought about interest for the initial cost, or the investment itself.

I seriously doubt you can even cover cost.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by LaCroix »

Just for relations: Rotterdam port fees (look for the examples at page 25) Harbours usually charge ~50000$ for just unloading an average container ship.
So with two harbours working, you'd need to handle the transport (39000 tons in the case of this example) for 50000$ to stay efficient - 1.28$ per ton for 200km transport.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by Simon_Jester »

It's not going to be competitive with Suez unless canal fees start to inflate or the canal is closed by events- that much, I believed all along.

The Israelis might at least want to set up a single double-track railway from Eilat to the Med, not as an alternative to Suez but just for the sake of having some infrastructure in place- but you can stop trying to rererereconvince me that a rail link won't outcompete the canal. If it could, they'd probably have built a railroad instead of the canal in the first place, back in the 1860s when the only way to excavate that damn canal was by fellahin and blackpowder.
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Re: Fourth Dolphin for Israel with Germanoid Money?

Post by LaCroix »

Simon_Jester wrote:It's not going to be competitive with Suez unless canal fees start to inflate or the canal is closed by events- that much, I believed all along.

The Israelis might at least want to set up a single double-track railway from Eilat to the Med, not as an alternative to Suez but just for the sake of having some infrastructure in place- but you can stop trying to rererereconvince me that a rail link won't outcompete the canal. If it could, they'd probably have built a railroad instead of the canal in the first place, back in the 1860s when the only way to excavate that damn canal was by fellahin and blackpowder.
If they want to put billions into the sand, so to speak, they might do it. It might serve as a public transport from Eilat to Gaza Strip (Knowing Israel, it will probably end in Kerem Shalom, just out of spite), but it won't make that much revenue. It will be a money grave until things do go south in Suez. (Or not go south, anymore...) The logical problem is that "things" must stay that way for a long time to give Israel the time to build the rest of this fictional project.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
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