Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizenship

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Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizenship

Post by ray245 » 2012-01-18 02:43am

The father of a Hong Kong-born teen is seeking a judicial review after the boy's bid to renounce his Singapore citizenship was turned down.

The 16-year-old - a Singapore citizen since 1996 - has been told to complete his national service and then apply again to renounce his citizenship within a year of his 21st birthday. All citizens are required to undergo national service on reaching 18, unless they are granted a deferral.

This now appears to have emerged as a test case on whether a minor who is a citizen by registration has the right to renounce his nationality.

At issue is whether the Singapore Constitution was correctly interpreted when the boy's bid to renounce his citizenship was turned down, according to court papers filed by his father, Mr Cheung Sin Wai.

The case is expected to focus on Articles 124(1) and 124(2) of the Constitution, which relate to citizenship, for clarification by the courts.

Mr Cheung initially named the commissioner of the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority (ICA) and the commander of the Central Manpower Base, which manages national service enlistment, as the defendants. But this was later changed, and the Attorney-General is now the sole defendant.

A pre-trial conference was held in the High Court on Tuesday.

Mr Cheung and his wife, who have three children, became Singapore citizens in 1995. His son was registered as a citizen a year later, but in September 2010, he left for Hong Kong with a year-long exit permit.

Three months later, he notified the ICA that he was renouncing his Singapore citizenship, and returned his passport and identity card. But he was informed that this would not be possible until he completed his national service.

In August the same year, he applied for Chinese citizenship but was told approval was subject to renouncing his Singapore citizenship.

That same month, he received a passport issued by Britain, enabling him to exercise the rights of a citizen of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

In October last year, he made a fresh attempt to renounce his Singapore citizenship, and when this failed, his father filed his suit for a judicial review.

In court papers filed, Mr Cheung claims the proper interpretation of the relevant provisions of the Singapore Constitution allows his son to renounce his citizenship.

His lawyer Lee Chin Seon is expected to explain his client's position when the case goes to trial.

Mr Cheung is seeking a court declaration that his son is not liable for national service.

He claims the requirement to do national service does not apply to a citizen by registration, and especially in the case of a minor.

Mr Cheung, 56, argues that until his son reaches 21, he will not have all the rights and privileges of citizenship, and therefore cannot be held liable as a full citizen till then.

His two older children are Singapore citizens and the family lives here.

K.C. VIJAYAN
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNew ... 56985.html

What do you think about the idea of not being allowed to renounce citizenship until the citizen finish serving his national service?
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by madd0ct0r » 2012-01-18 02:46am

given the guy is a minor it seems legit.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by S.L.Acker » 2012-01-18 02:51am

He's actively trying to get away from the nation and live elsewhere, I wouldn't care if he was a draft dodger as long as he doesn't want to come back later. He obviously doesn't want to be a part Singapore so let him go. One person not serving isn't going to ruin anything.

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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by DudeGuyMan » 2012-01-18 03:03am

If they're willing to renounce their citizenship to get away, then you really don't want them.

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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Duckie » 2012-01-18 03:30am

I'd rather not have a military staffed full of guys who dislike my country for shanghaiing them into the military when they just wanted to leave and renounce their citizenship. Better three guys who care than 10 who are just there, or worse, actively resent it. This is a pretty good reason why conscript armies are a bad idea honestly.

(by this logic, mind, you could point out the absurd extrapolation that you'd want to restrict political office to immigrants only, but that seems surprisingly sensible to me anyhow: after all, who better to steer the ship of state than the guys who liked the rhetoric or the direction and chose to work their way aboard, compared to freeloaders who ended up there by accident of birth and inertia. :) )

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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Simon_Jester » 2012-01-18 03:45am

Most of the arguments for conscript armies have to do with the desire to have a uniformly trained military- it's accepted that 10% or so of the recruits will be crappy, in exchange for knowing that everyone in the country (or at least everyone eligible) can be called up and turned back into a killing machine on relatively short notice in an emergency.

This actually worked rather well for a lot of 20th century nations.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by mr friendly guy » 2012-01-18 04:50am

Small countries like Singapore and Israel arguably require conscription to make up the numbers for their armies.

That being said, I gave up my Singapore citizenship since a) I have been living in Australia since 4 years old and b) I don't want to do National Service. Not just that, but since I live in Australia for so long it seemed pointless to serve in the military of another country. What are they going to do? Waste money training me only to recall me from Australia when they need a killing machine? :D

As for this kid, how much of the Singapore education system did he benefit from? Someone who moved a long time ago and hence arguably has not benefited from Singapore society should not have to "pay back society as it were". This kid seems to have been a citizen since age 11, so his formatative years would have been under a Singapore school.

He should have just gotten a deferal then give up his citizenship when he is no longer a minor. Problem solved.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by DoomSquid » 2012-01-18 05:41pm

I think it depends on just how much contact he has with Singapore, really. If he's never left Hong Kong in his life, and his Singaporean citizenship is just words on a piece of paper, rather than something he's either taken advantage of or has an emotional attachment to, then I'd say let him go. At that point, it's basically dragooning a foreigner into your army. It's not like he's likely to go and fight for you in the event of a war anyway, so what's the point? Given the family apparently lives in Singapore, though, I rather suspect that he has enjoyed the advantages of growing up in Singapore.

I actually went to school with a bloke who had dual Norwegian/British citizenship, but had never left Britain in his entire life. He didn't speak a word of Norwegian but he was still faced with doing national service for Norway. Fortunately, he managed to get it deferred.

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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by jessicacml33 » 2012-01-19 01:11pm

so renouncing citizenship basically means he/she no longer wants to be a part of the country and is willing to give up their rights/ welfare assuming he's not planning to go back for education or work. whats the point of keeping someone who doesnt want to be there, against his will, just so he can serve the military for 2 years THEN renounce citizenship? um i dont really get the 'minor' thing but i guess it has something to do with registration yeah.

lol ok to be honest. there are no wars whatsoever in sgp, why bother with ns? the only country that might have conflict with singaporea is malaysia. comparing the two countries' area/size, power/ population etc, i guess a bomb is enough to blow sgp up into pieces.. how is NS going to help the country in terms of development, economic, education, environmental, military??, society..? um imposing strict rules and putting pressure on people, doesnt it sound more like a communist country?

in conclusion, for whatever reason it might be, renouncing citizenship should be allowed. just let the boy go. simple as that.
Last edited by SCRawl on 2012-01-19 02:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: (Mostly) duplicate post deleted -- SCRawl

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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Lusankya » 2012-01-20 12:49am

The timing comes across as rather dodgy to me. What kind of family sends their 16 year old son off not only to live in another country, but to get a completely different citizenship from the rest of them? Especially if the older two children are girls, and thus exempt from National Service, it seems to me that the most obvious explanation for such behaviour would be specifically to ensure that the son is not required to perform national service. Regardless of whether or not he'd be a good soldier, it's in the state's best interests to ensure that he does perform his national service, because otherwise the precedent just opens the door for other citizens who are merely ambivalent about national service to try to ditch their citizenship in a similar way, just for the convenience factor.

Of course, since he already has the British-issued passport, he's actually quite capable of avoiding National Service. All he has to do is live in Hong Kong like a good little Hong Kongese, and not go back to Singapore, because the moment he does, they'll arrest him for dodging National Service. It's not even that much of an inconvenience in the long run. Sure, it would be annoying not being able to visit family there, and not being able to use Singapore as a transit country, but that's less of an issue if he's staying in a transit hub like Hong Kong, and it's not as though he doesn't have options like Kuala Lumpur anyway, if he can't fly somewhere direct from HK. And Singapore's not that big. He can always just go to JB and meet up with his family there if he wants to go see them. The reason (I think, anyway) that he wants to give up his Singapore citizenship is not because he wants to break his ties with Singapore, but rather because he actually wants to return to the country. This little twerp wants to have his cake and eat it too, and now he's bitching because the government isn't allowing it. Well boo-friggin-hoo.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by K. A. Pital » 2012-01-20 04:37am

Simon_Jester wrote:Most of the arguments for conscript armies have to do with the desire to have a uniformly trained military- it's accepted that 10% or so of the recruits will be crappy, in exchange for knowing that everyone in the country (or at least everyone eligible) can be called up and turned back into a killing machine on relatively short notice in an emergency.

This actually worked rather well for a lot of 20th century nations.
It would still work well in case of a major conflict. So the question is whether one would occur, and that you can never know.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by PainRack » 2012-01-20 10:47pm

http://agcvldb4.agc.gov.sg/non_version/ ... EVED-CONST
Registration of minors
124. —(1) The Government may if satisfied that a child under the age of 21 years —

(a) is the child of a citizen of Singapore; and

(b) is residing in Singapore,

cause such child to be registered as a citizen of Singapore on application being made therefor in the prescribed manner by the parent or guardian of such child.

(2) The Government may, in such special circumstances as it thinks fit, cause any child under the age of 21 years to be registered as a citizen of Singapore.
Presumably, the argument is going to be made that his registration as a citizen of Singapore was involuntary and that the child doesn't want to be a citizen when he grew up.

Its NOT entirely impossible that the son doesn't want to be a citizen at all, since NS is usually the time when most citizens are reminded of their actual responsibilities. I mean, prior to the last two elections, most Singaporeans don't even get the oppurtinity to exercise the right to vote.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Lusankya » 2012-01-20 11:04pm

Yeah, and I'd totally support my 16 year old kid in moving to a completely different country, under circumstances where they might never be able to return to the country where I live without having to face up to 3 years in prison, just because they didn't want to be a citizen.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2012-01-20 11:14pm

National Service is a waste of time and a fucking joke. We are better off employing a droid army.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by mr friendly guy » 2012-01-20 11:40pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:National Service is a waste of time and a fucking joke. We are better off employing a droid army.
And you can export the technology to other countries who will pay by squadron for them. :D

Or maybe you guys can hire mercenaries to fulfil your defence needs. That works well I hear.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2012-01-21 01:02am

mr friendly guy wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:National Service is a waste of time and a fucking joke. We are better off employing a droid army.
And you can export the technology to other countries who will pay by squadron for them. :D

Or maybe you guys can hire mercenaries to fulfil your defence needs. That works well I hear.
Probably the better choice. Most of our officers have no idea what a real battle entails, and at best we are just a paper tiger.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by mr friendly guy » 2012-01-21 01:31am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Probably the better choice. Most of our officers have no idea what a real battle entails, and at best we are just a paper tiger.
Does Malaysia Do your rivals know how to fight a real battle? Because most ASEAN nations haven't actually fought a real war in ages.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by AniThyng » 2012-01-21 02:28am

mr friendly guy wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Probably the better choice. Most of our officers have no idea what a real battle entails, and at best we are just a paper tiger.
Does Malaysia Do your rivals know how to fight a real battle? Because most ASEAN nations haven't actually fought a real war in ages.
I'm not sure any superior morale/training/institutional jungle warfare experience on the part of the (all volunteer) Malaysian Armed Forces can overcome the ridiculous hardware advantage Singapore has in a hypothetical pitched battle anyway.

(I wonder if having close relatives in Malaysia disqualifies any given Chinese Singaporean soldier from 'sensitive' postings...I'm pretty sure its already a given for Malay soldiers. Also, are there plans to intern all the Malaysian PRs? :D)

Anyway, the guy spent half his life in Singapore, he should suck it up and go. You make exceptions for him and after a while you'll be making exceptions for everyone.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by PainRack » 2012-01-21 02:34am

AniThyng wrote: I'm not sure any superior morale/training/institutional jungle warfare experience on the part of the (all volunteer) Malaysian Armed Forces can overcome the ridiculous hardware advantage Singapore has in a hypothetical pitched battle anyway.

(I wonder if having close relatives in Malaysia disqualifies any given Chinese Singaporean soldier from 'sensitive' postings...I'm pretty sure its already a given for Malay soldiers. Also, are there plans to intern all the Malaysian PRs? :D)
hush. There is no such thing as racial discrimination in terms of security liason in Singapore. Malays are now intergrated into every part of Singapore life. The Americans are being slaughtered outside Baghdad.


Why, if Malays will only learn how to intergrate more with other cultures, like say, share food at the same tables with their racial colleagues, Singapore will be way more multi-cultural. I mean, Malays are only the community with the most number of inter-racial marriages in Singapore, see! They're SO insular just because they like to be more religious. They should be more like Christians, like Pastor Ho, or those distinguished ministers on the Singapore religious council. They're SO multi-cultural that one mother-fucker has no knowledge whatsoever of what Taoists practices are and then made the most balls up statement after a visit...... and she's on the frekking religious council, meant to promote religious harmony?!?!?!?!
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by AniThyng » 2012-01-21 02:41am

PainRack wrote:
AniThyng wrote: I'm not sure any superior morale/training/institutional jungle warfare experience on the part of the (all volunteer) Malaysian Armed Forces can overcome the ridiculous hardware advantage Singapore has in a hypothetical pitched battle anyway.

(I wonder if having close relatives in Malaysia disqualifies any given Chinese Singaporean soldier from 'sensitive' postings...I'm pretty sure its already a given for Malay soldiers. Also, are there plans to intern all the Malaysian PRs? :D)
hush. There is no such thing as racial discrimination in terms of security liason in Singapore. Malays are now intergrated into every part of Singapore life. The Americans are being slaughtered outside Baghdad.


Why, if Malays will only learn how to intergrate more with other cultures, like say, share food at the same tables with their racial colleagues, Singapore will be way more multi-cultural. I mean, Malays are only the community with the most number of inter-racial marriages in Singapore, see! They're SO insular just because they like to be more religious. They should be more like Christians, like Pastor Ho, or those distinguished ministers on the Singapore religious council. They're SO multi-cultural that one mother-fucker has no knowledge whatsoever of what Taoists practices are and then made the most balls up statement after a visit...... and she's on the frekking religious council, meant to promote religious harmony?!?!?!?!
I got a bit confused after the 2nd half of your rant, but yeah it's a shame Halal /non-halal issue is such an uptight thing. I mean I can respect that whole no pork thing but when you get uptight over wether the 8chicken* is halal...oh well. We'd all be better of if the attitude was "i'll just order the fish" not "we can't eat here. at all."
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by PainRack » 2012-01-21 02:56am

AniThyng wrote: I got a bit confused after the 2nd half of your rant, but yeah it's a shame Halal /non-halal issue is such an uptight thing. I mean I can respect that whole no pork thing but when you get uptight over wether the 8chicken* is halal...oh well. We'd all be better of if the attitude was "i'll just order the fish" not "we can't eat here. at all."
It isn't an issue. Not in Singapore.

To post this in a serious manner, there is a mysterious security classification where certain malays aren't given the same security access as other people, including malays. We don't know why, but the fact remains that the security and recruitment policies of Singapore features remmants of the decisions made in the 1960s and smacks of the same British divide and rule policy as then.


The second part of the rant is directed against Lee Kuan Yew Hard truth.
http://www.stpressbooks.com.sg/Lee-Kuan ... Going.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihiE4oGyYlQ

When addressing the religiosity of Singaporeans and how they might serve to divide Singapore, he neglected the actual insular nature of the Christian community and argued that a rising religious Muslim community will create another racial faultline in the future.

Its dumb and just shows how amazingly obsolete his knowledge of Singapore is at best, if not an utterly delusion concept of reality in Singapore. Again, if Malays, because of Islam were an insular community, someone please explain why Malays, had the most number of inter-racial marriages in Singapore?

Why wasn't actual heat directed towards the real problem of Christianity and evangelism? He has addressed the issue of materialism and spiritualism, but in this book, for some odd reason, he directs the spotlight on Malays and Islam as opposed to all races and Christians. While there were a few radical malays joining JI, there's a huge actual Christian shadow groups taking over AGOs, participating in civil advocacy, lobbying Parliament and etc to foister their own policies. Meanwhile, they have no qualms in spreading about actual hate speech towards other religions, although the public nature of this is "hidden" because they and other Christians don't think of it as hate speech.


ALSO, Halal isn't just whether the meat is not haram, its also whether the meat has been prepared properly. So yeah, it is an issue, but it isn't a real problem that causes, or in this case, shows Malays are insular.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by PainRack » 2012-01-21 03:36am

Essentially, he was asked the question. How was Singapore progressing on the nature of multi-racialism. He says, not to offend, but we were doing nicely until the surge in Islam came. Other races has it easier to intergrate, such as marriages, Chinese and Indian and etc, and Malays have this huge problem because it was a huge change for other people to marry and change their religion and etc. He believes that the Muslim community is heavily influenced by Arabs surge in religioisity, and that outside factors, on top of the existing disparity in education, economics and etc will be huge barriers to multi-racialism for the Malays. To further questions about things changing differently because we are secular and non-racial, he asserts that religion controls everything. Conformity to religious traditions will be problematic to intergration. The distinction between believers and non believers is essentially a huge gap, and that the muslim comunity are distinct and seperate. And thus, they should be less strict on Islam observances and ok, I will eat with you.
THE REAL issue as I point out is that while anyone can understand the germ of his arguments, its entirely unrealistic. And even if we were to address the germ of the idea, why Muslims? Christians pose a significantly more drastic problem, and is an actual problem as opposed to something that will happen in the future.


Oh wait. Christians are not a problem because they don't carry bombs around to blow things up. If they do so, he will stop them, stop the missionaries. So.... hate speech? Not a problem. Segregration? Not a problem. Anti science, anti sex, political aggrandising? Nah, seperate part of their life. This is reality and their choice...... Don't worry. We're not going to allow a Cabinet that's intolerant of homosexuals.




Of course, over here in real life, and a reminder that he's essentially not in the driving seat anymore, the Christians have finally succeeded in what their attempt to take over AWARE did. They changed the national sex education program to promote abstinence instead of ABC, remove the bits on homosexuality, scarce as it was and Catholics are happy about it.


It gets even more absurd, because his assertion that moderate christians will remain in the Cabinet..... is because Christian politicians have to be "flexible" and attend multi-racial, multi-religious festivals and rituals or they will "lose votes". I'm sorry, I do know your book came out after the opposition began to contest seats again but are you freaking nuts? This was before the 2011 election and the watershed moment of an entire GRC being lost. The election before that, the opposition only "began" to mount an assault on the districts. Weeks before the elections began, while the opposition parties could actually contest many districts, it was never clear if they would actually do so.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2012-01-21 04:01am

Oh there is discrimination against Muslims in The SAF. I can't say much, since I signed the dotted line about 3 times at least.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2012-01-21 04:06am

mr friendly guy wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Probably the better choice. Most of our officers have no idea what a real battle entails, and at best we are just a paper tiger.
Does Malaysia Do your rivals know how to fight a real battle? Because most ASEAN nations haven't actually fought a real war in ages.
I think the real future foe is not SEA, but China.
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Re: Hong Kong-born teen trying to give up Singapore citizens

Post by mr friendly guy » 2012-01-21 04:23am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Probably the better choice. Most of our officers have no idea what a real battle entails, and at best we are just a paper tiger.
Does Malaysia Do your rivals know how to fight a real battle? Because most ASEAN nations haven't actually fought a real war in ages.
I think the real future foe is not SEA, but China.
Oh? I know China has territorial disputes with some ASEAN countries, but I didn't realise Singapore was one of them. Do you have some sort of mutual defense treaty or something with the other ASEAN nations?
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

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