UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Agent Sorchus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1143
Joined: 2008-08-16 09:01pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Agent Sorchus »

Prannon honestly ask yourself what is the difference between a Koran and a Flag? To burn one is a specific challenge to a specific authority. The other has nothing so targeted to protest.
the engines cannae take any more cap'n
warp 9 to shroomland ~Dalton
User avatar
Zadius
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2005-07-18 10:09pm
Location: Quad-Cities, Iowa, USA

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Zadius »

Alyeska wrote:If you know your neighbor is batshit crazy and that calling him a loon will cause him to eat his fingers, then you call him a loon to his face, just how innocent are you?
The problem I see with that analogy is the it has the side effect of removing or reducing the guilt of the Afghans who committed the murders. It's like the insanity defense. I don't think the people who committed the murders were that insane. I believe they are rational enough to be held responsible for their actions, which means they aren't as crazy as your analogy implies. The same goes for any analogy that compares these Afghans to animals, like "don't poke a rabid dog with a stick." All the arguments that implicate Jones in the guilt seem to involve dehumanizing or infantilizing the actual killers, which I reject. That's why I agree with the people who compare it to the abusive husband logic (a.k.a. "Look what you made me do!").
Image
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

There is a notion in the US legal system that while provoking someone doesn't make you directly guilty for their actions you are responsible if you say or do things that can be reasonably (as in, "expect to do so", not "this is a rational action") be expected to result in violence. For example, there are penalties for inciting a riot.

While the Florida pastor is NOT responsible for the murders in Afghanistan he did engage in actions that can be expected to provoke certain people. This was not done inadvertently, but rather done deliberately to provoke. This distinguishes it from the issue of wearing veils - women in the West do not go about bare-faced in order to provoke Muslims, they do so because it is their custom. It is not custom to routinely burn holy books of any faith, that is done to deliberately provoke outrage. There was malice behind the action. It was intended to provoke violence.

That in no way diminishes murder - the Afghans could have peaceably demonstrated their outrage (as indeed, many Muslims apparently did). They are responsible for the murders, not the Florida pastor.

Personally, I wouldn't let either off the hook in this matter, though I think the Afghans committed the much greater crime.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by mr friendly guy »

Hey guys, if I walk down a street and spread false rumours that my neighbour is a paedophile and under the social pressures he decided to kill himself, its not my fault. :roll: I didn't ask him to kill himself. Sure I might be guilty of slander, but you know he did the deed.

If a homophobe starts taunting a gay person and finally they kill themselves, its not the homophobe's fault. Sure they might be guilty of bigotry, but the gay person did the deed.

If a doctor fails to treat a patient's disease properly, its not the doctor's fault for being negligent, its the disease that killed them. Yes sirree.

The Islamists get the fault for killing those people. Jones however is not innocent and some of the blame should be attributable to him by virtue of deliberately going out to provoke the fanatics. I have no problems giving the Islamists almost all the blame, however I find it distasteful that Jones gets a free pass with some people in regards to the outcome.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Samuel »

Those cases are different. For starters, the first two involve actively interfering with other people lives, something burning a Koran in Florida doesn't do.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

With today's media an event on one side of the world most certainly CAN have a direct effect on the opposite side of the planet.

It was reasonable to assume that if you burned a Koran in North America people in Muslim nations would get upset. Sorry, the pastor still carries some guilt here, even if not as much as the actual killers. He did it to piss people off.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Zadius
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2005-07-18 10:09pm
Location: Quad-Cities, Iowa, USA

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Zadius »

mr friendly guy wrote:Hey guys, if I walk down a street and spread false rumours that my neighbour is a paedophile and under the social pressures he decided to kill himself, its not my fault. :roll: I didn't ask him to kill himself. Sure I might be guilty of slander, but you know he did the deed.

If a homophobe starts taunting a gay person and finally they kill themselves, its not the homophobe's fault. Sure they might be guilty of bigotry, but the gay person did the deed.

If a doctor fails to treat a patient's disease properly, its not the doctor's fault for being negligent, its the disease that killed them. Yes sirree.
Oh, come on. I empathize with the people in your examples because they are being victimized. How were the Afghans who murdered the UN workers at all victimized by a book burning in Florida? How were they bullied? Your examples paint a picture of loneliness and isolation, which is strongly contrasted by the image of a violent mob rioting and murdering people. How do you empathize with them at all? They are the ones intolerant of anyone who doesn't like their favorite book. They feel victimized, but that doesn't make it so.
Image
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by mr friendly guy »

Zadius wrote:
Oh, come on. I empathize with the people in your examples because they are being victimized.
Since you miss the point I will explain in small words. The examples are to illustrate the link between action A and response B. What the response is, is irrelevant. You just shown you can see that in my examples the actions of me, the homophobe do cause the response, because you stated you can emphathize with the victims. So why can you not see the link between Pastor Jones and the actions of the Islamists?
How were the Afghans who murdered the UN workers at all victimized by a book burning in Florida? How were they bullied?
Irrelevant to my point, which isn't to show they were victimised per se, but that actions clearly lead to some response. This just again show cases the double standards. If someone kills themselves because of bullshit words said against them( eg bullying, slander) , we will most probably look at the person saying those words in a negative light. If the person decides to kill other people, we rightly blame him for doing the deed, but why are we suddenly silent about the original person who said those words.
Your examples paint a picture of loneliness and isolation, which is strongly contrasted by the image of a violent mob rioting and murdering people.

Again irrelevant to my point.
How do you empathize with them at all?
I don't. However that doesn't mean I can't see the link between Pastor Jones and stirring the hornet's nest.
They are the ones intolerant of anyone who doesn't like their favorite book. They feel victimized, but that doesn't make it so.
No shit. Which is why I mock religious fanatics in other threads. However even I who is anti theist can see the link between Pastor Jone's actions (which is designed to stir up some response from Islamic fanatics), and the subsequent actions of the Islamist, why can't you?

Once again the Islamists gets almost all the blame. However Jones isn't innocent, and we should see him for what he is.

Edit - and if you want to find a victim, its those people beheaded because Islamist got so fucking offended over that crap, and because some idiot decided to stir shit up even though he was told this might happen, but he did it anyway.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Zadius
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2005-07-18 10:09pm
Location: Quad-Cities, Iowa, USA

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Zadius »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Zadius wrote:Oh, come on. I empathize with the people in your examples because they are being victimized.
Since you miss the point I will explain in small words. The examples are to illustrate the link between action A and response B. What the response is, is irrelevant. You just shown you can see that in my examples the actions of me, the homophobe do cause the response, because you stated you can emphathize with the victims. So why can you not see the link between Pastor Jones and the actions of the Islamists?
I wasn't aware anyone was arguing that the Koran burning and the riots were just a random coincidence. I'm not arguing that there is no connection, I'm arguing that there is no blame. People commit crimes for all sorts of incomprehensible reasons all the time.
mr friendly guy wrote:
How were the Afghans who murdered the UN workers at all victimized by a book burning in Florida? How were they bullied?
Irrelevant to my point, which isn't to show they were victimised per se, but that actions clearly lead to some response. This just again show cases the double standards. If someone kills themselves because of bullshit words said against them( eg bullying, slander) , we will most probably look at the person saying those words in a negative light. If the person decides to kill other people, we rightly blame him for doing the deed, but why are we suddenly silent about the original person who said those words.
Every time there is a school shooting, it sparks an important conversation about the need to prevent bullying. I don't see people always falling silent in those cases. But the bullying is wrong even if the victim doesn't react. It is wrong in itself because of the psychological harm it causes. It causes psychological harm because it impinges on the human need for social acceptance. It's not wrong just because it might cause a violent reaction. If that was the case, then it would be more wrong to criticize religions which have violent fanatics than it is to criticize religions that have none.

What basic human need are the rioters being deprived of as a result of the Koran burning? The need to feel self-righteous? :roll: It matters because otherwise all victims are responsible for what happens to them, except when it was completely and utterly random.
mr friendly guy wrote:
They are the ones intolerant of anyone who doesn't like their favorite book. They feel victimized, but that doesn't make it so.
No shit. Which is why I mock religious fanatics in other threads. However even I who is anti theist can see the link between Pastor Jone's actions (which is designed to stir up some response from Islamic fanatics), and the subsequent actions of the Islamist, why can't you?

Once again the Islamists gets almost all the blame. However Jones isn't innocent, and we should see him for what he is.
He's a total bigot who hates Muslims. But they aren't rioting because he's a bigot, they are rioting because he hurt a copy of their precious book.
Image
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by MKSheppard »

mr friendly guy wrote:Hey guys, if I walk down a street and spread false rumours that my neighbour is a paedophile and under the social pressures he decided to kill himself, its not my fault. :roll: I didn't ask him to kill himself. Sure I might be guilty of slander, but you know he did the deed.

If a homophobe starts taunting a gay person and finally they kill themselves, its not the homophobe's fault. Sure they might be guilty of bigotry, but the gay person did the deed.

If a doctor fails to treat a patient's disease properly, its not the doctor's fault for being negligent, its the disease that killed them. Yes sirree.
So burning a book somehow is equal to those above examples?

BTW, the book BBQ took place like two weeks ago.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Eulogy
Jedi Knight
Posts: 959
Joined: 2007-04-28 10:23pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Eulogy »

MKSheppard wrote:BTW, the book BBQ took place like two weeks ago.
You say that as though that inconvieint truth matters to fundies.
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Big Phil »

Allow me to point out the stupidity of this line of thinking.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Fuck this Martin Luther King Jr. and his creepy cult church of like 20 people. Seriously. He has been a media whore by profession for years, sending his cretins to wear "Equal Rights for Negroes" shirts and bullshit freedom marches obviously for pure provocation. There's probably going to be another protest against him but the media needs to stop feeding the troll, seriously. Their hunger for controversy is the quintessential ingredient in his actions causing us to lynch black people.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

The differece between MLK, Jr. and Asshat Pastor is that MLK, Jr. knew full well that his actions would have consequences, up to and possibly including death for some, and that he and his followers were willing to suffer the consequences of their actions personally. Asshat is protected from the people he provokes by an ocean and a lot of land. HE is not the one at risk of beheading here. Asshat is quite willing to put other people at risk for his ideas, himself not so much.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by mr friendly guy »

Zadius wrote: I wasn't aware anyone was arguing that the Koran burning and the riots were just a random coincidence. I'm not arguing that there is no connection, I'm arguing that there is no blame. People commit crimes for all sorts of incomprehensible reasons all the time.
You are correct in the sense that not all connections must automatically lead to blame. However you seem to argue that if the connection is indirect enough, there is no blame. I want to know how far indirect. Because you previously stated you see a patient who died from doctor negligence as a victim. The doctor (Pastors Sapp and Jones) didn't kill his patient (UN aid workers), the disease (Islamist) killed them. The doctor (Pastors Sapp and Jones) didn't have malice to the patient (UN aid workers). At least the doctor has the excuse that his (medical) knowledge might not be enough. Given that Jones was supposedly warned by the President that this shit could happens, whats his excuse? Yet doctors can be guilty of negligence, and in that sense "blamed" for what happened.

I don't see why these guys don't have some responsibility. Its much much smaller than the Islamists, but its > zero.
Zadius wrote: Every time there is a school shooting, it sparks an important conversation about the need to prevent bullying. I don't see people always falling silent in those cases. But the bullying is wrong even if the victim doesn't react. It is wrong in itself because of the psychological harm it causes. It causes psychological harm because it impinges on the human need for social acceptance.
Since an action (bullying) is wrong because of its consequences (psychological harm etc) why isn't the Pastor's actions wrong because of its consequences, given you have stated that there is a connection? One would argue its less direct, and as such I will say outright he holds less responsibility than the bullying example above, especially given that it could be reasonably forseen, since he was warned about it.
Zadius wrote:It's not wrong just because it might cause a violent reaction. If that was the case, then it would be more wrong to criticize religions which have violent fanatics than it is to criticize religions that have none.
I have no problems with criticising religion, even though I don't see burning a Koran as a better way than say, Richard Dawkins creating a documentary or dissecting their bullshit and showing their stupidity for what they are. However things are a bit more complicated than the black white world you have there.

As our emperor once said (and I paraphrase), "if a Islamist put a gun to my head, I would be praising Allah at the drop of a hat." Likewise if someone did the same thing to loved ones, I hope people have the sense to do so (until such time as they can reverse the situation). Since several countries have troops and aid workers there in Afghanistan, why are we making an already difficult job even harder by giving Islamist more propaganda ammunition? Sure they would have killed lots of people for bullshit reasons, but this time the bullshit reason they used can arguably be attributable to these two geniuses.

What great sacrifice must they make not to burn a Koran? Is this like women being asked to not wear their usual clothes because its too "revealing"? Hardly since burning books isn't his usual custom. Is it like the Danish cartoonist who isn't supposed to draw satirical cartoons? Again hardly since political satire is a daily part of our free media, while book burning isn't the usual custom.

But we know the reason why he can do it without fear. He doesn't have to face the consequences. Its those UN aid workers who get to deal with the Islamists wrath.
What basic human need are the rioters being deprived of as a result of the Koran burning? The need to feel self-righteous? :roll:
Since I don't see the Islamists as victims, I am not sure what you are trying to get at. I do see those UN workers as victims though.
Zadius wrote: He's a total bigot who hates Muslims. But they aren't rioting because he's a bigot, they are rioting because he hurt a copy of their precious book.
Lets not forget he was supposedly warned that people would riot because of what he planned to do, and he still did it.

Lets play a total hypothetical here. This is just to test the logic that in this situation the Islamists get 100% blame and those pastors get zero.

Lets use a trope from sci fi / fantasy where a third party instigates a conflict between two other factions for the purpose of weaking them by having their citizens, infrastructure destroyed etc. They instigate it through trickery, so its actions doesn't harm anyone DIRECTLY, but indirectly it clearly does. Does the third party get any blame (no matter how small) for the consequences, or do the two warring factions get 100% blame divided among themselves?

Because you see, the Pastor's actions didn't directly harm anyone either, but clearly as you admit there is a link between the book burnings and Islamist going ape shit and killing people.

Let me guess. You are going to say the pastor's motivation wasn't to have UN workers killed off per se (even though they were warned that this could happen) so it doesn't count. Am I right?
MKSheppard wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:Hey guys, if I walk down a street and spread false rumours that my neighbour is a paedophile and under the social pressures he decided to kill himself, its not my fault. :roll: I didn't ask him to kill himself. Sure I might be guilty of slander, but you know he did the deed.

If a homophobe starts taunting a gay person and finally they kill themselves, its not the homophobe's fault. Sure they might be guilty of bigotry, but the gay person did the deed.

If a doctor fails to treat a patient's disease properly, its not the doctor's fault for being negligent, its the disease that killed them. Yes sirree.
So burning a book somehow is equal to those above examples?
Shep Answer - You are right. In those hypotheticals only one person died. In this case 20 reportedly died. They aren't equal.

Serious answer - the examples do show that just because an action doesn't directly cause (much) harm, indirectly it can do greater harm and it doesn't abrogate the link or the responsibility. Book burning doesn't directly harm anyone. Arguably the doctor being negligent doesn't directly harm anyone (say he doesn't do anything, unlike say MJ's doctor who gave him shit loads of propofol). However both those situation did lead to problems indirectly. If the doctor can be blamed (morally and legally) why can't the pastors (morally if not legally).
Broomstick wrote:The differece between MLK, Jr. and Asshat Pastor is that MLK, Jr. knew full well that his actions would have consequences, up to and possibly including death for some, and that he and his followers were willing to suffer the consequences of their actions personally. Asshat is protected from the people he provokes by an ocean and a lot of land. HE is not the one at risk of beheading here. Asshat is quite willing to put other people at risk for his ideas, himself not so much.
And we have a winner. The point isn't so much that he is blamed more than the Islamists for the killings. But just because he has a right to something doesn't mean his actions don't have consequences (with resultant responsibility for these consequences), and he is easily protected from these consequences because he lives far away. Too bad for those people who had to deal with those consequences.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Eulogy
Jedi Knight
Posts: 959
Joined: 2007-04-28 10:23pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Eulogy »

Do you think that the families of the UN workers will be able to sue Assclown Pastor? He did put the spark on the powder keg, after all.
"A word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you've had no success with real women." Darth Wong to Bubble Boy
"I see you do not understand objectivity," said Tom Carder, a fundie fucknut to Darth Wong
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by MKSheppard »

The US Supreme court has ruled that burning a totemic item that has special sway over religious fundamentalists is fine and is a protected right under the first amendment.

So why should we bend our knee and limit our rights just because there are people out there who explode at the drop of the hat?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Big Phil
BANNED
Posts: 4555
Joined: 2004-10-15 02:18pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Big Phil »

Broomstick wrote:The differece between MLK, Jr. and Asshat Pastor is that MLK, Jr. knew full well that his actions would have consequences, up to and possibly including death for some, and that he and his followers were willing to suffer the consequences of their actions personally. Asshat is protected from the people he provokes by an ocean and a lot of land. HE is not the one at risk of beheading here. Asshat is quite willing to put other people at risk for his ideas, himself not so much.

Thank you, Broomstick, for making my point for me. You assumed that I made those changes with the focus on MLK, when the focus was on the logic that someone must be to blame for antagonizing a bully majority. In fact, the only person to blame is the bully (or the racist, the murder, etc.) who uses the excuse that the other guy made him do it; in this case, the Muslims who decided that murdering innocent people was the appropriate response to some asshole burning a Koran.
In Brazil they say that Pele was the best, but Garrincha was better
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

You are missing the point that one's actions have consequences. While it is not right for the bully to commit violence or murder that doesn't mean doing things that increase your chances of becoming a victim are not without their own consequences.

MLK was running those risks in order to change things for the better. The pastors in this more recent event were merely trying to stir up trouble, not improve things.

You can't go about calling a group of people evil and destroying things they care about then act all shocked when they get upset, as if the resulting violence was somehow unpredictable. It wasn't.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by MKSheppard »

Broomstick wrote:You can't go about calling a group of people evil and destroying things they care about then act all shocked when they get upset, as if the resulting violence was somehow unpredictable. It wasn't.
You mean like flag burning or showing up at people's funerals ala the WBC? According to the Supremes, that's a constitutionally protected right, as it should be.

Why should we be limited in our constitutional rights just because a bunch of ignorant people half a world away get upset over us exercising our freedoms?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

We aren't limited in our rights - you have the right to say what you want, and (within the limits of the law) do what you want. You are not, however, insulated from the consequences of your actions.

The other point, of course, is that the authority of US law, constitution, and supreme court stop at the US border - those people half a world a way are not subject to our law or customs.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
SilverWingedSeraph
Jedi Knight
Posts: 965
Joined: 2007-02-15 11:56am
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Contact:

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

So what is your point, Broomstick? That nobody should do anything to offend Muslims because they'll kill people over it? I mean, this guy is an asshole, but would you say I was to blame if I said, for example "Islam is not a religion of peace, it, like Christianity, is a religion of hatred and evil", and some Muslims took offense and started a riot, would you give me this kind of shit? It doesn't take much for Radical Muslims to get upset and murder people. Does that mean anyone who does anything to offend them is partially to blame when they riot and murder?
  /l、
゙(゚、 。 7
 l、゙ ~ヽ
 じしf_, )ノ
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by MKSheppard »

Broomstick wrote:We aren't limited in our rights - you have the right to say what you want, and (within the limits of the law) do what you want. You are not, however, insulated from the consequences of your actions.
Again, why should Jones be held responsible for this? All he did was exercise his constitutional right to burn an object that is a totemic symbol as much as the US flag is.

Why should our freedoms be limited because of the possibility that someone somewhere halfway around the world sees the BBQ and explodes in an orgy of rioting?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by MKSheppard »

By the way, an update on the dead:
  • Five guards from Nepal
  • Civilian staff from Norway, Sweden and Romania.
  • Four local residents were also killed.
Norway's U.N. mission said on its Twitter page that Norwegian Lieutenant Colonel Siri Skare, 53, was among those killed in Mazar-i-Sharif.

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt also posted a Twitter message that said a young Swedish man had been killed.

Le Roy said a Romanian was also among the dead.


I'm sure those Nepali had everything to do with the events.

Essentially, the crowd went looking for Americans to attack, and when they couldn't find any, they decided to attack the UN compound.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

SilverWingedSeraph wrote:So what is your point, Broomstick? That nobody should do anything to offend Muslims because they'll kill people over it? I mean, this guy is an asshole, but would you say I was to blame if I said, for example "Islam is not a religion of peace, it, like Christianity, is a religion of hatred and evil", and some Muslims took offense and started a riot, would you give me this kind of shit? It doesn't take much for Radical Muslims to get upset and murder people. Does that mean anyone who does anything to offend them is partially to blame when they riot and murder?
Of course not, don't distort my position into a caricature.

You do, however, need to be aware that some people are easily offended and they use it as an excuse to commit violence and murder. That shouldn't stop you from living your life, but you need to be aware that those people do exist and if you do something to offend them there will be consequences.

Now, if they said "we find bare-faced women offensive and if all your women don't cover up by next Tuesday we'll kill this family we found lost in the hills above our village" then that's a completely unreasonable (and probably impossible to fulfill) request as it requires overturning long-standing customs and norms. On the other hand, NOT burning a book is a pretty minor thing. In fact, books of any sort are rarely burned in our society, and indeed some people find burning ANY book to be objectionable even if such an act may be legal. The fact is, the pastor deliberately performed an act unusual in his own culture, of questionable merit within his own culture, with the express purposes of offending a shitload of people. Given what we know of those people, it was reasonable to guess some would react with potentially deadly violence. In other words, he went out of his way to trigger a reaction in radical Muslims. It really is like poking a vicious dog with a stick. Why are we surprised when the dog bites? The pastor was poking that dog until the dog reacted.

Yes, the people who committed murder are responsible for their actions. But it's fucking stupid to pretend that Asshat Pastor had nothing to do with this incident.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

Post by Broomstick »

MKSheppard wrote:Essentially, the crowd went looking for Americans to attack, and when they couldn't find any, they decided to attack the UN compound.
I'm quite sure any form of foreigner would have worked to satisfy their bloodlust.

Which does show they are barbaric, but it also underscores that deliberate provocation of these types is quite hazardous.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply