Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Count Chocula »

Jesus Christ. He was born in America from Yemeni immigrants, moved back to Yemen to be steeped in fundamentalist Islam when he was seven, and came back to America for technotactical college training. His (correct) interpretation of Islam was "submission," and he preached that message. He was a fucking AQ recruiter and strategist. As others have observed, it's absurd to claim that his killing by drones and/or attack aircraft is a legal slippery slope.

Scratch another would-be theocrat.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by MKSheppard »

YES! YES!

We got Samir Khan too!

Samir is another American who went overseas to propagandize for Al-Q, he started the glossy magazine Inspire for 'em -- he even did a nice article in it that went:

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Old Samir survived the first missile. Too bad we fired a second.

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REPORTING FROM WASHINGTON -- U.S. operatives on the ground in Yemen used fingerprint analysis to confirm that a joint CIA-military drone strike Friday killed American militants Anwar Awlaki and Samir Khan, according to a U.S. government official briefed on the operation.

“It was good to see the Yemen government actually allow us to go in,” the official said on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record. “Allowing us to go on the property and get fingerprint analysis was a nice gesture of cooperation by the Yemeni government.”

Information about Awlaki’s location came from the interrogation of an operative of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula held in Yemeni custody. Samir Khan was not targeted in the strike, but fingerprint analysis after the fact confirmed he was killed as well, said the official.

“Samir Khan was a bonus. It was a twofer,” said Rep. Mike McCaul (R-Texas), who serves on the House Committee on Homeland Security. “It’s a pretty good hit.”

Mohammed Albasha, spokesman for the Yemeni Embassy in Washington, confirmed that Yemeni intelligence recently located Awlaki at a hideout in the town of Khashef, near the border with Saudi Arabia.

Awlaki was riding in a convoy of vehicles when the airstrike hit the motorcade, killing him, Khan and two other Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula operatives, Albasha said in an email.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by hongi »

What legal protection is there to stop you, any of you, from being put on the list?

Also, we need a dystopian movie made out of this stat. American Sulla and his proscriptions!
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

hongi wrote:What legal protection is there to stop you, any of you, from being put on the list?
Nothing, which is why I'm baffled that many of the people screaming Bush was Evil Incarnate are now cheering this.
Also, we need a dystopian movie made out of this stat. American Sulla and his proscriptions!
Look on YouTube and you'll see plenty. Mostly use the search term 'Douchebag cop' and you'll be good to go.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Andrew J. »

Al-Awlaki exercised a continuous combat function as a leader of a non-state belligerent organization. He was a legitimate military target. Citizenship doesn't enter into it.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Darksider »

Exactly what "combat function" did he provide? Everything I've seen suggests he was nothing more than a propagandist. Is there any confirmed evidence that he was active in a combat or leadership role?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

MKSheppard wrote:
PeZook wrote:How about America being unable to sort out what to do with prisoners of war unlawful combatants they had in custody for TEN YEARS?
Um, we keep trying to sort it out -- but it's caught up in endless legal hell with the laws passed to sort out these issues repeatedly being challenged/struck down.

At this point, it's now simply easier to just kill them and loot their corpses for ipods and USB drives than it is to keep them alive and interrogate them in Shepmo.
This is an idea.

I mean, there's a big legalistic clusterfuck with regards to prisoners in Gitmo.

But, on the other hand, nobody gives a shit if some American airstrike in Bakalakadakistan kills the shit out of random people, be it terrorizers or civilians.

So, I propose that the USA should just free the prisoners in Gitmo and release them in some middle of nowhere in Gitmo.

And them drop a JDAM on all of them.

Problem solved.

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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Thanas »

BrooklynRedLeg wrote:
hongi wrote:What legal protection is there to stop you, any of you, from being put on the list?
Nothing, which is why I'm baffled that many of the people screaming Bush was Evil Incarnate are now cheering this.
Not on this board, I hope.

If you are referring to the Democratic party, I think it is well established by now that they care more for their own power, money and prestige (which translates to: pander to the masses, use fear and rally behind Obama because no matter what happens, he is the first black president and that is supposed to be historic, damnit) than about any lip service to civil liberties. Outside of Leahy there are very few people complaining about anything with regards to civil liberties and let us not forget a majority of them voted for Bush and Obama's wars as well. Several times even.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Flagg »

I'm not cheering, but I also find myself... Ambivalent? At least in this case. I don't agree with what was done, but at the same time, bad guy got killed. I think I'd be more comfortable if there had been a trial in absencia and he'd been found guilty of crimes meriting the death penalty, but even then I don't think it stands up legally or morally.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Metahive »

Can this be called anything but vigilante justice on the presidential level? How's executing a guy just because it's some sort of popular consensus that he's a "bad guy" anything but?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Flagg »

Metahive wrote:Can this be called anything but vigilante justice on the presidential level? How's executing a guy just because it's some sort of popular consensus that he's a "bad guy" anything but?
It's not just popular consensus, he's been linked to the Fort Hood massacre.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Metahive »

Was there ever any concrete indictment for his involvement in that case? I know that he had been in contact with Nidal Hassan and praised him as a hero after the fact, but as far as I know there was no clear evidence that either he of Al-Quaeda had specifically ordered that strike.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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He was actively fighting as a combatant for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. His presence on the drone strike list was a direct consequence of that fact. As a member of an armed paramilitary force engaging in open hostilities against an American ally, he was a legitimate military target. When you come across those in an active war zone, you are free to kill them. The fact that a drone did it has no more significance than if he had been bombed by aircraft, blown apart by artillery, shot by a rifleman, or stabbed to death with a bayonet. That al-Awlaki was primarily responsible for propaganda within the group does not mean he was a noncombatant, anymore than a logistics force is noncombatant, and there is certainly evidence he had command authority within the group as witnessed by his role in the attempted printer-bombings. He was still an armed member of a paramilitary force engaged in hostilities and therefore subject to being killed on the battlefield.

There was no "blanket assassination order." The use of the term "assassination" is itself a loaded word designed to trigger strong emotions and obscure al-Awlaki's actual circumstances as an armed fighter engaging in hostilities in a war zone. He was only subject to being killed by American forces while he was operating as a hostile fighter in a war zone against American or allied forces. Had he not gone to Yemen to join up with that paramilitary belligerent force and instead gone to some country that was not in the middle of an Islamist-backed civil war, the worst he could have faced would have been extradition back to the US and a trial in the same. If he had just stayed in the US and continued spouting violent incitement on youtube he would not have faced any sanctions whatsoever. The scope of this action is thus highly circumscribed by al-Awlaki's own actions, which were to raise arms against the United States government and to engage an allied government in battle. There is no slippery slope to extend this outside of Americans openly waging war against their own government, and his death can no more be classified as an "assassination" than can the killing of Taliban militia by airstrikes.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by MKSheppard »

Aaand, it may be a three-peat!

Two US officials say the drone strike in Yemen that killed Anward al-Awlaki appears to have also killed al-Qaida’s top Saudi bomb-maker.

To remind you who this grot was...

Al Asiri was the bomb maker for the Nigerian's PETN underwear bomb, the toner cartridges on the UPS plane and the PETN bomb used to target Saudi Prince Naif.

..

Asiri is currently wanted by the Saudi government for his role in the attempted assassination of Prince Muhammad bin Nayef bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud, the Deputy Minister of the Interior. Asiri designed and assembled the bomb used by his brother, Abdullah Hassan al Asiri, in the Feb. 3, 2009 assassination attempt.

Abdullah lured the Saudi prince to a meeting by claiming he wished to surrender under an amnesty program and reconcile with the government. But instead, Abdullah detonated a bomb that was hidden in his anal cavity. The blast killed only Abdullah; Prince Saud was lightly wounded in the attack.


EDITED: to correct assumptions, we may have gotten him, unconfirmed...and added more detail on the Saudi attack.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by BrooklynRedLeg »

Thanas wrote:Not on this board, I hope.
No, just places like Democratic Underground, HuffingtonPost and a few other sites I check to get news and reactions etc on politics.
If you are referring to the Democratic party, I think it is well established by now that they care more for their own power, money and prestige (which translates to: pander to the masses, use fear and rally behind Obama because no matter what happens, he is the first black president and that is supposed to be historic, damnit) than about any lip service to civil liberties.
Pretty much....
Outside of Leahy there are very few people complaining about anything with regards to civil liberties and let us not forget a majority of them voted for Bush and Obama's wars as well. Several times even.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by MKSheppard »

The whoresWHORESwhoresWHORESwhores did al-Awlaki in!

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Now that Anwar al-Awlaki has been incinerated by Hellfire missiles fired from Predator drones hovering in the Yemeni sky, we’d like to remember the U.S.-born Islamic scholar as an ordinary guy who loved getting fellated by street hookers and enjoyed inspiring wannabe jihadists.

Before decamping overseas, al-Awlaki was twice arrested on prostitution charges while living in San Diego. Seen in the above mug shot, al-Awlaki was convicted in both late-90s cases, but avoided jail time. Instead, he was fined, placed on probation, ordered to perform community service, and directed to attend an AIDS education course.

Funeral arrangements for the 40-year-old whoremonger have not been announced.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by JPaganel »

Seems to me, the best analogy to this guy would be Tokyo Rose, Lord Haw Haw, et al. Americans jailed and eventually pardoned Iva Toguri. Brits hanged William Joyce. Both were tried and convicted of treason first, though.

Whatever happened to that, anyway? Why aren't these people tried for treason? I'm pretty sure it still carries the death penalty per the US Code.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Simon_Jester »

MarshallPurnell, could you please provide working definitions for the words "fighting" and "combatant," which I can use as a guideline in the future for War on Terror issues?


There are legal issues with trials in absentia, since the right to face your accuser is pretty fundamental to the US Constitution.

Also, by formally charging people with treason, you commit yourself to running them through the real American court system, which means you can't lock them away and try to beat names out of them. I'd bet that this is why you get so many 'terror suspects' who the government doesn't press charges against, even once they're captured. Because then they'd have to make a case in court and adhere to real standards of prisoner treatment, instead of getting to rewrite the rules on the fly in order to do whatever they think will extract the maximum amount of information from the people they capture.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

I believe trial in absentia is illegal under U.S. law, though honestly I'm not certain. I believe the issue was brought up in the thread when the President OK'ed it. Might want to try looking there for a more detailed argument regarding that particular issue.

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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Simon_Jester wrote:Also, by formally charging people with treason, you commit yourself to running them through the real American court system, which means you can't lock them away and try to beat names out of them. I'd bet that this is why you get so many 'terror suspects' who the government doesn't press charges against, even once they're captured. Because then they'd have to make a case in court and adhere to real standards of prisoner treatment, instead of getting to rewrite the rules on the fly in order to do whatever they think will extract the maximum amount of information from the people they capture.
I was kinda thinking the same. I like asking the question, though.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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MarshalPurnell wrote:He was actively fighting as a combatant for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
When and how?
His presence on the drone strike list was a direct consequence of that fact. As a member of an armed paramilitary force engaging in open hostilities against an American ally, he was a legitimate military target.
What open hostilities are there? BTW, you do realize that if you definition of "open hostilites" is "bombs being built and detonated" then nearly the entire world is a warzone.
When you come across those in an active war zone, you are free to kill them. The fact that a drone did it has no more significance than if he had been bombed by aircraft, blown apart by artillery, shot by a rifleman, or stabbed to death with a bayonet. That al-Awlaki was primarily responsible for propaganda within the group does not mean he was a noncombatant, anymore than a logistics force is noncombatant, and there is certainly evidence he had command authority within the group as witnessed by his role in the attempted printer-bombings. He was still an armed member of a paramilitary force engaged in hostilities and therefore subject to being killed on the battlefield.
Active war zone? Engaged in hostilities? Armed? A lot of assumptions here.
There was no "blanket assassination order." The use of the term "assassination" is itself a loaded word designed to trigger strong emotions and obscure al-Awlaki's actual circumstances as an armed fighter engaging in hostilities in a war zone. He was only subject to being killed by American forces while he was operating as a hostile fighter in a war zone against American or allied forces.
And since when is Yemen defined as a warzone?

Had he not gone to Yemen to join up with that paramilitary belligerent force and instead gone to some country that was not in the middle of an Islamist-backed civil war, the worst he could have faced would have been extradition back to the US and a trial in the same.
Evidence for that? He has not even been indicted. How could he have been extradited then?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by MarshalPurnell »

Thanas wrote: When and how?
He was acting as an officer of the paramilitary insurgent group Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. This is not at issue. His association with Al Qaeda was directly confirmed by al-Awlaki in various jihad propaganda and media. His role in operational planning has been the subject of considerable investigation by the US, and the evidence was sufficiently overwhelming that the UN Security Council placed him on the sanctions list of Al Qaeda operatives created under Resolution 1267. As Al Qaeda in Yemen is presently waging war against the Yemeni government, and has made efforts to strike against the US, it is clear that all members are combatants in the sense that all members of any military or paramilitary force waging war are combatants.
What open hostilities are there? BTW, you do realize that if you definition of "open hostilites" is "bombs being built and detonated" then nearly the entire world is a warzone.
Al Qaeda has been working with tribal insurgents in Yemen for years. The central government is not in control of large stretches of the desert where the tribal insurgents routinely conduct attacks on Yemeni military and police forces. "Nearly the entire world" is not even close to the level of violence and disorder that exists in Yemen. Somalia, Afghanistan, and the tribal frontier of Pakistan are pretty close, though.
Active war zone? Engaged in hostilities? Armed? A lot of assumptions here.
He was a member of a paramilitary insurgency, killed on the territory of the country the insurgency is fighting against, in a part of the world where there are more guns than people. Even if he was not, at the particular moment he was blown to pieces, armed and fighting, by virtue of his position with Al Qaeda he was a combatant. He was no more a noncombatant than logistics or signaling personnel of any army are, regardless of whether or not he used a Kalashnikov to take potshots at Yemeni soldiers. Indeed since he obviously had command authority within Al Qaeda as witnessed by his role in the attempted mail bombings, his functions were more important to Al Qaeda than any random tribal militia rifleman would have been.
And since when is Yemen defined as a warzone?
Are there active and ongoing hostilities in Yemen? There's been a state of insurgency in these areas practically as long as Yemen has existed. Al Qaeda was operating in the area as a military force. Al-Awlaki was a combatant in the Yemeni Civil War, where the United States is allied with the Yemeni government. In so far as there has been no declaration of war there have been no "warzones" since Korea in 1950, being the only post-war conflict recognized by the UN as such, but of course the US Congress has previously authorized the use of military force against Al Qaeda. In terms of domestic legality that is all the authority the President needs to deal with Al Qaeda by military force, and al-Awlaki was indisputably a member of Al Qaeda.
Evidence for that? He has not even been indicted. How could he have been extradited then?
The "strike list" is explicitly predicated on members of the list being legitimate military targets, which is how it gets around the Executive Order barring assassination as a tool of policy. Al-Awlaki got on the list by going to Yemen, joining a paramilitary force fighting against an American ally, and openly advertising his allegiance and contributions. Had he not made himself into a legitimate target he would not be on the strike list. His presence in Yemen as an enemy combatant rendered an indictment pointless as there would be no means to deliver it or to have him detained by normal police processes.

Had he not gone to Yemen and made himself a legitimate military target then he would, you know, not be in Yemen. If he had instead gone off to Germany and tried his mail bomb scheme there then he could have been indicted and arrested and would never have been on the strike list. Had he restricted himself to incitement and inflammatory youtube he would not even have been committing any crimes and thus the attention of the US government would have been absent, or certainly less lethal.

Unless you believe, as a good deal of SDN does, that the US government goes around randomly killing completely innocent people for no conceivable reason.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Okay someone correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong, but wouldn't the provisions of Title 8 of the US Code nullify his citizenship? The Fifth Amendment would provide the means by which he could have had his citizenship revoked without a trial, right?
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Pretty sure the 5th Amendmend says someone can be tried in absentia for a capital crime if done during a 'time of public danger'.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Bakustra »

No, it doesn't. It says that:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Only in the case of courts-martial in "time of War or public danger" does the accused in a "capital, or otherwise infamous crime" not have to be formally indicted by a grand jury.

The sixth amendment, however, says that:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Which specifically does not make any exemptions for trials in absentia- the accused must be "confronted with the witnesses against him" and "be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation", both of which require the accused to be present.

The closest equivalent is found in Article I, section 9:
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Which only refers to detention. The specifics of when somebody can be tried in absentia can be found as Rule 43 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, and provides these exceptions:
Rule 43 wrote:(b) When Not Required. A defendant need not be present under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Organizational Defendant.
The defendant is an organization represented by counsel who is present.
(2) Misdemeanor Offense.
The offense is punishable by fine or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both, and with the defendant's written consent, the court permits arraignment, plea, trial, and sentencing to occur in the defendant's absence.
(3) Conference or Hearing on a Legal Question.
The proceeding involves only a conference or hearing on a question of law.
(4) Sentence Correction.
The proceeding involves the correction or reduction of sentence under Rule 35 or 18 U.S.C. § 3582(c).

(c) Waiving Continued Presence.
(1) In General.
A defendant who was initially present at trial, or who had pleaded guilty or nolo contendere, waives the right to be present under the following circumstances:
(A) when the defendant is voluntarily absent after the trial has begun, regardless of whether the court informed the defendant of an obligation to remain during trial;
(B) in a noncapital case, when the defendant is voluntarily absent during sentencing; or
(C) when the court warns the defendant that it will remove the defendant from the courtroom for disruptive behavior, but the defendant persists in conduct that justifies removal from the courtroom.
(2) Waiver's Effect.
If the defendant waives the right to be present, the trial may proceed to completion, including the verdict's return and sentencing, during the defendant's absence.
(As amended Apr. 22, 1974, eff. Dec. 1, 1975; July 31, 1975, eff. Dec. 1, 1975; Mar. 9, 1987, eff. Aug. 1, 1987; Apr. 27, 1995, eff. Dec. 1, 1995; Apr. 24, 1998, eff. Dec. 1, 1998; Apr. 29, 2002, eff. Dec. 1, 2002.)
None of which apply to al-Awlaki as far as I can tell. As for revoking his citizenship, that would be difficult since Afroyim v. Rusk holds that:
(a) Congress has no express power under the Constitution to strip a person of citizenship, and no such power can be sustained as an implied attribute of sovereignty, as was recognized by Congress before the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, and a mature and well considered dictum in Osborn v. Bank of the United States, 9 Wheat. 738, 22 U. S. 827, is to the same effect. Pp. 387 U. S. 257-261.
Which has been held to strike down any of the means by which US citizenship can be forcibly stripped. He can be considered to have voluntarily relinquished it by his actions, but that would require determining whether by his actions he has voluntarily relinquished it; this is something that is difficult to define (even serving in the armed forces of a nation hostile to the United States is not held to be a relinquishing of citizenship by default) in these sorts of cases. The State Department usually does them case-by-case. While the State Department would no doubt consider this to be the case (by edict from the Secretary if nothing else), there still is the matter of the Fifth Amendment, which states that no person may be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; it does not allow the US government to engage in mass slaughter or targeted executions of people just because they lack US citizenship. So this does not resolve anything with regards to the debate.
Invited by the new age, the elegant Sailor Neptune!
I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
- The Handle, from the TVTropes Forums
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