Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to reform

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Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to reform

Post by Thanas »

Here are a few articles about the current state of that nation, explaining why the state and country is utterly corrupt and heading for a downward spiral.


Article 1
Greek Privatization Plan Faces Massive Domestic Resistance

Greece is scrimping and saving, but still failing to get its debt crisis under control. The government plans to raise 50 billion euros through a privatization program, but faces massive resistance from Greeks worried about selling off the nation's assets. Experts also doubt whether the strategy will work.



Good news still sometimes emerges in Greece these days. Take Hellenic Petroleum (Helpe), which owns a number of refineries and some 1,200 gas stations in the country and made a net profit of €150 million last year. It earned €43 million in the first quarter of 2011 despite of the crisis. Helpe is "an example of efficiency and stable management," company chairman Anastasios Giannitsis said. "We're constantly trying to increase productivity."

The model company, barricaded behind mirrored windows in its futuristic Athens headquarters, is among the few economic pearls of the crisis-ridden country. But paradoxically, Hellenic Petroleum is also a prominent example of the Greek disease -- excessive generosity to the few, at the expense of the many.

It is a worker's paradise. The company's 2,500 employees receive the equivalent of 17.8 monthly salary payments in a year, 3.4 of which count as "productivity bonuses." The average yearly salary is between €65,000 and €70,000, according to official figures. Drivers and doormen make an impressive €90,000, a fact that left one of Helpe's top managers "a bit surprised" when he took his own post at the company, he said. Meanwhile chairman Giannitsis said the high wages are justifiable because of "very specific business and the major dependency on international price and profit margins" in the oil industry. Besides, personnel costs account for "less than three percent" of turnover, he said.


Hope and madness are close together in Prime Minister Georgios Papandreou's battle against his country's crisis -- and his room to maneuver is dwindling. Despite drastic savings programs and structural reforms in public services, and despite tough tax increases and pension cuts, public revenue is shrinking. In late March, Greece's public debt increased to some €354 billion, and the budget deficit is currently at 9.5 percent of GDP, above the government's target of 7.5 percent.

Now the government wants to stave off bankruptcy with an ambitious privatization program aimed at raising some €50 billion by 2015.

Resistance from Workers

But public resistance to the measures has been tremendous, and isn't just confined to the daily demonstrations. GENOP, the union of workers for energy provider DEI, is among the most radical opponents of the sell-off plan, and is threatening to switch off the nation's electricity supply. Some 51 percent of the company belongs to the state, which plans to sell 17 percent. With profits of €950 million for 2010, the company is viewed as a lucrative prospect for investors. But the union's 20,000 members have much to lose. Their average yearly earnings of €40,000 are high when compared to other professions -- a high school teacher makes just €20,000 per year, for example. DEI workers also get discounts of around 70 percent on their energy costs, with some even getting their electricity for free.

"We're not fighting for our privileges," union leader Nikos Fotopoulos says in his office, where posters of Che Guevara, Marx, Trotsky and Rosa Luxemburg decorate the walls. "We want to protect the poor customers," he adds, saying the privatization is tied to a "gigantic increase in prices."

But the union profits handsomely from the company. Since 1999, it has received about €31.3 million in direct and indirect financial aid from the firm, according to a 100-page report released in late April by the general inspector of public administration, Leandros Rakintzis. The government corruption hunter found that about €20 million went directly to the union, while the rest went to their organization for "social purposes," the OKDE, where it was spent on travel for union members, for example. In the last three years alone the energy provider has also given the union €115,000 just for demonstrations against its own shareholders, the government and the austerity measures.

But the powerful labor leader can chalk up at least one victory so far -- DEI is the last company on the government's privatization list, and isn't scheduled to be put up for sale until the final quarter of 2012.

Unrealistic Expectations?

Meanwhile, Hellenic Petroleum isn't on the list at all, a surprise considering it is 35.5 percent state-owned and should be a desirable investment. "We don't fear privatization," said Giannitsis, adding that the government profits handsomely from Helpe.


Athens' plans for privatization spark a number of questions, including whether they are realistic or not. The sales of state holdings such as utility companies, ports, the postal service and even international airports would bring in €15 billion or less, according to favorable estimates. And in the current crisis, who would want to invest in a stake in the state lottery, the horse track or the gaming company Opap?

The majority of the total package is said to come from state-owned real estate, with an estimated total worth of €272 billion. But just which homes, market squares, military facilities, or tiny islands would actually be sold to private investors remains uncertain.

The Greek government doesn't even know exactly what it owns, according to a study by Athens political research group, the Andreas Papandreou Institute of Strategic and Development Studies (ISTAME). "Numerous institutions and private people" make unauthorized use of government-owned property and don't pay for it, the study said. Of the some 71,000 properties, including 538 islands, only 100 at best could be "realized," the study says. There's no mention of outright sales.


The grounds of the old Athens airport, valued at €6 billion, serve as an example of just how hard selling state land can be. Years of negotiations with investors from Qatar have been bogged down by bureaucracy and protests by residents. Meanwhile the state-of-the-art sports arenas built there for the 2004 Olympic games are decaying. The Olympic white water facility for canoes and kayaks, assigned to a Greek consortium for the next 30 years, has dried up and lies baking and flaking in the sun. There's no water park or aquarium, and consequently no revenue.

The nearby 5,000-seat beach volleyball stadium with a sea view was rented to an Athens car dealer who had planned to pay about €10 million per year for the privilege. But so far he's failed to come up with a marketing concept due to crisis-related concerns -- there is no money.

The baseball arena went to second division football team Ethnikos Piraeus, which faces relegation due to financial problems. The softball facilities and hockey stadium are considered unsellable. The only real money coming in is from the former Taekwondo hall, which makes about €15,000 each day for hosting events, trade fairs, parties and concerts. But how many event halls does a city like Athens need?

Exactly how privatization proceeds will add up to €50 billion remains a mystery to many experts. But perhaps the journey is the destination. As a popular Athens taunt goes: "We sell fairy tales in order to buy time."

90.000 yearly salary for a driver?


Larger article.

A Fatally Flawed Recovery Plan
Greece Back on the Brink


By Manfred Ertel, Christian Reiermann and Anne Seith

Greece needs even more money -- EU officials estimate that a new bailout will cost over 100 billion euros rather than the previously assumed 60 billion. It will get the aid, even though the rescue strategy adopted so far seems doomed. The economy is shrinking, and ambitious privatization plans are illusory.

The crisis in Greece does have its upsides, at least for tourists. The Acropolis, a UNESCO World Heritage site above the rooftops of Athens, recently extended its opening hours. It now closes at 7 p.m. Before, it often closed shortly after lunchtime. "It was unacceptable for our foreign visitors," says Transport Minister Dimitrios Reppas.

In the midst of the crisis, the number of museum guards, at the Acropolis, for example, has magically increased, as have the numbers of ambulance drivers and nurses. "People are enthusiastic," says Reppas, adding: "A real consolidation is underway here."

Officials from the European Union, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the European Central Bank (ECB), who have a different definition of consolidation, are unlikely to be quite as enthusiastic. They approved €110 billion ($159 billion) in financial aid for Greece about a year ago, imposing tough requirements on the country in return.

Since then, Prime Minister Georgios Papandreou has tried to drastically reduce Greece's €330 billion in debts through radical austerity measures, downsizing and structural reforms. At the same time, the government is seeking to increase revenues by 8.5 percent and reduce its deficit to 7.5 percent of GDP this year.

So much for the theory. A visit to the Acropolis offers an example of what is really happening. There are more museum guards here now, a consequence of the Greek interpretation of consolidation.


Consolidation, Greek Style

Here's how it works: OSE, the national railroad, was expected to eliminate its annual deficit of €1-2 billion by slashing about 1,800 of its 5,800 jobs. But, as in other government-owned businesses, the employees were not let go but transferred to new jobs instead -- albeit with reduced pay.
:banghead:
Greece's partners in the euro zone are gradually losing patience with Prime Minister Papandreou and his team. A year after receiving €110 billion in international financial aid commitments, Greece has hopelessly failed to reach the agreed austerity goals. Its lenders are now questioning the government's ability to reform, the economy has declined even further than feared, and important tax revenues have failed to materialize.

The only certainty is that Greece needs more money than it was provided with last year. The goals stipulated in the bailout package can only be reached under highly unrealistic assumptions, the envoys of the EU, IMF and ECB concluded after analyzing the situation in Greece in recent weeks.

The so-called troika has remained reserved in its official statements, even saying, in a statement issued on Friday, that Greece has made "significant progress." It now appears that the payout of next loan tranche from the current aid package, which was long in question, will now go ahead. However, the team of investigators presented less uplifting news to a group of senior government officials from the euro zone countries at a meeting in Vienna's Hofburg Palace last Wednesday. The necessary measures would require extreme sacrifices from the Greek public, they said, but in light of the mood in Athens, such steps are hardly realistic anymore. In short, the troika team concluded, Greece needs a new program that will give it more time and more money to solve its problems.

The top officials from the European finance ministries seemed unimpressed, and the man from the ECB even felt vindicated. Only the German representative, Finance Ministry State Secretary Jörg Asmussen, raised an objection. At the strict behest of his minister, he called for the involvement of private lenders in the costs of rehabilitating Greece. According to other participants at the meeting, Asmussen said Germany could only agree to a new program if private sector investors assumed a substantial share of the burden.

The man from Berlin bluntly presented his counterparts with the alternative: Without the participation of the private sector, there would be no approval from the German parliament. Without that, there would be no new bailout, which in turn could lead to Greece defaulting on its debt. The meeting ended at 3 a.m. without reaching any conclusions.

When German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, a member of the center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU), gave Asmussen strict instructions not to agree to a new solution in Vienna without the participation of private lenders, it was not just out of respect for the German parliament's say in the matter. Schäuble is also loath to present the bill to the reluctant German lawmakers.

New Greek Bailout Costlier Than Expected

That's because the new program costs a lot more money that previously assumed. Experts at the German Finance Ministry and within the troika believe that if Greece is still dependent on foreign assistance in 2013 and 2014, it could end up costing more than 100 billion euros -- compared to the previous estimate of €60 billion. The reason for the sharp cost increase is that additional Greek government bonds, for which follow-up financing will be needed, are set to mature in the second half of both 2013 and 2014.

The necessary funds should not solely come from government coffers, Schäuble recently told a group of advisors. The finance minister senses that he can only trim the aid to a tolerable level if the private lenders agree to waive a portion of their claims. Schäuble's is scheduled to meet his European counterparts again on June 20, but no one doubts that the Greeks will receive additional funds in the end.

Whether it makes sense to lend the Greeks more money that they may never be able to repay is a question the politicians prefer not to address. That's because the alternatives and their consequences -- a drastic debt restructuring and possibly even a return to the drachma -- seem even more horrific.

Nevertheless, there are growing doubts over whether Greece can be rehabilitated through austerity measures alone, and whether the drastic treatment being prescribed will truly cure the patient or make its condition even worse.

The Greek public, at any rate, is becoming increasingly furious with its government and the creditors in Brussels and Washington. Public demonstrations against the austerity measures are held every evening. Lawmakers in Athens have been spat at, and protesters have hurled stones at politicians on the island of Corfu. Many hold the Germans, in particular, responsible for their plight.


Experts are also critical. The draconian EU and IMF requirements are like a "new Treaty of Versailles," says Athens-based economist Yanis Varoufakis. "In the end, they harm both the strong and the weak."

Like many of his colleagues, Varoufakis is convinced that if Greece is ever to become economically independent again, the economy will have to be rebuilt and stimulated with a targeted investment program.

Part 2: 'We Are Back Where We Started'

The outcome of the efforts to date, at any rate, has been sobering, despite everything the Papandreou government has done. It has trimmed the salaries of government workers, increased taxes considerably, raised the retirement age and publicly denounced tax evaders. Nevertheless, the country is still on the brink of disaster. There is a growing sense that it was all for nothing, says Dimitrios Daskalopoulos of the SEV employers' association, "and that we are back where we started."

Daskalopoulos doesn't believe that the government did everything it could. In fact, he says, it failed in its most pressing task: reforming the massive government bureaucracy.

His attack is directed against labor leaders like Nikos Fotopoulos, 48. He is a union leader with the partially state-owned electric utility DEI, a former Trotskyist and, for the last 33 years, a member of Papandreou's PASOK Party. "We aren't eating with silver spoons here," Fotopoulous, an electrician by trade, says defiantly. His office is decorated with posters of Che Guevara, Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky.

Since 1999, his union has received close to €31.3 million in direct and indirect financial subsidies from its employer. In a particularly absurd twist, the utility has paid the union €115,000 in the last three years for demonstrations -- against its own shareholders, and against the government and its austerity measures.

Companies like DEI or the partially state-owned Hellenic Petroleum are still viewed as workers' paradises. The roughly 2,500 employees of the oil company are paid 17.8 monthly salaries a year, and even drivers and doormen earn annual salaries upwards of €90,000. Chairman Tassos Giannitsis nonchalantly attributes the high salary levels to his company's "highly specific business and substantial dependence on international price and profit margins." Besides, he adds, personnel costs make up less than three percent of revenues.

Many Greeks are angry about the special treatment of government employees. While labor representatives like Fotopoulos staunchly defend the many benefits enjoyed by workers in government-owned businesses, the draconian austerity measures have plunged the rest of the population into an economic crisis that has brought hardship to many people.

Social Upheaval

More than 200,000 jobs were lost last year. All of a sudden, middle-class citizens are waiting in line outside Athens soup kitchens. People are moving out of the sprawling capital to places where the cost of living is cheaper, or to work as farmers on land owned by their families.

More and more Greeks are also tapping into their savings, either because they need the money or to move a few euros to a safer place, just in case the drachma is reintroduced. Deposits in private bank accounts have already declined by €31 billion since the beginning of 2010.

Recently, the European Commissioner for Maritime Affairs & Fisheries, Maria Damanaki, became the first official representative of her country to mention the the possibility of a withdrawal from the euro. But Prime Minister Papandreou remains rigorously opposed to a return to the drachma. He is banking on additional money from the euro zone partners, more austerity measures and a privatization program that seems fairly unrealistic.

For example, Papandreou hopes to raise €50 billion by 2015 through the sale of more than 30 fully and partially government-owned businesses. The privatization list includes water companies, the ports of Piraeus and Thessaloniki, the Athens racecourse, the Postbank, a casino and the OPAP lottery company. The government is also seeking an investor for the chronically money-losing government railroad, while Papandreou hopes to raise large sums of cash with the sale of a wide range of government-owned real estate.

Since the planned sell-off of government assets was announced, the public's mood has shifted once and for all. In their headlines, the daily newspapers have called it the "looting of a people," a "recipe for impoverishment" and "blood and soil for the fifth loan tranche."

Doubts About Privatization

Even economists who have been deeply critical of Greece's generous welfare system are outraged at the proposed sale of public assets. "You can't just sell everything so quickly," says former Finance Minister Stefanos Manos, noting that such privatization programs must be carefully prepared and the investments tied to conditions, in some cases.

Economist Jens Bastian, who has lived in Athens for the last 14 years, doubts whether the Greek bureaucracy can even handle such a massive sell-off. The country's government agencies are not only considered to be vastly overstaffed, but Kafkaesque in their bureaucratic complexity.

Because there is no comprehensive property registration system, the Greek government has no idea how much land, buildings or yacht harbors it even owns, concluded a study by the Institute of Strategic and Development Studies (ISTAME) in Athens. The institute, which has close ties to the government, values the state's assets at about €270 billion, but is quick to point out that this figure is only an initial estimate.

Nevertheless, in February the Greek government optimistically promised its international overseers to provide an initial list of available real estate by the end of June. Soon afterwards, it was scrambling to find consultants to conduct a large-scale inventory.

In early March, the finance ministry official in charge of privatization issued a job advert that was hardly more than a page long. Given the time constraints, his requirements were not particularly stringent. He wrote that "relevant" knowledge of real estate was necessary, and that experience in the Greek market was considered desirable. Interested parties were to respond to the notice within 10 days, providing all the information "they consider appropriate."

The team of consultants now has until the end of 2012 to compile a complete database, but according to one member of the team, most of the details are still unclear.

The problems the government is likely to face in its privatization program can already be envisaged. Because detailed land records are often missing, landowners are regularly involved in disputes over property lines. At times, plaintiffs file claims derived from ancient property rights.

Trade Unions May Thwart Sell-Offs


Just how difficult it is to turn government properties into cash recently became apparent on the grounds of the old Hellenikon Airport in Athens, which is on the coast near Piraeus and is valued at about €6 billion. Investors from Qatar have been trying to secure the rights to use the land for years. Now all of their efforts appear to have failed in the face of opposition from citizens' groups and adjacent communities which would prefer to see the site turned into a park instead of a commercial complex.

A number of state-of-the-art arenas, built at great expense for the 2004 Summer Olympics, occupy a portion of the giant waterfront property. Now the facilities are fast turning into ruins.

Meanwhile, the unions organized within the government-owned companies are getting ready to deter potential investors. Union leader Fotopoulos says he would consider shutting off the nation's power supply if the government goes ahead with its plan to privatize the electricity company. "We want to protect our poor customers," he argues outlandishly.

Panagiotis Koutras, the top labor representative at the OTE telephone company, is planning a number of strikes for June and is also indicating that there will be other reactions meant to "surprise" people.

German telecommunications giant Deutsche Telekom owns 30 percent of the company. Now the Greek government is exercising an option that forces the German company to acquire more shares of OTE. But for Deutsche Telekom the investment, once praised as an asset in the southeast European market, has been nothing but trouble. The OTE share price has fallen by more than half since the Germans made their initial investment.

The experiences of foreign investors aren't exactly a selling point to attract investment in Greece. Intractable union leaders aren't thre only culprits. The notoriously cash-strapped government, for example, has an extremely poor reputation when it comes to payment. It still owes German companies several hundred million euros. Last year, state-owned hospitals offered to pay their debts to pharmaceutical companies with Greek government bonds.

Prime Minister Papandreou says Greece has neglected to develop a modern economic structure over the last 30 years. Now it is expected to catch up quickly, but reforms take time.

Economist Varoufakis ran a simulation to see what would happen if the country had to continue along its current austerity course. He concluded that even if Greece fulfilled all requirements and privatization goals, and the recession came to an end, the country's mountain of debt would continue to grow. It would be more than double the national income by 2020, which means that a default would be practically "guaranteed."

That outcome, he noted, was based on optimistic assumptions.
A pretty bleak picture. Corruption from the top all the way down to the union leaders as well as general ineptness, non-modernization etc.

It makes one wonder if Europe should just let Greece crash and burn. However, I very much doubt that this will result in a net benefit and will have only bad consequences for the greeks themselves.

Greece is also apparently unable to fix the problems themselves, considering that the Government has been completely unwilling to tackle the main problems.

Thus, it seems to me as if Greece needs a new Treuhand coupled with an investment program or at least some sort of strong outside influence to pressure its Government to finally act. Shenanigans like "firing" people the "Greek way" is not going to do much to endear Greece to the populaces of European states.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Falarica »

I'm left speechless...

Doesn't the media in Greece pick up on this at all? Looking from the outside there seems to be no party or group saying that this is just insane and has to stop.

This also seems to leave the German (and all EU) government in a catch-22:
  • Do they offer Greece more money (with/without strict conditions).
  • Or walk away and let them default and deal with it themselves.
Neither option is ideal, otherwise it would already be being implemented.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

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You have to remember that Der Spiegel is following it's own agenda, here. I don't want to get to much into this topic (I have not participated in the threads on the matter and intend not to), but I would like to ask you and all other people here to NOT asume everything you read is the truth. Even - no, especially - when it seems to confirm a preexisting notion.

But to answer your question: the greek people are much better informed about the situation than you think. Take a guess why they started mass protests. ;) But this is limited to reality and does not include the bullshit Der Spiegel propagates.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Guardsman Bass »

That's not just Der Spiegel. You can find similar reports in other papers.

Short of simply being bailed out (and going back to the pre-crisis situation), Greece is probably just fucked at this point. Maybe Germany can ease a default so that it happens gradually, instead of simply imploding all at once.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Thanas »

Skgoa wrote:You have to remember that Der Spiegel is following it's own agenda, here. I don't want to get to much into this topic (I have not participated in the threads on the matter and intend not to), but I would like to ask you and all other people here to NOT asume everything you read is the truth. Even - no, especially - when it seems to confirm a preexisting notion.
That is a pretty strong charge you are making here, especially since Spiegel has the best record when it comes to factual information. Feel free to point out what is wrong, though.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

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Those articles don't even mention that Greece hardly keeps any kind of valid census records and keeps on paying pensions for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dead people and their relatives simply pick up the checks. If someone dies, the state relies on the relatives to report it before anything happens on that front and even if they do report it, it's uncertain if such reports reach the money fountain to turn the tap off. There are thousands of 100-year olds who are supposedly still alive and enjoying their pensions and that's bullshit on any level you care to name.

They are hardly even attempting to reform and are only now starting to institute measures that would curb any of this.

The place is corrupt through and through and the German approach is the only sensible one. If they don't start shaping the hell up, fuck them.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Narkis »

Skgoa wrote:You have to remember that Der Spiegel is following it's own agenda, here. I don't want to get to much into this topic (I have not participated in the threads on the matter and intend not to), but I would like to ask you and all other people here to NOT asume everything you read is the truth. Even - no, especially - when it seems to confirm a preexisting notion.

But to answer your question: the greek people are much better informed about the situation than you think. Take a guess why they started mass protests. ;) But this is limited to reality and does not include the bullshit Der Spiegel propagates.
Oh? I haven't found any glaring problems with the articles. Nothing in there strikes me as inaccurate. If anything, they leave many of the problems unmentioned.

Edi, if we start naming every single issue with Greece we'll go through pages like they're peanuts. Like the fact that the vast majority of public sector employees "work" for less than 6 hours a day. Or that they get (or used to) insane bonuses, like "a bonus for arriving on time", or the even more insane "bonus for not getting a bonus". Or that you won't find a surgeon in a public hospital that will agree to perform a surgery without a massive bribe. Or that the farmers multiplied the land they owned in the reports to the EU so that they could get bigger subsidies. In fact, if just the farmers of Crete actually owned the land they reported, then the whole area between Crete and Athens should've been arable. And that's only one, admittedly big, island!

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Crown »

Thanas wrote:90.000 yearly salary for a driver?
I'm honestly not sure why you would chose to not only highlight that part (of all things) in the article, and then further comment upon it - other than saying it's surprising (which it is). So if a private company is turning over €150 million profit and chooses to share it's wealth with its workers/employees this is a stick to beat them with? Because I'm just utterly flabbergasted if that's what you are doing. See below for EDIT
Falarica wrote:I'm left speechless...

Doesn't the media in Greece pick up on this at all? Looking from the outside there seems to be no party or group saying that this is just insane and has to stop.
Of course it does, exposés on corruption in all levels of Government in Greece by journalists has been done more than once, but the point is nothing changes. The previous Government that went to town on the loans was elected on a platform of transparency and putting an end to corruption/nepotism. El - Oh - El to how hat worked out eh?



EDIT :: My mistake, on first pass I read the company as being privately owned, not 35% government owned.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Thanas »

Crown wrote:
Thanas wrote:90.000 yearly salary for a driver?
I'm honestly not sure why you would chose to not only highlight that part (of all things) in the article, and then further comment upon it - other than saying it's surprising (which it is). So if a private company is turning over €150 million profit and chooses to share it's wealth with its workers/employees this is a stick to beat them with? Because I'm just utterly flabbergasted if that's what you are doing. See below for EDIT
I assume by your edit that you have abandoned that line of argument?
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Crown »

Thanas wrote:
Crown wrote:
Thanas wrote:90.000 yearly salary for a driver?
I'm honestly not sure why you would chose to not only highlight that part (of all things) in the article, and then further comment upon it - other than saying it's surprising (which it is). So if a private company is turning over €150 million profit and chooses to share it's wealth with its workers/employees this is a stick to beat them with? Because I'm just utterly flabbergasted if that's what you are doing. See below for EDIT
I assume by your edit that you have abandoned that line of argument?
Yes, left the post intact to show clear evidence of the correction.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Thanas »

Thanks.

For the record, I wouldn't have any problems with it if it would be a private company. After all, private companies can pay whatever salaries they can afford.

But a state company with what is essentially a state-guaranteed monopoly in time of such a crisis paying wages for drivers which would be salaries for engineers in Germany? That I cannot really understand, and given the way the workers do not seem to be cut down, but rather reshuffled.....
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Narkis »

Crown wrote:Of course it does, exposés on corruption in all levels of Government in Greece by journalists has been done more than once, but the point is nothing changes. The previous Government that went to town on the loans was elected on a platform of transparency and putting an end to corruption/nepotism. El - Oh - El to how hat worked out eh?
Yeah, exposés are so common that nobody bats an eyelash when yet another case of corruption is revealed. And every party in every election that I can remember has promised to put an end to corruption when it comes into power. Hint: They never do.

The government doesn't fire the workers because they can't. It's illegal to fire a public sector employee. This law has existed for decades, it's really hard to be changed, and it's not certain that there'll be a long-term improvement from its repeal. Back in the ol' days, before this law, it was customary for a party that came into power to fire every single employee who belonged to the "other party" and replace them with their own cronies.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Thanas »

So what's to be done?

This is not a trick question, I really am at a loss on how this mess can be resolved in any way that does not utterly crush Greek society.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by aerius »

I don't think there's anything that can be done at this point that doesn't cause serious suffering for the next few years at the minimum, it's just too late and things are too far gone already. Maybe 20-30 years ago or something like that we could've put in some sort of reform program that would gradually fix things up without causing too much pain. It's like cancer, if you catch it early the treatment isn't too bad but if you wait till it spreads the treatment program will really suck and there's a good chance you'll die anyway.

Within the EU rules there's nothing that can be done. If we throw everything out the window and go "hipotetical, RAR!" there's probably some solutions to be found, but they'll shit over sovereignty & everything else so hard that it wouldn't be funny. Something along the lines of total debt forgiveness and installing a competent government to run their country for them until they get things straightened out. Somehow I don't think that'll fly.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Stark »

Thanas wrote:So what's to be done?

This is not a trick question, I really am at a loss on how this mess can be resolved in any way that does not utterly crush Greek society.

At this point, that may be unavoidable. However undesirable, it's likely the only way to see political change is to let the results catch up to them. There would arguably be far more support for widespread reform after the country has collapsed, and even then you're still going to hit nationalist idiots who will say 'can't things just go on as they were when other people paid for everything' until they're blue in the face.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Dave »

Thanas wrote:paying wages for drivers which would be salaries for engineers in Germany?
They don't pay engineers in the US that much -- at least not starting out.

90k EUR comes to ~130k USD -- and a six-figure salary is considered impressive in any discussion I've been a part of.

For comparison, my school has listed average reported starting salaries for its BS graduates. They range from 50 to 60 thousand dollars per year for engineering students* (likely gross, not including benefits.)

However, I've heard it said that the basic college degrees in Germany are equivalent to a Masters degree in America. Even then, the salary ranges I'm seeing reported for Masters degrees go from 55k to ~75k.

*This does not include BS Petroleum engineers, who report starting salaries around 83k.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by K. A. Pital »

I find it remarkable that the KKE does better and better in the elections in the recent years, considering the economic crisis worsening in Greece. I also admire the KKE for rejecting the bullshit "Wall of Greece" plan and exposing it for what it is. If the EU and the current bunch of idiots ruling Greece make Greek communists more popular with their every ill-devised step, so be it.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Thanas wrote:
90.000 yearly salary for a driver?
I seem to recall that to be a commercial driver in Greece you need a permit, of which only a limited number exist which costs about 250,000 Euros. So such drivers demand and get huge salaries while the entire economy is strangled by stupidly high transportation costs. Not sure if that permit applies to these people, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Thanas »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Thanas wrote:
90.000 yearly salary for a driver?
I seem to recall that to be a commercial driver in Greece you need a permit, of which only a limited number exist which costs about 250,000 Euros. So such drivers demand and get huge salaries while the entire economy is strangled by stupidly high transportation costs. Not sure if that permit applies to these people, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I am like you not sure that a driver who essentially works for a company is a commercial driver...maybe a Greek can shed some light on that issue?



Stas Bush wrote:I find it remarkable that the KKE does better and better in the elections in the recent years, considering the economic crisis worsening in Greece. I also admire the KKE for rejecting the bullshit "Wall of Greece" plan and exposing it for what it is. If the EU and the current bunch of idiots ruling Greece make Greek communists more popular with their every ill-devised step, so be it.
Instead of going all "RARGH. COMMUNISM" on us, maybe you could tell what productive and realistic steps you would be proposing?
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by kaeneth »

Thanas wrote:So what's to be done?

This is not a trick question, I really am at a loss on how this mess can be resolved in any way that does not utterly crush Greek society.
Honestly, I'm surprised Germany was willing to loan them the money originally. The only viable option I see is kicking them out of the EU for their extensive deception and corruption. Let their currency be devalued as they default on loans and/or print money. Unfortunately, that is politically suicidal and likely to send Greece into a short-term economic depression. The people of Greece do not deserve that 'solution' but its the only thing that appears even remotely viable other than 'Give Greece money for the next decade and pray'.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Narkis »

Thanas wrote:So what's to be done?

This is not a trick question, I really am at a loss on how this mess can be resolved in any way that does not utterly crush Greek society.
A fundamental shift in Greek mentality is required. The recent protests may be indicative of such a shift occurring, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Barring that, the entire ruling class must be replaced with people who care about the country much more than they care about themselves, or their prospects of reelection.

Yeah, I don't think that's realistic either.
Sea Skimmer wrote:I seem to recall that to be a commercial driver in Greece you need a permit, of which only a limited number exist which costs about 250,000 Euros. So such drivers demand and get huge salaries while the entire economy is strangled by stupidly high transportation costs. Not sure if that permit applies to these people, but it wouldn't surprise me.
They should be a part of the driver's guild, and require this permit. I'm not sure though. I'll ask someone who knows and get back to you.
Stas Bush wrote:I find it remarkable that the KKE does better and better in the elections in the recent years, considering the economic crisis worsening in Greece. I also admire the KKE for rejecting the bullshit "Wall of Greece" plan and exposing it for what it is. If the EU and the current bunch of idiots ruling Greece make Greek communists more popular with their every ill-devised step, so be it.
But that's only because of the anger directed at the big parties. Every smaller party has benefited from this, and most of all the far right LAOS. KKE is getting points for being the only credible left party at the moment, and for being against this madness from the beginning, but it has many things going against it. It hasn't presented any realistic solutions for the issues, content only to criticise. It's unwilling to cooperate with any other party, no matter how close ideologically they are. And it's still paying for the civil war. The people who lived through the atrocities of that war are never going to vote for it, and they can influence their children and grandchildren.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I've been following this story for a couple of years now and if I'm reading it right they are plain fucked, maybe not right this moment, but within 36 months or so. Could somebody elaborate on the likely fallout for the rest of Europe from Greece collapsing financially?
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Chirios »

cosmicalstorm wrote:I've been following this story for a couple of years now and if I'm reading it right they are plain fucked, maybe not right this moment, but within 36 months or so. Could somebody elaborate on the likely fallout for the rest of Europe from Greece collapsing financially?
Pretty bad. If Greece goes the ripple effects could cause Spain and Ireland to fall, which would severely impact the other, more robust, economies. That's why Germany/France were willing to give those loans to Greece.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by J »

cosmicalstorm wrote:Could somebody elaborate on the likely fallout for the rest of Europe from Greece collapsing financially?
That depends on who holds the various derivatives which are based on Greek bonds, interest rates, and other financial stuff along with what those derivatives are and how much of it is out there. I don't think anyone really knows how many CDSs, interest rate swaps and other hinky structured finance instruments are out in the wild; the Bank for International Settlements tries to keep track of this stuff but so much of it is done "under the table" so it's impossible to get a good number until after the balloon goes up.
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Re: Greece: widespread corruption and unwillingness to refor

Post by Surlethe »

It makes one wonder if Europe should just let Greece crash and burn. However, I very much doubt that this will result in a net benefit and will have only bad consequences for the greeks themselves.
No, if Europe lets Greece crash and burn, Greece will go off the euro in order to cushion their landing. Then the exchange markets will run on the euro and fuck over the entire common currency zone. The only way to let Greece crash and burn is to be able to force it to stay on the euro while that happens. Is the assumption of that sort of central authority over individual states' sovereignty in the cards?
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