Saddam is purging Kirkuk at this very moment.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 04:56am

Stuart Mackey wrote: Well if you can get tickets to Christchurch, New Zealand, I know a very nice Japanese place, so theyneed only be worried about chopsticks

No, no, come to my lair, you must...

(Seriously, PM me, Stuart.)

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2003-03-17 04:57am

Darth Wong wrote:Besides, you are STILL beating on this anti-semitic strawman. If Israel had to be wiped out because it had gone insane and started nuking tens of millions of people, this would destroy a nation, not an ethnicity. Jews living in New York or California would be fine.

Probably not overly happy though

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-03-17 04:58am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Why, Marina, are you asking me on a date ?

That prospect is more frightening than 500MB of Janeway porn.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-17 04:58am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Oh - You would have been in the right, I'm not disagreeing with that. Unless, that is, you had not made the mistake of aligning yourselves with the Third Reich. That's the only thing I find offensive about Finland's behaviour in the entire conflict, and I find it offensive beyond comprehension.

Ha

Coming from Marina, this is hilarious. She's the master of shifting positions.

One moment she's a proto-fascist, and then the next, she's an anti-fascist.

Can't seem to make up her mind.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:04am

MKSheppard wrote: Ha

Coming from Marina, this is hilarious. She's the master of shifting positions.

One moment she's a proto-fascist, and then the next, she's an anti-fascist.

Can't seem to make up her mind.

If you understood what I was talking about, it would all make perfect sense. You're not capable of that.

P.S. Enlightenment, what's wrong with a little pain?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-03-17 05:05am

Enlightenment wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Why, Marina, are you asking me on a date ?
That prospect is more frightening than 500MB of Janeway porn.

I am not that offensive, well not so long as I dont get up in drag...

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-17 05:09am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Oh - You would have been in the right, I'm not disagreeing with that. Unless, that is, you had not made the mistake of aligning yourselves with the Third Reich. That's the only thing I find offensive about Finland's behaviour in the entire conflict, and I find it offensive beyond comprehension.

Well, what should we have done, pray tell? Bend over and take it in the ass or just lie down and be annihilated? We did not so much align with the Third Reich as they aligned with us because our interests in reclaiming our country happened to coincide with Hitler's interest in invading Russia. That our war of defense happened to serve Hitler's interests is not our fault, but Stalin's as he started it in the first place. We took help where we could get it, because we needed al the help we could get. We didn't exactly have a lot of choice.

It's part of that stuff that you always pontificate about at great length, namely realpolitik and geopolitics. After all the stuff you've advocated, you don't have a leg to stand on trying to lecture me about morality, much less the morality of Finland's actions taken to ensure its very existence as a state and a people. We did not take part in Hitler's atrocities, nor did we commit atrocities ourselves. You don't have a case, but then again, it never stopped you before.

Edi

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-17 05:12am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If you understood what I was talking about, it would all make perfect sense. You're not capable of that.

Capable of what? Your positions keep changing all over the
fucking map.

One moment you're on your knees sucking Pinochet's cock,
and then the next, you're railing against the Finns for allying
with a fascist run country to regain lost territory.

You should be applauding the Finns for their deal with the devil.

You argue at length on the need for a lack of morality in geopolitiks,
and realpolitiks, and then when the Finns do EXACTLY as you preach,
you turn on them.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:13am

Edi wrote: Well, what should we have done, pray tell? Bend over and take it in the ass or just lie down and be annihilated? We did not so much align with the Third Reich as they aligned with us because our interests in reclaiming our country happened to coincide with Hitler's interest in invading Russia. That our war of defense happened to serve Hitler's interests is not our fault, but Stalin's as he started it in the first place. We took help where we could get it, because we needed al the help we could get. We didn't exactly have a lot of choice.

It's part of that stuff that you always pontificate about at great length, namely realpolitik and geopolitics. After all the stuff you've advocated, you don't have a leg to stand on trying to lecture me about morality, much less the morality of Finland's actions taken to ensure its very existence as a state and a people. We did not take part in Hitler's atrocities, nor did we commit atrocities ourselves. You don't have a case, but then again, it never stopped you before.

Edi

Elegance. Pure elegance. Thank you - I don't think we need to continue this affair.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2003-03-17 05:18am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:To be honest, yes, I do, Edi. Your nation was allied to Nazi Germany in WWII and in being a Nazi ally, helped perpetuate the horrors of that regime. It deserved in the very least to be occupied and reconstructed, and since the Soviets were the only ones who could get the job done, I wish they'd done it. I think your nation would be a better place - Wiser to the cost of freedom - had it endured a few decades of Soviet occupation, instead of what it is today, the one Nazi satellite that escaped retribution.

If I can just make a comment here.
That is insane.
I can't be 100% sure that it is the most insane thing I have ever heard but I'm quite sure that it is right up there.

Marina, I am ever thankful that you are not in a position of power and I hope like hell you never will be.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:20am

Spyder wrote:
If I can just make a comment here.
That is insane.
I can't be 100% sure that it is the most insane thing I have ever heard but I'm quite sure that it is right up there.

Marina, I am ever thankful that you are not in a position of power and I hope like hell you never will be.

Observe that Edi took the opposite of his normal position - that it was acceptable for his country to ally with the most evil regime in the world's history - to save his nation's identity and form of government, when I argued the opposite of my normal position. Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-17 05:22am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?

You're living proof of that, duchess

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-03-17 05:31am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Observe that Edi took the opposite of his normal position - that it was acceptable for his country to ally with the most evil regime in the world's history - to save his nation's identity and form of government, when I argued the opposite of my normal position. Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?

I don't see it like that. From Finland POV, the Russians were at least as bad as the german. They invaded, killed and raped countless fins without provocation by a madman known as Estaline, who was at least as bad as Hitler.

Also, Finland never made a formal pact with Germany. It was only a conjugation of mutual interests. They wanted the Soviets out, and they took advantage of a situation.

Also, your friends of the A-Bomb are fucked up. I have many german friends, and whatever happened to germany half a century ago is completely over. What they suggest would have brought enormous pain and no advantages. Except for a very vindictive, criminal mindset.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-17 05:31am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Spyder wrote:
If I can just make a comment here.
That is insane.
I can't be 100% sure that it is the most insane thing I have ever heard but I'm quite sure that it is right up there.

Marina, I am ever thankful that you are not in a position of power and I hope like hell you never will be.
Observe that Edi took the opposite of his normal position - that it was acceptable for his country to ally with the most evil regime in the world's history - to save his nation's identity and form of government, when I argued the opposite of my normal position. Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?

It was acceptable to take their help when they offered it, and that help was in the form of ammunition, weapons and equipment. There was never an alliance, something you apparently missed. You also missed that we were fighting a justified war of defense against a regime just as evil as Hitler's, and that we did our fighting all on our own. The situation is hardly what you paint it out to be. You try to portray Finland as being complicit in Nazi crimes against the Jews and the Soviet civilians they persecuted and murdered, when that is a complete distortion of what happened. Yes, in the Continuation War there was a period when Finnish forces were fighting to conquer land, but they were driven back, and we would not have had a legitimate claim to that land even had we been able to take it.

You're just playing games here, ebcause our previous debates have centered on whether it is acceptable to go to a war of aggression over geopolitical interests in the practice of realpolitik. Our war with the Soviet Union was defensive on our part, against their aggression, so I fail to see how my integrity is compromised. Especially since Finland did not take part in (nor did it condone) Hitler's atrocities as the wording of your posts insinuates.

Edi

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-17 05:33am

MKSheppard wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?
You're living proof of that, duchess

You should talk...

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:35am

You see:

Hypocrisy is an inherent part of human nature which will never change and always be with us - and thus, it is an inherent part of everything humanity creates in terms of social organizations.

However, it is a part of us which can be repressed, though never destroyed, and hardly needs constantly rule our lives. It is simply a fact of human existance that exists alongside many others. The debate over if and when it should be repressed is a philosophical one.

This debate happened to turn into a rather elegant chance to demonstrate inherent hypocrisy in action, so I used it for that purpose.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-17 05:46am

Duchess you continue to amaze and suprise me. Congradulations not a lot of people hold that distinction. But seriously, what is your childhood trauma? These 'highly intelligent and rational' friends of yours sounding nothing more to me than morons. The reason that retaliation wasn't taken against Germany after WWII was to stop history repeating its self.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-17 05:48am

Crown wrote:But seriously, what is your childhood trauma?

Let us not speak of that, out of respect for the Duchess, OK?

She suffered a lot, and we don't need that dredged up in this debate.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2003-03-17 05:49am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Observe that Edi took the opposite of his normal position - that it was acceptable for his country to ally with the most evil regime in the world's history - to save his nation's identity and form of government, when I argued the opposite of my normal position. Humans are very hypocritical creatures, aren't they?

Marina, like it or not countries are full of individuals. I know you believe that morality has no place in warfare but even with that belief withstanding retribution is a product of emotion, not logic. The war is over, it has been over for quite some time. The winners have been decided, the prizes have all been handed out. Everyone has gone home. The only thing attacking Finland would have done is generate more horror stories. There would have been no strategic advantage, it would have been an emotional act, not a rational one. An act that would have been bad for all parties.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-03-17 05:49am

MKSheppard wrote:
Crown wrote:But seriously, what is your childhood trauma?
Let us not speak of that, out of respect for the Duchess, OK?

She suffered a lot, and we don't need that dredged up in this debate.

I have absolutely no idea as to what you refer Shep. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-03-17 05:51am

Crown wrote: I have absolutely no idea as to what you refer Shep. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Precisely. You are to STFU and never talk, OR insinuate something of
that matter again.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:52am

MKSheppard wrote:
Crown wrote:But seriously, what is your childhood trauma?
Let us not speak of that, out of respect for the Duchess, OK?

She suffered a lot, and we don't need that dredged up in this debate.

Thank you, Mark. The one thing I'll always begrudge you is a sense of honour, fitting of your chosen class.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 05:54am

Spyder wrote: Marina, like it or not countries are full of individuals. I know you believe that morality has no place in warfare but even with that belief withstanding retribution is a product of emotion, not logic. The war is over, it has been over for quite some time. The winners have been decided, the prizes have all been handed out. Everyone has gone home. The only thing attacking Finland would have done is generate more horror stories. There would have been no strategic advantage, it would have been an emotional act, not a rational one. An act that would have been bad for all parties.

Ultimately it was indeed the triumph of Reason that showed our better side in the end after WWII. But that isn't to say that the perpetrators of such acts did not deserve far more. So, yes, I don't really disagree with the outcome in the end.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2003-03-17 06:03am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Ultimately it was indeed the triumph of Reason that showed our better side in the end after WWII. But that isn't to say that the perpetrators of such acts did not deserve far more. So, yes, I don't really disagree with the outcome in the end.

Last outstanding point:
Is moral reprehensiveness supposed to be possible in warfare?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-17 06:07am

Spyder wrote: Last outstanding point:
Is moral reprehensiveness supposed to be possible in warfare?

Moral reprehensiveness in warfare is excessiveness. I don't think it excessive to punish countries for atrocious crimes, though in Finland's case it really is a conspiratorial sort of guilt that is probably absolved with time and success. When the last SS man dies, perhaps, it will be over and done with.