All hail new Libya...

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K. A. Pital
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All hail new Libya...

Post by K. A. Pital »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... c-law.html
Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, the chairman of the National Transitional Council and de fact president, had already declared that Libyan laws in future would have Sharia, the Islamic code, as its "basic source".

But that formulation can be interpreted in many ways - it was also the basis of Egypt's largely secular constitution under President Hosni Mubarak, and remains so after his fall.

Mr Abdul-Jalil went further, specifically lifting immediately, by decree, one law from Col. Gaddafi's era that he said was in conflict with Sharia - that banning polygamy.

In a blow to those who hoped to see Libya's economy integrate further into the western world, he announced that in future bank regulations would ban the charging of interest, in line with Sharia. "Interest creates disease and hatred among people," he said.
Good to know that not only Belhadj is an islamist, but the so-called "Western liberal" is actually a fan of poligamy. :luv: And these people are taking joy in Gaddafi's death?
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I was trying to type some kind of smarmy assholish response to this to rub peoples noses in, but I think this thing speaks for itself. Man, wow. Well... uh... freedom!
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Since even in the secular West you hear "legalize polygamy" from some quarters, in itself I'm not sure this is a disaster. You could have a pleasant, tolerant Muslim society with legal polygyny.

That doesn't mean Libya's going to get one, obviously.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Problem is, those are from "some quarters" in the secular West are considered morons, not the, uh, leader of the transiberian coalition of freedom or whatever the movement now ruling Libya is. And in the secular West, everyone doesn't really do that, whereas in the Fundamentalistic Muslimismistic Muslimist Middle East, those "some quarters" amount to a whole lot of spare change.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by K. A. Pital »

Part of the problem is that Abdelhakim Belhadj (the head of the islamist LIFG - essentially the Libyan version of the Taliban, an armed movement aimed to overthrow Gaddafi and install an islamist regime, who controls lots of boots on the ground) said sometime in August that he's not going to take orders from Jalil and Jalil must "step down". It seems like Jalil wants to reassert his influence over the Libyan islamists who form the core of the "rebel" military units. That's why. Libya's slide to radical islamism was preordained; the rebellion against Gaddafi wasn't even trying to hide that it was affiliated with Qatar's oil sheikhs and Al-Quaeda at all.

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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by derp vader »

I say NATO dollars well spent. Legalizing polygamy is the first step to legalizing polyandry, meaning Libya is progressing nicely in becoming the swinger capital of the world.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Mr. Coffee »

So wait, us and NATO wasted how much money helping these fuckwits out only for them to go all Sharia and west hating on us?

Goddamnit, we bombed the wrong brown people. Again.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Narkis »

Oh, don't worry. I'm sure all kinds of western companies will aid in the reconstruction, bringing wealth and prosperity to both our people and theirs.

Think of the bombs as an investment. ;)
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Stark »

Wasn't this hells obvious ages ago? I have no idea where all the idealism around this revolution came from, but the only question really is did any decision-makers in the west actually expect anything else to happen. I mean, it's not like this guy is a manchurian muslim; I bet he made speeches about exactly what he planned to do once he took power. If Stas noticed his policies, I'm sure Washington did.

I know, I know - a revolution? Putting assholes in power? It's inconcievable.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by MKSheppard »

I was talking with MARIPOOH over this a night or two ago, regarding the likely future for Libya and the Arab world in general now that Kol Krazy is DOA and the "Arab Spring" has chalked up another kill mark.

I then talked a bit more with Shroomy, and he told me to coherentize what I was talking to him about, as it was more intruiging than RAR GRAEPHS and NUKE THEM ALL:

--------------

Right now what we're seeing is the failure of the arab dictatorships.

They tried semi-secularism+socialism in 1950-1970ies, and it didn't work.

Even during that period, they still used Islam to try and hold together the country and explain away the shortcomings of the regime or to gin up anti-Israel fever when necessary.

"Kill the j00s and drive them into the sea!"

or

"The j00s are responsible for why the stores in Cario run out of bread at 2 PM"

They then got an extra lease on life when some of them semi-embraced islamism in the 1980ies, etc.

The most notable case of this was GEN Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq's rule in Pakistan; where he embraced Islamization as a way to cement his own legimitacy after he had Bhutto executed. His rule is largely why Pakistan is the way it is today, with the ISI being a largely separate organization within the government answering to nobody.

That lease of life is expiring now, as their cupboards are now totally bare; revealing them as total shams and frauds.

By contrast, the Islamist movements have been repressed or controlled so tightly by the dictators for so long, that they've formed the only credible alternative power base that has not yet been discredited or distrusted by the masses.

Thus, when Islamist politicans promise that if the country adopts strict islamic principles and Shariah, a new road of prosperity will open up; the people believe them, or are willing to give them the doubt; because they have yet to be totally discredited.

What this is likely to lead to is another Cold War type "Long War" of containment where necessary.

9/11 and various other attacks like Mumbai showed us that we can't just sit back and consider Islamism and the crazy shit some of these loons spout as being "not our problem".

...yet at the same time, Afghanam and Vietraq have shown us that we can't pull them into modernity ahead of their natural timeframes.

So we face a really huge conundrum here.

The prospect of Islamism discrediting itself in the next five to ten years are not....good, because Africa for example; has yet to learn that brutal tribalism doesn't work after 40-50 years of trying it.

(all the talk about socialist/marxist/christian/etc movements was just that -- talk to disguise the fact that it was always a brutal tribal war at it's core, with whatever flavor of -ism of the moment being used to justify killing your neighbor and taking his cows)

BTW, if you want to know what I mean by Islamism; try this on for size:

Link
Egyptian jailed for Facebook Islam insult
By Samer al-Atrush (AFP)

CAIRO — An Egyptian court sentenced a man to three years in jail with hard labour on Saturday for insulting Islam in postings on Facebook, the official MENA news agency reported.

The Cairo court found that Ayman Yusef Mansur "intentionally insulted the dignity of the Islamic religion and attacked it with insults and ridicule on Facebook," the agency reported.

The court said his insults were "aimed at the Noble Koran, the true Islamic religion, the Prophet of Islam and his family and Muslims, in a scurrilous manner," the agency reported.

It did not provide details on what he had written that was deemed to be offensive.

Mansur was arrested in August after police tracked him down through his internet address.

Egyptian law outlaws insults to religion. The law has been used in the past to try Shiite Muslims.
It's not all gloom and doom however.

CHINA and the other ASIAN TIGERS likely will speed up the process of discrediting Islamism as a complete political/legal construct by simply being themselves.

Pretty much all of the Arab states import almost half of their cereal crops, and directly subsidize food prices -- rising food prices helped provide some of the spark for the ARAB SPRING movements.

The rising economies of Asia are placing a lot of pressure on the food staple market -- the Chinese and others want to eat more than just rice -- they want to sit down in Beijing and have a nice steak every so often.

Because of the booming Chinese GDP, they have the money to do this, and by buying up all the previously cheap food on the market, force the Arab states out of the market. Proclaiming your piety and adopting Shariah principles won't feed the masses...
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Re: All hail new Libya...

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It's kind of funny how the complex problem of dealing with a conflict that has the potential to not only destablise the region but also kill lots of essentially innocent people gets turned into an exercise in points scoring on SDN. Fuck America, I guess?
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Re: All hail new Libya...

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thejester wrote:It's kind of funny how the complex problem of dealing with a conflict that has the potential to not only destablise the region but also kill lots of essentially innocent people gets turned into an exercise in points scoring on SDN. Fuck America, I guess?
Is that a jab at me? I noted that the Libyan intervention smelled awfully bad even waaay before this.
Shep wrote:They tried semi-secularism+socialism in 1950-1970ies, and it didn't work.
You're a bit wrong on Libya here, Shep. Gaddafi before the very late 1970s didn't enact much reform in Libya at all. Only in the early 1980s he crushed the clergy, introduced rather strict secularization laws (like e.g. ban on polygamy and other things) and nationalized all trade and industry in Libya. He started "reforming" Libya in the 1990s, with some rapproachment with the West after 2001, and with CIA's help he actually caught most LIFG fighters (but released them from prison in 2010 right on the eve of the events). Libya remained more or less secularized until now. So it did work for dozens of years. Islamism was never easy to quell; just look at Syria and the Hama bloodbath in the 1980s. And yet, secularism was working until now.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by thejester »

Stas Bush wrote:
thejester wrote:It's kind of funny how the complex problem of dealing with a conflict that has the potential to not only destablise the region but also kill lots of essentially innocent people gets turned into an exercise in points scoring on SDN. Fuck America, I guess?
Is that a jab at me? I noted that the Libyan intervention smelled awfully bad even waaay before this.
...and? Not only does that make you totally mundane amongst anyone following this in any sort of detail, it in no way invalidates my criticism of your post. Complex issue? Nah fuck that, we can act smugly towards 'those people'!

If nothing else - what does this guys policies have to do with celebrating Qadaffi's death? Personally I think celebrating death is pretty crass but I'm not sure how the fact the guy coming afterwards is still shit invalidates joy at the passing of a particularly nasty man. Man, better not remember VE Day cause the GDR was a totalitarian regime!
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I love the smell of September in the morning. Once we got off at Richmond, walked up to the 'G, and there was no game on. Not one footballer in sight. But that cut grass smell, spring rain...it smelt like victory.

Dynamic. When [Kuznetsov] decided he was going to make a difference, he did it...Like Ovechkin...then you find out - he's with Washington too? You're kidding.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by K. A. Pital »

thejester wrote:...and? Not only does that make you totally mundane amongst anyone following this in any sort of detail, it in no way invalidates my criticism of your post. Complex issue? Nah fuck that, we can act smugly towards 'those people'!
Who is acting smugly towards 'those people', thejester? :wtf: "Complex issue"? Women's rights were in far better shape under Gaddafi, as were inter-racial relations in Libya, and that was noted by fucking everyone. So when I demonstrate the logical outcome of an uprising dominated by radical, militant islamists from the LIFG, you start harping about how I'm just writing "fuck America" posts.

What does this have to do with America particularly, praytell? Europe did a lot more in this military intervention.
thejester wrote:If nothing else - what does this guys policies have to do with celebrating Qadaffi's death?
Indeed, what do Jibril and Belhajd have to do with Gaddafi, except being the leaders of a rebellion which deposed and killed him (not without NATO intervention, but it was still a large-scale civil war)? Absolutely nothing!
thejester wrote:Personally I think celebrating death is pretty crass but I'm not sure how the fact the guy coming afterwards is still shit invalidates joy at the passing of a particularly nasty man. Man, better not remember VE Day cause the GDR was a totalitarian regime!
Except Gaddafi's "nastiness" was confined to the fact he was (a) a typical Arab secular dictator (b) blew up Westerners. Yeah I'm sure you can't let go because of Lockerbie, but if that makes him "particularly nasty", I'm going to laugh in your face.
thejester wrote:better not remember VE Day cause the GDR was a totalitarian regime!
The GDR was better than Nazi Germany in most aspects - it wasn't actively wiping out dozens of millions of subhumans. On the other hand, only an idiot would celebrate the "victory" of the Taliban in the Afghani Civil War, which is a more direct and close analogue.

Najibullah was a "nasty secular dictator" and so that means let's celebrate his fall at the hands of the Taliban! :lol:
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Re: All hail new Libya...

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That's fucking hilarious dude. The guy is the Libyan Taliban? A month ago he was loudly proclaiming to cheering crowds in Tripoli that women would remain empowered in government - we all know how much the Taliban loved to do that! The danger of analogies, I guess. The danger of talking to you as well it would seem, cause you missed the point pretty spectacularly - that your feelings on the previous regime need in no way be tied to the death toll of the following one. It's not inherently contradictory to be happy that Gaddafi is dead and upset that it's the NTC coming to power.

It's also pretty funny you're appalled by the potential for women's rights to regress in Libya, yet you casually dismiss Qadaffi as 'just another secular Arab dictator'. I don't have any particular feelings about Lockerbie beyond it was bad that several hundred people died; I was more thinking the external aggression, the years of targeted political assassinations abroad, the expulsion of minority groups, the mass repression internally...I'd hope that something good comes out of Libya. I suspect, like you, that one terrible regime will be replaced with another. Unlike you, I'm not going to use the opportunity to go 'told you so Image'
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I love the smell of September in the morning. Once we got off at Richmond, walked up to the 'G, and there was no game on. Not one footballer in sight. But that cut grass smell, spring rain...it smelt like victory.

Dynamic. When [Kuznetsov] decided he was going to make a difference, he did it...Like Ovechkin...then you find out - he's with Washington too? You're kidding.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by K. A. Pital »

thejester wrote:That's fucking hilarious dude. The guy is the Libyan Taliban?
Not Jibril, no, he's just your mundane moron trying to keep his sway over islamists. Taliban's here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelhakim_Belhadj
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Isl ... ting_Group
thejester wrote:A month ago he was loudly proclaiming to cheering crowds in Tripoli that women would remain empowered in government - we all know how much the Taliban loved to do that! The danger of analogies, I guess. The danger of talking to you as well it would seem, cause you missed the point pretty spectacularly - that your feelings on the previous regime need in no way be tied to the death toll of the following one. It's not inherently contradictory to be happy that Gaddafi is dead and upset that it's the NTC coming to power.
The NTC is not Taliban, but it is relying on the Taliban-like LIFG to come to power. This is why. And please, actions speak for a thousand words.
thejester wrote:It's also pretty funny you're appalled by the potential for women's rights to regress in Libya, yet you casually dismiss Qadaffi as 'just another secular Arab dictator'.
Yes I do because Gaddafi was a lot better than Hussein, for instance. He was a lot less dictatorial and worked to improve the economic conditions in Libya as well as rights of women and national minorities.
thejester wrote:I was more thinking the external aggression, the years of targeted political assassinations abroad, the expulsion of minority groups, the mass repression internally...
Hussein used WMDs during the asssault on Iran, Hussein attacked Kuwait, Hussein killed dozens if not hundreds of thousands of people during the repression of separatist movements and religious movements in Iraq, and yet people find it perfectly reasonable to oppose the Iraq war and the chaos and religious violence that followed Hussein's deposal. Gaddafi did nothing of the sort. Yet people find it reasonable to castigate me for expressing reasonable regret with the actions of Gaddafi's successors! :lol:
thejester wrote:Unlike you, I'm not going to use the opportunity to go 'told you so
Maybe because you didn't say "told you so" before. I suspected a problem when LIFG was storming Tripoli and reports of Al-Quaeda's and Qatar's support to the TNC and specifically LIFG surfaced, now it has become obvious.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Crateria »

How many of the boots on the ground do the Islamists control? That will be a big thing in determining whether or not they'll be turning it into Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan v2.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by MKSheppard »

Stas(i) Bush wrote:You're a bit wrong on Libya here, Shep. Gaddafi before the very late 1970s didn't enact much reform in Libya at all.
He closed bars and nightclubs almost immediately after taking office, and also banned entertainment deemed immodest.

Shortly afterwards, he made use of the islamic calendar mandatory (along with some crazy stuff like renaming a month after Nasser).

By November 1973 -- only four years after his coup -- he put in place a new legal code issued that revised the Libyan Judical system to conform to Shariah.

Among the changes were:
  • Armed robbery was now punishable by amputation of a hand or foot.
  • Flogging was proscribed for people who broke the Ramadan fast.
  • Fornication by men or women was punishable by up to 80 lashes.
By 1977, the General People's Congress was saying that all future legal codes would be based on the Koran.
Only in the early 1980s he crushed the clergy, introduced rather strict secularization laws
Because he started saying crazy things that were totally at odds with Islamic orthodoxy; like how the Islamic calendar should mark the years since Mo's death, instead of the traditional system; among other crazy things; which made him a target for the more mainline/radical islamists.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by K. A. Pital »

MKSheppard wrote:
Stas(i) Bush wrote:You're a bit wrong on Libya here, Shep. Gaddafi before the very late 1970s didn't enact much reform in Libya at all.
He closed bars and nightclubs almost immediately after taking office, and also banned entertainment deemed immodest.

Shortly afterwards, he made use of the islamic calendar mandatory (along with some crazy stuff like renaming a month after Nasser).

By November 1973 -- only four years after his coup -- he put in place a new legal code issued that revised the Libyan Judical system to conform to Shariah.

Among the changes were:
  • Armed robbery was now punishable by amputation of a hand or foot.
  • Flogging was proscribed for people who broke the Ramadan fast.
  • Fornication by men or women was punishable by up to 80 lashes.
By 1977, the General People's Congress was saying that all future legal codes would be based on the Koran.
Only in the early 1980s he crushed the clergy, introduced rather strict secularization laws
Because he started saying crazy things that were totally at odds with Islamic orthodoxy; like how the Islamic calendar should mark the years since Mo's death, instead of the traditional system; among other crazy things; which made him a target for the more mainline/radical islamists.
Yeah, but your thesis was the opposite: "they first tried secularism and later islamization". In case of Libya, that was vice-versa - they tried islamization in the 1970s, that didn't work (and Gaddafi was unhappy with the clerics too), so they tried secularism and it worked for 40 years, giving them a reasonably high life level, education et cetera. However, 40 years is not enough to matter, I fear - you can easily undo that if you apply enough power.

I'm not even sure you correctly describe what happened in the early 1970s. This book seems more accurate - Gaddafi used islam in his power struggle, but already in 1974 - one year after past the "revolutionary Quaranic code" the application of hadd punishments cease, apparently (see p. 111, differences between Libya and Iran).

I'm sure some would like to paint Gaddafi as some sort of islamizer but the truth is he was attempting islamization only for a very short term and only to gain power; his actions, on the other hand, demonstrated strong secularization. Especially in the women's rights sphere where progress from the late 1960s to late 1990s has been immense.
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Silvertongue »

derp vader wrote:I say NATO dollars well spent. Legalizing polygamy is the first step to legalizing polyandry, meaning Libya is progressing nicely in becoming the swinger capital of the world.
I'm all for it if it floats your boat, but as I see it, polygamy must have careful implementation. Everyone in the adventuring party must be fully equiped emotionally, and be a consenting adult with resources to leave if the situation goes bad. Unfortunately, If I recall correctly, polygamy has a history of child brides.
At this time in Libyas history, I have concerns that they would have the sophistication to pull it off without creating abusive situations.
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Boeing 757
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Re: All hail new Libya...

Post by Boeing 757 »

I think that it ought to be beared in mind that Libya's people is still too backward and out of touch from such a secular lifestyle as that which the West enjoys in order to embrace it fully. Even with Islamists coming forth to take control of the state, there is a great opportunity here for the Libyians to choose their own destiny and modernize themselves with freedom and the rule of law in mind...provided of course that they do truly establish a working democracy given over to allowing each viewpoint a chance to be heard. It is too early to tell how things shall play out at this time. Though I hope the best of wishes to their success.
Omnia praesumuntur legitime facta donec probetur in contrarium.

Kritisches Denken schützt vor Illusionen.

Παν μέτρον άριστον τῷ κρατίστῳ.
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