Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people
* FAQ    * Search   * Register   * Login 
Want to support this site? Click

Quote of the Week: "A committee is a cul-de-sac down which ideas are lured and then quietly strangled." - Barnett Cocks, British political writer (1907-)


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1326 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44 ... 54  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 06:16am
Offline
Jedi Council Member
User avatar

Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Posts: 2332
Location: Pretty, pretty, pretty... pretty heavy
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
I don't know. It's hardly like the suffering and devastation plenty of other nations have endured. Other nations have been invaded or atrocified or bombed to the stone age or whatever, all the damn time. They also do embarrassing domestic shit in between getting atrocified, because everyone has embarassing domestic shits all the time.


You gotta have the requisite intellectual growth to compliment the learning opportunity that a hammer-smashed-face offers. If your country doesn't have a Bertrand Russell analogue around to disseminate vile lefty pacifist thought, then it's simply going to default onto whatever it's always had, which is mostly eye for an eye shit. If more fighting erupts in Chad or Burkina Faso, should it come as any surprise that no lessons are learned given the dearth of intellectually sound pro-pacifist thought there?

Quote:
I'm just saying that these other people's and other nations' characters are deeply shaped by getting fucked in ways that your nation can't even begin to imagine. You've never had to endure the degree of fucking other guys have had to, by the hands of others or by their own hands.


A lucky quirk of geography, really. Canada suffers the same pathology and may be, though I hope not, just entering the same awkward teenage phase of perceived invulnerability that America has held for decades based on what I gather from my psychopathic pro-Republican Prime Minister's recent deal to open a Canadian military base in Kuwait.

Quote:
The USA is #1 thing is received in the same way as the Black Knight, if the Black Knight had economic and military superiority over the rest of the fucking world and if the Monty Python skit involved that other guy shitting himself and wetting his bed at the mere sight of that Black Knight. We believed in that crap. We looked up to you!That's why we're so fucking bitter now. :P


"It was in the early days of the fighting in Vietnam that a Vietcong officer said to his American prisoner: "You were our heroes after the War. We read American books and saw American films, and a common phrase in those days was 'to be as rich and as wise as an American'. What happened?"

- William Blum

edit: fixed tags



Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 06:22am
Offline
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Posts: 19927
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
You gotta have the requisite intellectual growth to compliment the learning opportunity that a hammer-smashed-face offers. If your country doesn't have a Bertrand Russell analogue around to disseminate vile lefty pacifist thought, then it's simply going to default onto whatever it's always had, which is mostly eye for an eye shit. If more fighting erupts in Chad or Burkina Faso, should it come as any surprise that no lessons are learned given the dearth of intellectually sound pro-pacifist thought there?


Even so. Having your face mangled, and waking up everyday to see that everything is shit, will still make the person's mental outlook - or a whole nation's sociocultural mood - differ greatly from those whose nation has never ever been molested, a nation that can impose its will on others with impunity, from a people living in the prosperity brought about by these facts.

Even an uneducated face-smashed personation will know to be humble and defeated and broken and humiliated and meek and shattered and naked. The trauma in itself will ensure it. America, and Europe before it, were the teachers of the world. They taught us well.



Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 08:54am
Offline
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Posts: 19927
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
This is something I think I noticed.

All of the like-minded folks I've seen and read and such, I dunno. People from other nations who I've gotten along well with. They seem to be reasonable well educated and funny and entertaining and imaginative and creative people with intact senses of humor. And somehow we're in on the same page, those people who can appreciate this OWS thing and the outrage these folks feel at what's wrong in society.

And yet, those who seem to be on the different page, those who can't appreciate the human outrage, these universally seem to be universally dour boring unimaginative stiff uninteresting assholes.

I guess they're dour and unimaginative because they don't have the capacity feel the requisite human outrage which allows them to easily go "lol national interest", which is why all these awesome musicians people and artists and comedian end up siding with the movements. Why there's the whole perceived liberal slant in Hollywood and in musicians and such. Because to be creative, to be funny, to be all these requires the capability to feel human emotion, to emote and emphasize, with your fellow human beings. How can you be a funny guy when you can't even laugh? How can you act when you can't even feel sorrow or outrage or guilt or sadness or grief?

The guys on the other end, the opposite end, those in the halls of power sicking the hounds on people? And those assholes who cheer them on? I think they're universally dour boring unimaginative stiff uninteresting assholes because they're emotionally stunted lunatics, and you have to be an emotionally stunted lunatic to be able to exploit your fellow human beings and render them so destitute and impoverished just for your own personal advancement, and you have to be a similar kind of loco robo psycho fucker to root for these superfuckers.



Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 08:56am
Offline
Space Elf Psyker
User avatar

Joined: 2004-11-22 03:49am
Posts: 8742
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.
This thread is getting more and more retarded.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
You gotta have the requisite intellectual growth to compliment the learning opportunity that a hammer-smashed-face offers. If your country doesn't have a Bertrand Russell analogue around to disseminate vile lefty pacifist thought, then it's simply going to default onto whatever it's always had, which is mostly eye for an eye shit. If more fighting erupts in Chad or Burkina Faso, should it come as any surprise that no lessons are learned given the dearth of intellectually sound pro-pacifist thought there?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Even an uneducated face-smashed personation will know to be humble and defeated and broken and humiliated and meek and shattered and naked. The trauma in itself will ensure it. America, and Europe before it, were the teachers of the world. They taught us well.

Seriously guys, WTF?



CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 09:09am
Offline
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Posts: 19927
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
This was brought on, of course, by Connor's questions.

The point is, unlike other nations, America and Americans have never been subjected to a lot of the historical tragedies that other peoples and nations have experienced - sometimes at American hands - and this affects greatly the outlook of America and Americans. Your perception of national invincibility, your tendency to go into more than half a dozen wars in the last half of the twentieth century, all the invasions, all the horrible things done that assholes justify under "national interest". There is no denying that for more than a century, America has never known what its like to be a small insignificant nation cowering under the gaze of much greater ones, perpetually afraid of being crushed like a bug. America has never known this for a long time, because in that time, they have been the ones crushing others.



Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 09:10am
Offline
Jedi Council Member
User avatar

Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Posts: 2332
Location: Pretty, pretty, pretty... pretty heavy
Do you dispute, Zentei, that African nations have had at least as many devastating conflicts as European nations, yet one continent has a powerful intellectual pacifist tradition and the other doesn't? Why should this be controversial?



Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 09:16am
Offline
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Posts: 19927
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
This was brought on, of course, by Connor's questions.

The point is, unlike other nations, America and Americans have never been subjected to a lot of the historical tragedies that other peoples and nations have experienced - sometimes at American hands - and this affects greatly the outlook of America and Americans. Your perception of national invincibility, your tendency to go into more than half a dozen wars in the last half of the twentieth century, all the invasions, all the horrible things done that assholes justify under "national interest". There is no denying that for more than a century, America has never known what its like to be a small insignificant nation cowering under the gaze of much greater ones, perpetually afraid of being crushed like a bug. America has never known this for a long time, because in that time, they have been the ones crushing others.


Okay, the bit Zentei quoted was actually the exact opposite of what I just posted before.

The point then is that unlike America and Americans, a whole lot of other nations have been subjugated to historical tragedies unlike those nations shielded by two oceans separating them from the rest of the world, and that having had horrible things done to them by each other and by themselves, these nations' identities and outlooks and the thoughts of those living in them have been profoundly affected. It is different when you are a microscopic nation perpetually afraid of being crushed like a bug by the giants stalking the geopolitical landscape.

This is something inherent to lots of people in the third world, and even in non-third world countries like those in Europe that have experienced war and tragedy directly.



Image Image Image
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 11:20am
Offline
Sith Marauder
User avatar

Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Posts: 3562
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Lord Zentei wrote:
This thread is getting more and more retarded.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
You gotta have the requisite intellectual growth to compliment the learning opportunity that a hammer-smashed-face offers. If your country doesn't have a Bertrand Russell analogue around to disseminate vile lefty pacifist thought, then it's simply going to default onto whatever it's always had, which is mostly eye for an eye shit. If more fighting erupts in Chad or Burkina Faso, should it come as any surprise that no lessons are learned given the dearth of intellectually sound pro-pacifist thought there?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Even an uneducated face-smashed personation will know to be humble and defeated and broken and humiliated and meek and shattered and naked. The trauma in itself will ensure it. America, and Europe before it, were the teachers of the world. They taught us well.

Seriously guys, WTF?


Ah, yes, the powerful "I think what you just said is stupid, and will not explain what or why" rebuttal.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 11:20am
Offline
Sith Marauder
User avatar

Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Posts: 3562
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Lord Zentei wrote:
This thread is getting more and more retarded.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
You gotta have the requisite intellectual growth to compliment the learning opportunity that a hammer-smashed-face offers. If your country doesn't have a Bertrand Russell analogue around to disseminate vile lefty pacifist thought, then it's simply going to default onto whatever it's always had, which is mostly eye for an eye shit. If more fighting erupts in Chad or Burkina Faso, should it come as any surprise that no lessons are learned given the dearth of intellectually sound pro-pacifist thought there?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Even an uneducated face-smashed personation will know to be humble and defeated and broken and humiliated and meek and shattered and naked. The trauma in itself will ensure it. America, and Europe before it, were the teachers of the world. They taught us well.

Seriously guys, WTF?


Ah, yes, the powerful "I think what you just said is stupid, and will not explain what or why" rebuttal.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 11:45am
Offline
Stunt Driver / Babysitter

Joined: 2005-11-24 10:35am
Posts: 2098
Location: One Mile Up
Must be Saturday again - More cops than protesters at Occupy Denver around 8am. Another weekend beatdown seems probable. I circled the park a couple times to get a good look, before a cop car started following me and I got the fuck out of there. No heroics for me today - 1 more point on my license right now and I lose my job.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
Holding hands and sitting down counts as violence, you dangerous leftist liberal communist shitpiece piece of shit of peace.


That brightened my day, thank you.




"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 11:45am
Offline
Jedi Council Member
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-26 08:08am
Posts: 1909
Location: Bochum, Germany
TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Did OWS engender a PR disaster by not having sanitation facilities? Probably. But when the worst you can say about a group is "they triggered the other side's predilection for finding fault with their opponents no matter what", then it starts to look like a bit of a fool's errand to even bother.

I would just like to point out that this isn't true.

They did have sanitation facilities (porta-potties), they did have access to garbage cans (and used them), and they did have access to showers in a nearby building.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 11:50am
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2008-11-03 06:43pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ottawa
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
This is something I think I noticed.

All of the like-minded folks I've seen and read and such, I dunno. People from other nations who I've gotten along well with. They seem to be reasonable well educated and funny and entertaining and imaginative and creative people with intact senses of humor. And somehow we're in on the same page, those people who can appreciate this OWS thing and the outrage these folks feel at what's wrong in society.

And yet, those who seem to be on the different page, those who can't appreciate the human outrage, these universally seem to be universally dour boring unimaginative stiff uninteresting assholes.

I guess they're dour and unimaginative because they don't have the capacity feel the requisite human outrage which allows them to easily go "lol national interest", which is why all these awesome musicians people and artists and comedian end up siding with the movements. Why there's the whole perceived liberal slant in Hollywood and in musicians and such. Because to be creative, to be funny, to be all these requires the capability to feel human emotion, to emote and emphasize, with your fellow human beings. How can you be a funny guy when you can't even laugh? How can you act when you can't even feel sorrow or outrage or guilt or sadness or grief?

The guys on the other end, the opposite end, those in the halls of power sicking the hounds on people? And those assholes who cheer them on? I think they're universally dour boring unimaginative stiff uninteresting assholes because they're emotionally stunted lunatics, and you have to be an emotionally stunted lunatic to be able to exploit your fellow human beings and render them so destitute and impoverished just for your own personal advancement, and you have to be a similar kind of loco robo psycho fucker to root for these superfuckers.


God dammit Shroom, you gotta stop making sense like this. My entire worldview is being flipped upside down! I don't know what's real anymore!

And if you're sane, then who is going to stab all the dicks? Those dicks need to get stabbed.

Seriously though, this makes a lot of sense, and the idea that the political battle isn't so much the urban vs rural dynamic as Darth Wong frames it, or change verus tradition as it's often defined, but empathy verus the twisted pragmatism of the cynical, that makes a lot of sense to me. I think it also explains why all the politicians in the US right now seem to trend right; perhaps it's not because of the Republicans constantly shifting the debate rightward and dragging public opinion to the median by exploiting the Golden Means fallacy, as I've believed. The numbers don't quite add up for that; too many people believe progressive things even the United States for that to be the entirety of it. Maybe it's because, as all our politics became televised and tweeted and redistributed faster and more universally over the course of the 20th and 21st century, it's became more and more difficult for those empathic people to get anywhere in the strict two-party system of the United States. So all we've got are the boring, cynical fucks on both sides, and even when they argue for the tattered remains of the left they are playing an angle. Let's face it, Obama's hope and change campaign was one of those cynical fucks taking advantage of those not cynical enough to notice they were getting played.

Just over the boarder, here in Canada, those empathic, honest people have a place in politics. I vote Green because May shows up to debates with real enthusiasm and charts that indicates that she actually cares, and Jack Layton was similar. The Lib and Conservative party assholes always look pained at debates, like it's a chore to participate as they read off their hyper-sanitized, carefully prepackaged party line bullshit.

What we need in politics is people who are enthusiastic about the process itself, people who want to take part in the political system rather than take it apart for gain. We need passion.

You know, suddenly, I don't hate the Tea Party anymore. I still disagree with them, but I would take a Teabagger and an Occupy hipster yelling their philosophies over a police line, and each other, before I could stomach another debate by soulless assholes in suits.



1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.

Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 01:30pm
Offline
Storytime!
User avatar

Joined: 2003-11-26 05:31pm
Posts: 5970
Location: IA > GA
It really shouldn't surprise anyone that Shroom is intelligent and knows what's going on. To be a good satirist one needs to have a good understanding of both the subject itself AND how to lampoon it, and that's what he's been doing for years.

Though on the note of cynicism vs. idealism, I believe there is an additional, far darker shade to it: there are those on the cynic side who actively embrace it and then pat themselves on the backs for being oh so clever to do so, because only a super-genius like themselves could conceive of such a cold philosophy as "might makes right." A certain fatass hack wannabe writer that I hate has fully admitted to be in this camp, and others who believe in the retarded version of realpolitik (already described in this thread as "they believe they should betray anyone and everyone at any moment that they think they might be able to get a momentary gain"). They'd stab their best friend in the back and congratulate themselves on how smart they are (because no one ever thought of treachery before, I guess), when they aren't a fraction of how smart they think they are. Idiots who think they're calculating machines.



DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!

SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 02:03pm
Offline
Sith Marauder
User avatar

Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Posts: 3562
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
In case anyone had doubts about the utter bullshit Chewbacca cited (with no source, naturally, since his last source was Andrew Breitbart and was easily shown to be bullshit):

Police remove Occupy UC Davis camp, arrest 10
Image
UC Davis Police Lt. John Pike uses pepper spray to move Occupy UC Davis protesters who were blocking officers' attempts to remove arrested protesters from the Quad on Friday afternoon. Wayne Tilcock/Enterprise photo

Police arrested 10 protesters and pepper-sprayed perhaps a dozen more Friday while clearing the Occupation UC Davis encampment from the Quad.

The eight men and two women, all but one a student, taken away by police were arrested on suspicion of disorderly conduct, for lodging without permission, and failure to disperse. They were cited for the misdemeanors and released.

The confrontation took place after UCD held off on enforcing a camping ban overnight Thursday. On Friday morning, a Student Affairs representative delivered a letter from Chancellor Linda Katehi asking the protesters to take down their tents by 3 p.m.

The bulk of the protesters chose not to budge.

Ugliness followed.

In a second letter, sent to the campus community on Friday night, Katehi wrote that protesters “(offered) us no option but to ask the police to assist in their removal.”

“We deeply regret that many of the protestors today chose not to work with our campus staff and police to remove the encampment as requested. We are even more saddened by the events that subsequently transpired to facilitate their removal,” she added.

As the Quad emptied in a light rain, protester Eric Lee said that the administration and police were “shooting themselves in the foot.”

“What they’re doing is taking off their masks. They’re making it blatant that social equality is not something that they want,” said Lee, who graduated from UCD in June with a bachelor’s degree in political science.

“It also shows that the First Amendment is worthless. Here we are addressing government grievances — tuition has gone up 300 percent in the last decade — and this is how we get treated when we sit down and peacefully protest.”

At 3:30 p.m., about 35 officers wearing helmets and carrying batons on their hips, some with guns filled with pepper balls, crossed the quad as about 60 protesters chanted “Shame on you!”
“We’re fighting for your children’s education!” yelled one.

Shouting into the crowd noise, Lt. John Pike three times ordered them to clear out under section 409 of the California penal code. The law requires that those taking part in an unlawful assembly disperse.

By the time Pike ordered the police skirmish line forward, the crowd of onlookers had swelled to perhaps 150, many recording the slow-motion confrontation on cell phones.

Officers almost immediately drug three protesters to the ground and pinned them. Many in the ring sat down, arms locked, chanting, while supporters pulled away the tents.

Police took down more protesters, tightening plastic restraints around their wrists.

Some onlookers joined the protesters, chanting “Set them free!” They rose as a group, then, moving to surround the officers, who drew their batons.

Having at least once ordered the sidewalk cleared, so that those arrested could be dragged away, Pike later pepper-sprayed seated protesters blocking the officer’s path from point-blank range.

“Whose quad? Our quad!” the crowd chanted as the police moved off the Quad, about a half hour after they moved in.

UCD paramedics later treated with saline the eyes of 11 protesters; two were taken to Sutter Davis Hospital. Nearby, one young woman sat on her knees, crying with her eyes shut and pink streaks of Pepto-Bismol and water running down her cheeks.

Kristin Koster, a post-doctoral lecturer, used a scarf dipped in another home remedy, Maalox and water, to help Dominic Gutierrez, who was barely able to open his eyes.

He was sprayed, he said, when he tried to shield others with his jacket.

Koster said that she was “horrified” by both the actions of police and the inaction of staff and administrators standing nearby who did not seek medical assistance for those hurt until asked.
“In a way it’s very abstract to be protesting about money or debt,” Koster said. “There’s really nothing like the moment when they find out that the university — and all these smiling ladies, who are supposed to be there to protect you — will protect the university from you, with pepper spray and guns. They will injure you and injure your friends.

“When you protect the things you believe in with your body, it changes you for good. It radicalizes you for good.”

Gutierrez, a junior mechanical engineering major from Sacramento, had never been much of a protester until he saw the video of Berkeley police striking students and professors.

That and a UC proposal to increase tuition by another 8 to 16 percent each year from 2012 to 2016 pushed him to take action.

During a rally, an overnight occupation of the campus administration building and marches through campus this week, other UCD protesters echoed the Occupy Wall Street movement, railing against the financial and political power wielded by corporations and the rich.

“When they see us on the quad, a student might think that maybe there are weird people camping on the Quad,” Gutierrez said. “Once they see this, all they see is cops hitting students. They might have thought, ‘Those are people different than me, I would never (protest).’

“Now they see this is awful, and they’ll come out for the same reason I came out.”

In her letter to protesters on Friday morning, Katehi wrote that she sympathized “with the profound frustration” expressed by protesters in trying difficult economic times.

However, she continued, the administration is responsible for ensuring all “can live, learn and work in a safe, secure environment without disruption.”

“We take this responsibility seriously,” Katehi wrote. “We are accountable for what occurs on our campus. Campus policies generously support free speech, but do included limited time, place and manner regulations to protect health, safety and the ability of students, staff and faculty to accomplish the university mission.”

The chancellor wrote that while she appreciated the peaceful nature of recent protests, liability concerns and limited staffing to supervise protesters meant the encampment must come down.

“Our resources must support our core mission to educate all students,” she added.

At about 2:30 p.m., UCD Police Chief Annette Spicuzza delivered to about 60 to 70 protesters an order to take down the remaining 29 tents. Those who did not would risk losing their possessions and arrest.

In the final minutes before the deadline, a few among protesters assured the group that those arrested would have legal backing and would not lose their financial aid.

Some tents were packed up. About a dozen were pushed into a tight circle ringed by the protesters, who locked arms before police moved in.

“The camping was really a priority for us,” Spicuzza said later. “I appreciate that the tents are gone, and now we (the police) are gone.”

Spicuzza, who observed the events on the Quad, said that she was “very proud” of her officers.
“This was a tough scene to walk into,” she said. “This was 50 people and before you knew it, it probably grew close to 200. When you encircle a group of officers that are just trying to do their jobs, it’s kinda scary, but they did a great job. I don’t believe any of our officers were hurt, and I hope none of the students were injured.”

In contrast to other campuses, protests at UCD have been sometimes disruptive but largely peaceful affairs since the UC Board of Regents began approving of series of tuition hikes aimed at backfilling slashed state funding.

Friday’s confrontation led to the largest number of arrests since 53 tuition-hike protesters were arrested at a Mrak Hall sit-in, in November 2009.


The "encircling" referred to is of about 150 students, professors, press, and other onlookers who were "scaring" the police by watching them.

California Penal Code section 409 states "Every person remaining present at the place of any riot, rout, or unlawful assembly, after the same has been lawfully warned to disperse, except public officers and persons assisting them in attempting to disperse the same, is guilty of a misdemeanor."

Since it was neither a riot, rout, nor unlawful assembly, and the police ordered them to disperse in direct contravention of their first amendment rights, I have every expectation that every single person arrested will be found not guilty.

Additionally, since even if they were found guilty, the crime involved (failure to disperse) is a misdemeanor for which they could be cited and need not have been arrested at all (cf. California Penal Code section 853.6), the use of pepper spray clearly violates the 9th Circuit's finding in Headwaters Forest Defense v. Humboldt County (9th Cir. No. 98-17250, 2000) (cf. Graham v. Conner, 490 U. S. 386 (1989) for the Supreme Court case defining the objective reasonableness test for excessive force), and I have no doubt that all officers involved would be found guilty of multiple counts of use of excessive force.

UCD Police Chief Spicuzza is hilarious, though. "It was a tough scene to walk into." "I don't believe any of our officers were hurt." Yeah, good thing, it would be terrible if one of your officers sprained their thumb spraying OC into a seated, peaceful student's face.

Professors at UCD are already calling for UCD Chancellor Katehi to resign.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 02:13pm
Offline
Space Elf Psyker
User avatar

Joined: 2004-11-22 03:49am
Posts: 8742
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.
open_sketchbook wrote:
<snip>


It seemed like a lot of well-poisoning to me, frankly. "Oh, you don't agree with the OWS crowd? I guess that means you're an uninteresting, dour, soulless, unempathic asshole, LOLOLOL!". Whatever. While I understand the outrage OWS feels, the points I've seen raised by them are not always practical or smart, and more to the point, their methods aren't particularly useful IMHO. I guess that just makes me unempathic or some shit.

open_sketchbook wrote:
Just over the boarder, here in Canada, those empathic, honest people have a place in politics.

What, empathic, honest people like Ignatieff, Barbot, Duceppe and Harper?

open_sketchbook wrote:
You know, suddenly, I don't hate the Tea Party anymore. I still disagree with them, but I would take a Teabagger and an Occupy hipster yelling their philosophies over a police line, and each other, before I could stomach another debate by soulless assholes in suits.

The Tea Party promote morons like Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann and Rick Perry. I'll take either Barack Obama or Mitt Romney over any one of those dumbasses any day of the week. And if they were hijacked and you're referring to the activists only, they can't be all they're cracked up to be if these are the tools they vote for in the primaries. Meanwhile, as for the OWS, I haven't seen any politicians promoted by them yet, so who knows?



CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 02:29pm
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 2008-11-03 06:43pm
Posts: 1145
Location: Ottawa
Wow, way to completely not read my post.

First off, there are still lots of evil suit people in Canadian politics. I didn't say there wasn't. But there are passionate idealists too. The only person I can think of in American politics who has real integrity is Ron Paul, and that is because he is too old and too crazy to notice he's not going to get elected sticking to his guns (Note that I do not actually agree with said guns, but he does stick to them)

Maybe you missed the part where I said I disagreed with the Tea Party. Because I do. I think they are ignorant or in denial and I shudder to think what would happen if they got their way. But I don't think I can hate them for that anymore, because they go out there and actually engage in politics for reals, actually discussing what they want to see happen. Even if they were proposing to resurrect Hitler in the body of a dinosaur, I would take that over more men in suits with letters tacked to their names dividing the world up ever more finely behind closed doors, because they are the sort of people I want to be on the other side in politics. Because theirs is the sort of passion I want on my side, too.

What keeps soulless, corporate-owned, power-hungry politicians in power is apathy. It's what keeps stupid wars going for years, what makes people shrug when their rights are violated and their opinion ignored. The evils that can be done when people turn a blind eye are just as bad as those done by the sanction of the people. Every four years, your country steps to the polls and votes for the party they hate the least. Fuck that!

I want the political discussion to be dominated not with talking heads but by screaming protestors, not by prewritten speeches but by impassioned appeals. Even though I disagree with basically everything the Tea Party has to say, I think the way they are saying it, and the way that the Occupy movement is making their case, are the key to saving your country. Maybe if people start voting for what they want instead of against what they don't want, they'll break out of the two party way of thinking.



1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.

Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 02:44pm
Offline
Space Elf Psyker
User avatar

Joined: 2004-11-22 03:49am
Posts: 8742
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.
I did read your post, and I did understand it. And yes, there are "people with passion" in US politics, although they tend to do about as well as the Greens you vote for.

Quote:
Even if they were proposing to resurrect Hitler in the body of a dinosaur, I would take that over more men in suits with letters tacked to their names dividing the world up ever more finely behind closed doors, because they are the sort of people I want to be on the other side in politics. Because theirs is the sort of passion I want on my side, too.

And that is what makes you crazy.

I understand entirely that you don't agree with them. But to prefer passionate radicals to pragmatists in suits is just fucking nuts. And "even if they were proposing to resurrect Hitler in the body of a dinosaur...", wow, just GTFO.



CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 03:51pm
Offline
Padawan Learner
User avatar

Joined: 2011-07-25 10:07am
Posts: 193
Terralthra wrote:
In case anyone had doubts about the utter bullshit Chewbacca cited (with no source, naturally, since his last source was Andrew Breitbart and was easily shown to be bullshit):

Police remove Occupy UC Davis camp, arrest 10


A video is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-573 ... -students/



So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 05:25pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Posts: 7118
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Terralthra wrote:
Also, I should point out that on multiple occasions, the 9th, 10th, and 11th Circuits of the US Court of Appeals have held that pepper spray can not be used on the "verbally non-compliant" or "passively non-compliant".


No, they didn't rule that. What they did rule is that the use of OC or pepper spray was unreasonable in those circumstances. For example in the Headwaters Forest Defense v. Humboldt County (9th Cir. No. 98-17250, 2000) the police failed to utilize alternatives that would have accomplished the same objective. The protesters in all three protests were utilizing devices called black bears which are designed to lock protesters in place until the protester decides he/she is done. In all three protests law enforcement had access to a device called a grinder that could defeat the black bear devices but instead of even trying that they went directly to the use of OC spray. In a couple instances they had to use the grinder anyway which resulted in freeing the protesters and securing them into custody within ten minutes.

To reiterate the court never ruled the OC spray could not be used against non-violent protesters.

Quote:
Specific findings include "The chemical agent is intended for use in those cases wherein a member of the Department is attempting to subdue an attacker or a violently resisting suspect," and "The need for arrest as a government interest was insignificant since the protestors were only guilty of trespassing, a minor offense."

edit: grammar.


The first quote is from the California Highway Patrol's policy manual on the use of OC spray. It isn't a finding by the court. The second quote is in regards to the use of the OC spray to effect an arrest when the crime is only trespassing but that is just part of the court decision. The most important part is that law enforcement had access to alternatives which they didn't even try.



Milites Astrum Exterminans

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 05:34pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Posts: 7118
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Terralthra wrote:

The police have no business disrupting peaceful protests. The rights to assembly and speech are enshrined in exactly those words in the Constitution.



Pretty much every bill of rights has exceptions and court rulings behind it which addresses the no limits belief. Imagine if we took your no-limits outlook when regulating the 2nd amendment.

US court decisions have concluded that the government may regulate the time, place, and manner of expression but not the content. When doing so the government must be neutral with respect to content, narrowly drawn, serve a significant government interest, and leave open alternative channels of communication.

The same applies to Universities.



Milites Astrum Exterminans

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 05:35pm
Offline
Village Idiot
User avatar

Joined: 2007-09-16 07:53pm
Posts: 4139
Location: Canada
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
The protesters in all three protests were utilizing devices called black bears which are designed to lock protesters in place until the protester decides he/she is done.

Could you explain these devices for us? Wikipedia has nothing and my google-fu is failing me.



SDN Worlds 5: Sanctum

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 05:50pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Posts: 7118
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Terralthra wrote:
The "encircling" referred to is of about 150 students, professors, press, and other onlookers who were "scaring" the police by watching them.


If you actually read the article it says that they encircled the police in an effort to prevent them from removing arrested persons.

Quote:
Since it was neither a riot, rout, nor unlawful assembly, and the police ordered them to disperse in direct contravention of their first amendment rights, I have every expectation that every single person arrested will be found not guilty.


They were camping. Illegal camping doesn't become legal just because you're engaged in protesting. Were they preventing them from protesting? No. They just told them "You can't camp, sleep, live here". In other word they were regulating the time, place, and manner. The significant government interest is likely the prevention damage caused to parks, the spreading of disease due to park waste disposal not being designed to handle that many people for extended periods of time, and the fact the people have died in other locations.

Quote:
Additionally, since even if they were found guilty, the crime involved (failure to disperse) is a misdemeanor for which they could be cited and need not have been arrested at all


There's such a thing called arrest by citation. Just because you're arrested doesn't mean you went to jail. Usually in these situations the police give them a choice regarding jail or arrest by citation.

Quote:
(cf. California Penal Code section 853.6), the use of pepper spray clearly violates the 9th Circuit's finding in Headwaters Forest Defense v. Humboldt County (9th Cir. No. 98-17250, 2000) (cf. Graham v. Conner, 490 U. S. 386 (1989) for the Supreme Court case defining the objective reasonableness test for excessive force), and I have no doubt that all officers involved would be found guilty of multiple counts of use of excessive force.


See my reply above.



Milites Astrum Exterminans

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 05:56pm
Offline
Emperor's Hand
User avatar

Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Posts: 7118
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
The protesters in all three protests were utilizing devices called black bears which are designed to lock protesters in place until the protester decides he/she is done.

Could you explain these devices for us? Wikipedia has nothing and my google-fu is failing me.


Quote:
A “black bear” is a ten to twenty-five pound steel cylinder (about one-fourth of an inch thick) with a rod or post welded into the center.   The protesters placed their arms into the steel cylinders and attached steel bracelets worn around their wrists to the center rods or posts in the “black bears” by using mountain climbers' carabiners.   Each “black bear” linked two protesters together.   When in place, the devices completely immobilized their arms and prevented their separation.   By simply using their hands to unclip the carabiners on the inside of the cylinder, the protesters could disengage themselves from the devices.   If the protesters did not voluntarily agree to release themselves, the lock-down devices made it difficult, but not impossible, for law enforcement officers to take the protesters into custody upon arrest.   To forcibly remove “black bears,” the officers had to use a Makita grinder.   A Makita grinder is a hand-held electric grinder that can cut through steel.


Source



Milites Astrum Exterminans

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 06:06pm
Offline
Sith Devotee
User avatar

Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm
Posts: 2915
Location: Lincoln, NE
I would like to thank everyone that's sending me PMs about OWS. It really means a lot to us to have the support of our communities. :)



"Sell drugs, run guns, nail sluts, and fuck the law." -Thomas Jefferson
Image

Top
 Profile  
 Post subject: Re: The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads PostPosted: 2011-11-19 06:25pm
Offline
Sith Marauder
User avatar

Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Posts: 3562
Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Terralthra wrote:
Also, I should point out that on multiple occasions, the 9th, 10th, and 11th Circuits of the US Court of Appeals have held that pepper spray can not be used on the "verbally non-compliant" or "passively non-compliant".


No, they didn't rule that. What they did rule is that the use of OC or pepper spray was unreasonable in those circumstances. For example in the Headwaters Forest Defense v. Humboldt County (9th Cir. No. 98-17250, 2000) the police failed to utilize alternatives that would have accomplished the same objective. The protesters in all three protests were utilizing devices called black bears which are designed to lock protesters in place until the protester decides he/she is done. In all three protests law enforcement had access to a device called a grinder that could defeat the black bear devices but instead of even trying that they went directly to the use of OC spray. In a couple instances they had to use the grinder anyway which resulted in freeing the protesters and securing them into custody within ten minutes.

To reiterate the court never ruled the OC spray could not be used against non-violent protesters.


Way to address one out of three cases. Want to take a shot at the other ones? Or better yet, how about you actually provide an example of a Court of Appeals upholding the use of pepper spray directly in the face of a passively or verbally non-compliant (rather than actively resisting or violent) subject? I've provided three clear examples, from three different Circuits, all holding the same general principle: it's excessive force and unreasonable.

Instead of providing any evidence, you try to nitpick mine: so they had a device instead of linking arms directly. Your argument is that because their means of linking arms was MORE advanced than just linking arms, OC isn't ok, but when it's just people sitting with linked arms, OC directly in the face (violating guidelines for the safe use of OC spray, let's not forget) is totally appropriate? I'd love to see you argue that one in front of the 9th Circuit.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Quote:
Specific findings include "The chemical agent is intended for use in those cases wherein a member of the Department is attempting to subdue an attacker or a violently resisting suspect," and "The need for arrest as a government interest was insignificant since the protestors were only guilty of trespassing, a minor offense."

edit: grammar.


The first quote is from the California Highway Patrol's policy manual on the use of OC spray. It isn't a finding by the court. The second quote is in regards to the use of the OC spray to effect an arrest when the crime is only trespassing but that is just part of the court decision. The most important part is that law enforcement had access to alternatives which they didn't even try.


Yes, most importantly, they had the option of not arresting them, just as the UCDPD did in this case. I notice you snipped the reference to California Penal Code 856.3...Headwaters specifically notes that in addition to the Makita grinder and the use of physical force, they also had the option of negotiating and waiting them out.

Some additionally relevant quotes:
Quote:
Under our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence, "the most important single element" in the Graham analysis is "whether the suspect pose[d] an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others." Chew, 27 F.3d at 1441. Here, the protesters were nonviolent and unarmed. Most were young women, two of whom were minors; none were physically menacing. They posed no safety threat to themselves, the officers, or the public at large.

Quote:
Although the commission of a misdemeanor offense is "not to be taken lightly," it militates against finding the force used to effect an arrest reasonable where the suspect was also nonviolent and "posed no threat to the safety of the officers or others." Hammer v. Gross, 932 F.2d 842, 846 (9th Cir.1991)



Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Terralthra wrote:
The police have no business disrupting peaceful protests. The rights to assembly and speech are enshrined in exactly those words in the Constitution.


Pretty much every bill of rights has exceptions and court rulings behind it which addresses the no limits belief. Imagine if we took your no-limits outlook when regulating the 2nd amendment.

US court decisions have concluded that the government may regulate the time, place, and manner of expression but not the content. When doing so the government must be neutral with respect to content, narrowly drawn, serve a significant government interest, and leave open alternative channels of communication.


The adjective "peaceful" modifying "protests" is, despite your ignoring it, a limiting word. Additionally, I could specify that it has no business disrupting peaceful protests which do not block access to any public service or private residence (another Supreme Court limitation on protests which may be disrupted, cf. Forrester v. City of San Diego 25 F.3d 804 (1994))

Hm, let's take a look at the UC Davis Quad:
Image

Do you want to argue that 11 tents pitched in the middle of that blocked access to anything other than the space the tents were pitched on? What significant government interest was served by disrupting it? (I see you answered this below, having made three posts all replying to me. In the interest of not triple-posting, I've combined them into one, and will reply to this point when you answer it in your third post)

"Leave open alternative channels of communication," is yet another plank violated by this action, as in Headwaters, where the Court found that disrupting the protest in the manner done was a violation of the 4th Amendment as a combination of factors including that no attempt was made to negotiate:
Quote:
The Sheriff's videotape of the incident reveals that the officers never attempted to negotiate with the protesters. Once they made the decision to use the pepper spray, the officers simply warned the protesters repeatedly that if they refused to release themselves from the "black bears" the officers would apply pepper spray to their faces. The protesters tucked their heads into their chests and refused to release.

Shouting into the crowd noise, Pike three times ordered them to clear out under section 409 of the California penal code. The law requires that those taking part in an unlawful assembly disperse.

By the time Pike ordered the police skirmish line forward, the crowd of onlookers had swelled to perhaps 150, many recording the slow-motion confrontation on cell phones.

Officers almost immediately dragged three protesters to the ground and pinned them. Many in the ring sat down, arms locked, chanting, while supporters pulled away the tents.

Police took down more protesters, tightening plastic restraints around their wrists.

Some onlookers joined the protesters, chanting “Set them free!” They rose as a group, then, slowly moving to surround the officers, who drew their batons.

Having at least once ordered the sidewalk cleared, so that those arrested could be taken away, Pike then pepper-sprayed seated protesters blocking the officer’s path.


Hm, sure doesn't look like any attempt was made to negotiate!

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Terralthra wrote:
The "encircling" referred to is of about 150 students, professors, press, and other onlookers who were "scaring" the police by watching them.


If you actually read the article it says that they encircled the police in an effort to prevent them from removing arrested persons.


If by "encircle" you mean "sat on the sidewalk around them." If pepper spray and batons are the response to people sitting with linked arms, I hope the UCDPD has a couple of A-10s and Shermans to respond to the next fistfight, since escalation seems to be the only thing they know how to do. See above regarding "negotiation" and "wait them out" and "not arrest them" cf. Headwaters.

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Quote:
Since it was neither a riot, rout, nor unlawful assembly, and the police ordered them to disperse in direct contravention of their first amendment rights, I have every expectation that every single person arrested will be found not guilty.


They were camping. Illegal camping doesn't become legal just because you're engaged in protesting. Were they preventing them from protesting? No. They just told them "You can't camp, sleep, live here". In other word they were regulating the time, place, and manner. The significant government interest is likely the prevention damage caused to parks, the spreading of disease due to park waste disposal not being designed to handle that many people for extended periods of time, and the fact the people have died in other locations.


Please provide evidence that camping on the UCD quad is illegal. Please provide evidence there was disease or waste disposal problems on the UCD campus quad. I'm guessing there wasn't, and none was reported, but hey, it might exist, or have been fabricated by now. If camping anywhere other than a designated campsite is illegal, please provide evidence of OC spray and baton-fueled raids on Black Friday shoppers camped out for over a week in front of Best Buy:
Image
or the LRADs and dumpsters used to disperse and dispose of the encampment of Twilight: Breaking Dawn fans waiting for opening night:
Image

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Quote:
Additionally, since even if they were found guilty, the crime involved (failure to disperse) is a misdemeanor for which they could be cited and need not have been arrested at all


There's such a thing called arrest by citation. Just because you're arrested doesn't mean you went to jail. Usually in these situations the police give them a choice regarding jail or arrest by citation.


I'm aware of arrest by citation, that's the entire point of CA PC 853.6. The point I was making is that the UCD PD had the option of citing the protesters there (repeatedly, if necessary) until they cleared of their own accord, just as the UCD PD had the option of negotiation, waiting them out, or doing nothing at all. They chose ultimata and OC spray in the face over any of those options.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Quote:
(cf. California Penal Code section 853.6), the use of pepper spray clearly violates the 9th Circuit's finding in Headwaters Forest Defense v. Humboldt County (9th Cir. No. 98-17250, 2000) (cf. Graham v. Conner, 490 U. S. 386 (1989) for the Supreme Court case defining the objective reasonableness test for excessive force), and I have no doubt that all officers involved would be found guilty of multiple counts of use of excessive force.


See my reply above.


See my responses. My argument is well-founded in case law, and your rebuttal has largely ignored the substance of these findings in favor of apologism and nitpicks.

Top
 Profile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1326 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44 ... 54  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Broomstick, Hendrake, PKRudeBoy and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group