Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1713
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by bobalot »

Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Loggers in Brazil captured an eight-year-old girl from one of the Amazon's last uncontacted tribes and burned her alive as part of a campaign to force the indigenous population from its land, reports claimed on Tuesday night.

The child was said to have wandered away from her village, where around 60 members of the Awá tribe live a primitive life in complete isolation from the modern world, and fallen into the hands of the loggers.

Luis Carlos Guajajaras, a local leader from a separate tribe, told a Brazilian news website that they tied to her a tree and set her alight as a warning to other natives, who live in a protected reserve in the north-eastern state of Maranhão .

"She was from another tribe, they live deep in the jungle, and have no contact with the outside world. It would have been the first time she had ever seen white men. We heard that they laughed as they burned her to death," he said.

Reports of the killing, which was said to have happened in October or November last year, were seconded by the Indigenous Missionary Council (CIMI), a Catholic group which said it had seen footage of her charred remains.

A spokesman for the Brazil's Indian Affairs Department said the government was urgently investigating the claims.

Huge iron ore deposits and valuable timber have encouraged mining and logging companies to enter the forests of Maranhão despite laws designed to protect the few remaining uncontacted tribes, often leading to violent clashes.

Around 450 tribes people have were murdered in Brazil between 2003 and 2010, according to figures from CIMI.

Survival, a charity for tribal groups, warned that a third of the Awá's land had already been destroyed and that their nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle was being threatened as animals fled in the face of the approaching logging companies.
Source

Seriously, what the fuck?
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28723
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Broomstick »

People can be utterly brutal sadists, especially where money is concerned and the victims are helpless.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2760
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by AniThyng »

I can't wait to see a spirited discussion of how RDA the logging company was totally within its rights to force the Na'vi Awa out by brutal and deliberate application of terror for profit and for materials vital to the survival of civilization.
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
wautd
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7570
Joined: 2004-02-11 10:11am
Location: Intensive care

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by wautd »

Sickening. There are no other words.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Purple »

wautd wrote:Sickening. There are no other words.
No, there are plenty of other words. Words that you could use to write a 1 terabyte large essay on the essence of pure evil and still not run out. Seriously, what kind of fucked up person does one have to be to do this. I don't want to live on this planet any more.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by PeZook »

Purple wrote: No, there are plenty of other words. Words that you could use to write a 1 terabyte large essay on the essence of pure evil and still not run out. Seriously, what kind of fucked up person does one have to be to do this. I don't want to live on this planet any more.
You can only be surprised by this if you hadn't paid attention. This has happened time and time again throughout history. All you have to do is dehumanize the victim, and you will find yourself doing utterly disgusting things to them, like cutting open a pregnant woman's belly, ripping the fetus out and smashing it on the pavement, or burning children alive, or performing medical experiments on them, or burying people alive or any of the countless other brutal things people have done, and continue to do, to each other.

And if you leave this planet? Take heart in the thought that you are not that different, so you'll be taking the beast with you to the stars. Anyone can be turned into a vicious murderer, it is only a matter of pressing the right buttons.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Purple »

Just becouse its no surprise or rare does not mean its not complete and utter evil that makes me want to throw up and than go and do worse things to them. And yes, I do understand exactly what you are saying. For all it takes for me is that small step of reading this article to set me in the same set of mind toward these men that they were when they did what they did. I know that beneath the rational part of me there is an animal part that wants to strap them all to trees and burn them alive. And that IS indeed the scary part. But for now, I think I will settle for angry and disgusted and leave scared for later.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Aharon
Youngling
Posts: 54
Joined: 2010-12-27 12:11pm

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Aharon »

PeZook wrote:
Purple wrote: No, there are plenty of other words. Words that you could use to write a 1 terabyte large essay on the essence of pure evil and still not run out. Seriously, what kind of fucked up person does one have to be to do this. I don't want to live on this planet any more.
You can only be surprised by this if you hadn't paid attention. This has happened time and time again throughout history. All you have to do is dehumanize the victim, and you will find yourself doing utterly disgusting things to them, like cutting open a pregnant woman's belly, ripping the fetus out and smashing it on the pavement, or burning children alive, or performing medical experiments on them, or burying people alive or any of the countless other brutal things people have done, and continue to do, to each other.

And if you leave this planet? Take heart in the thought that you are not that different, so you'll be taking the beast with you to the stars. Anyone can be turned into a vicious murderer, it is only a matter of pressing the right buttons.
I thought there was a small minority of people who can't be pushed to act like that? I.e. people in the Milgram experiment that didn't cooperate/people that helped Jews in WWII, etc. Of course, one can't take for granted that one belongs to that minority before having been in such a situation oneself, but I find the thought that no, not everybody can be pushed to act like that, comforting.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by PeZook »

Aharon wrote: I thought there was a small minority of people who can't be pushed to act like that? I.e. people in the Milgram experiment that didn't cooperate/people that helped Jews in WWII, etc. Of course, one can't take for granted that one belongs to that minority before having been in such a situation oneself, but I find the thought that no, not everybody can be pushed to act like that, comforting.
It's only a tiny minority, though. Obviously different people have different levels of pressure that needs to be applied. Sometimes you need months or years to make someone be able to commit murder on command, sometimes all it takes is someone with authority telling you that it's okay to burn an eight year old alive because it's the only thing that will make the red man move.

But true, there are some people who really can't be made to act like monsters, and I suppose it really is a comforting thought.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5193
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by LaCroix »

PeZook wrote:But true, there are some people who really can't be made to act like monsters, and I suppose it really is a comforting thought.
Probably just the wrong stimulus. That they were to help Jews/won't torture some stranger doesn't mean they wouldn't act inhumanely cruel against a different subgroup (Muslims, for example) or people who have hurt their loved ones.

We are all monsters, just the button isn't the same.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2760
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by AniThyng »

PeZook wrote:
Aharon wrote: I thought there was a small minority of people who can't be pushed to act like that? I.e. people in the Milgram experiment that didn't cooperate/people that helped Jews in WWII, etc. Of course, one can't take for granted that one belongs to that minority before having been in such a situation oneself, but I find the thought that no, not everybody can be pushed to act like that, comforting.
It's only a tiny minority, though. Obviously different people have different levels of pressure that needs to be applied. Sometimes you need months or years to make someone be able to commit murder on command, sometimes all it takes is someone with authority telling you that it's okay to burn an eight year old alive because it's the only thing that will make the red man move.

But true, there are some people who really can't be made to act like monsters, and I suppose it really is a comforting thought.
If you apply enough distance to the act I'm sure it becomes easier - does it really make a difference in the end if you were burned to death in person by sadists or by a napalm bomb dropped from 5000 feet from a jet fighter piloted by a fine young officer and a gentleman?
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Serafina »

My personal rule: Never say how i will act in any given situation unless i have been in a similar situation once before.

Everyone likes to think "of course i will help bystanders, protect innocents and help others. Of course i won't panic, torture people, make stupid mistakes, be cruel to my subordinates" and such. Because everyone likes to think that he is a good, heroic guy.
But unless you have been in such a situation that's just wishful thinking.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

So, when are we going to apply the word "terrorist" the loggers, miners, and oil extractors operating in the third world and start secreting their corporate heads to black sites in eastern europe and central asia?
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Purple
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5233
Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Purple »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:So, when are we going to apply the word "terrorist" the loggers, miners, and oil extractors operating in the third world and start secreting their corporate heads to black sites in eastern europe and central asia?
The day that:
a) Magical elves come across the great ocean with ships to carry us off to a land of eternal wealth and abundance
b) A new world revolution occurs bringing forth communism and a ban on multinational corporations
c) Government officials around the world suddenly grow a spine and stop pandering to the corporations in exchange for money and positions

Sorted in order of likelihood, top-down.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Simon_Jester »

LaCroix wrote:
PeZook wrote:But true, there are some people who really can't be made to act like monsters, and I suppose it really is a comforting thought.
Probably just the wrong stimulus. That they were to help Jews/won't torture some stranger doesn't mean they wouldn't act inhumanely cruel against a different subgroup (Muslims, for example) or people who have hurt their loved ones.

We are all monsters, just the button isn't the same.
Serafina wrote:My personal rule: Never say how i will act in any given situation unless i have been in a similar situation once before.

Everyone likes to think "of course i will help bystanders, protect innocents and help others. Of course i won't panic, torture people, make stupid mistakes, be cruel to my subordinates" and such. Because everyone likes to think that he is a good, heroic guy.
But unless you have been in such a situation that's just wishful thinking.
Juxtaposed, these two make me think. Yes, you never say how you'll act in a given situation, but it can be grossly premature to assume you know how all the members of humanity will act. So I would take LaCroix's argument with a grain of salt. It's an unfalsifiable claim, since we can't actually take a hypothetical saint and do controlled testing on them to see if they are capable of inhuman cruelty after they're subject to some hypothetical stimulus and directed against some particular group they'd never even meet in real life.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28723
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Broomstick »

LaCroix wrote:
PeZook wrote:But true, there are some people who really can't be made to act like monsters, and I suppose it really is a comforting thought.
Probably just the wrong stimulus. That they were to help Jews/won't torture some stranger doesn't mean they wouldn't act inhumanely cruel against a different subgroup (Muslims, for example) or people who have hurt their loved ones.

We are all monsters, just the button isn't the same.
Nope, there probably ARE some people who really, really will NOT act as monsters. Rare, as noted. However, there are instances in history where a very few have chosen to die rather than inflict horror on others.

I view it as the flip side of the serial killer/complete psychopath - just as there are people who are monsters regardless of influences to restrain such impulses, there are probably folks who are just the opposite, they just won't do it, even if tortured or killed.

The latter is, of course, a very tiny minority. There are probably many more resistant to such things who could, given enough time, be broken done and do them.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by PeZook »

I'd wager that while for some people perhaps there exists a theoretical possibility that they might be broken, the threshold is high enough that for all intents and purposes it's impossible.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I expect these forests to be burned and the people who live there to be killed or displaced in that process. It's so sad.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Rahvin »

Broomstick wrote:I view it as the flip side of the serial killer/complete psychopath - just as there are people who are monsters regardless of influences to restrain such impulses, there are probably folks who are just the opposite, they just won't do it, even if tortured or killed.
I'm not so sure. The Milgram experiment showed, as mentioned, that only a minority would stop torturing another human being to what appeared to be death.

But the people who did it didn't need to be tortured or threatened. They were instructed to continue in a calm, firm voice. All they had to do was refuse three scripted instructions to continue, and the experiment would be over. And almost nobody refused, nearly all of them continued.

If a stern voice is all that's required to make 65% of people administer what appears to be a lethal electric shock to a stranger, I'm not at all confident to say what people will do when threatened with actual harm or the deaths of themselves or loved ones.

There have been heroic individuals who have stood up agaisnt torture, but the conditions were different. The Milgram experiment provided an authority the subjects would recognize (as opposed to an enemy interrogator) taking responsibility for their actions, involved no animosity or enmity between the test subjects, and involved no sense of urgency beyond the stern instructions of the scientist. Imagine if the victim was an individual or a member of a group that the subject strongly disliked. Imagine if the subject was told that the victim possessed information that could save lives if gained quickly. Imagine the subject was told that if he did not press the button, he would be shocked to death instead. Imagine if the subject were told that his family would be killed if he didn't shock a socially outcast individual, like a convicted felon.

I don't know what I would do. I know what I'd like to think I would do, but I just don't know. Find the right button - someone I dislike enough, or starve me into submission, or torture me, or make the right threats, and I might do something I would find deplorable. I hope not, but human beings are animals and our brains work in specific ways, and a cleverly amoral person could take advantage of that.

It's possible there are perfectly good people in the world who would never intentionally harm another human being for any reason regardless of circumstance, but I'm fairly certain I've never met one, and I probably never will.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:So, when are we going to apply the word "terrorist" the loggers, miners, and oil extractors operating in the third world and start secreting their corporate heads to black sites in eastern europe and central asia?
Sure, just as soon as we get done carpet bombing some of these indigenous tribes for using lethal chemical weapons in the form of poison arrows and darts.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Terralthra »

The Milgram experiment didn't result in "almost nobody" refusing to administer the higher-level shocks. 65% of participants were willing to press the 450-volt shock, and a fair number of those expressed concern, discomfort, or willingness to refund the fee they were paid as part of the experiment when asked.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Rahvin »

Terralthra wrote:The Milgram experiment didn't result in "almost nobody" refusing to administer the higher-level shocks. 65% of participants were willing to press the 450-volt shock, and a fair number of those expressed concern, discomfort, or willingness to refund the fee they were paid as part of the experiment when asked.
Nearly all of them expressed signs of stress and asked if they could stop at least once. But that wasn't the point - the point is that 65% of people continued right up until the "lethal" shock, and all it took to keep them going despite their concerns was a reminder that they "won't be held responsible" or a stern instruction that they "must continue."

If the experiment had been real and people were actually committing murder, the argument that "I expressed concern and discomfort with the instructions, and I offered to refund the fee if I could be allowed to stop" wouldn't make them any less guilty, they still did it, and all it took for them to be murderers and torturers, reluctant or otherwise, was instruction from an authority figure.

That 65% of people require such a low level of coercion (ie, none), a little detachment from the victim, and no actual reason to want to hurt the other person, to (reluctantly) torture a person to death makes me extremely skeptical of any claim that - given real forms of coercion - some number of people would still refuse to go all the way.

As for the "almost nobody" bit, that was a misstatement on my part. I was arguing from (inaccurate) memory before I actually looked up the 65% number, and I missed it when I corrected the rest. Thanks for catching it.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28723
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Broomstick »

Rahvin wrote:
Terralthra wrote:The Milgram experiment didn't result in "almost nobody" refusing to administer the higher-level shocks. 65% of participants were willing to press the 450-volt shock, and a fair number of those expressed concern, discomfort, or willingness to refund the fee they were paid as part of the experiment when asked.
Nearly all of them expressed signs of stress and asked if they could stop at least once. But that wasn't the point - the point is that 65% of people continued right up until the "lethal" shock, and all it took to keep them going despite their concerns was a reminder that they "won't be held responsible" or a stern instruction that they "must continue."
But did any of those participants actually believe that they were being ordered to kill someone? Did they actually believe that an experiment done at Yale would involve murder?

Didn't the experimenter, if the participant expressed concern about actual harm, reassure the person that even if the shocks were painful, there would be no permanent damage?

Consider that this is very different than a situation where a hostile authority orders you to commit frank murder, where the person really does believe that the situation involves murder and permanent harm.

While the Milgram experiment is disturbingly informative, it is far from the last word on the subject. WWII showed many examples of people being willing to torture, starve, and kill others, yet at the same time many others risk their lives, and the lives of their families, to help others in a situation where there was absolutely no doubt that being caught doing so would mean suffering and death, and plenty of incentive to play along with authority. We need to look at how people act in reality and not just in simulations.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

But did any of those participants actually believe that they were being ordered to kill someone? Did they actually believe that an experiment done at Yale would involve murder?
Yes. It was made very clear through labeling and the confederate actor's protestations that the shocks were lethal.
Didn't the experimenter, if the participant expressed concern about actual harm, reassure the person that even if the shocks were painful, there would be no permanent damage?
No
While the Milgram experiment is disturbingly informative, it is far from the last word on the subject. WWII showed many examples of people being willing to torture, starve, and kill others, yet at the same time many others risk their lives, and the lives of their families, to help others in a situation where there was absolutely no doubt that being caught doing so would mean suffering and death, and plenty of incentive to play along with authority. We need to look at how people act in reality and not just in simulations.
Ah reality. The stanford prison experiment, the various replications that were done there... including field replication in Abu gihrab(sp) and numerous other prison environments. The Holocaust

The central theme in all of them is that dehumanizing someone is the best way to get someone to torture and kill them. It does not take much. Not being able to see their face, telling them the other person is inferior. That is all. It is the difference between someone who hides jews in their attack vs a person who helps out Mengele in his lab.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5193
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Loggers 'burned Amazon tribe girl alive'

Post by LaCroix »

PeZook wrote:I'd wager that while for some people perhaps there exists a theoretical possibility that they might be broken, the threshold is high enough that for all intents and purposes it's impossible.
I could agree to this.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
Post Reply