Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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Re: Chasing convictions

Post by Big Phil »

Hamstray wrote:
LaCroix wrote: What happens to the woman and children? According to your 100% tax statement, they only keep their personal stuff, like clothes.
The family has no income, no place to live, no nothing. Hopefully 'Mom' is very attractive, or they are going to be in big problems...
80000€ inheritance per capita evenly distributed is sufficient money to get along with and also get you through university.
What, in your opinion, is the purpose of taxation?

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of seizing all property and assets in excess of 80000€ upon a person's death?
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by LaCroix »

There are more repercussions due to such a tax than people would think.

People would try to circumvent such a tax by gifting stuff to their heirs or selling it at a low price to them. The state would have to check all these transactions to prevent such cases. Gifting would come under the same tax - as inheritance and gifting are usually seen as the same thing. The state also would need to determine legal market values for goods to determine if they were sold under value. This would lead to a completely regulated market, with de facto price regulation. (If the lowest price you can sell something is regulated, thats the price all competitors will have to charge or be more expensive than competitors.) So you won't be able to introduce a product without first having the state assigning your product a market value.

Also, just about every sale in the country would have to be checked, and a special force to evict people and to collect goods.

Then people would create companies to keep their stuff (a company can't die, so no inheritance) - the state would be forced to look into that - it would logically result in regulations that you can't just add owners or transfer ownership without payment of a fair market share. And no, your child can't buy it with your money- your child would have to earn that kind of money first.

This leads to huge wages for children to transfer family money - the state will regulate that and make fixed wages for all people.

In the end, the state would own just about everything, 99% of the people would for for it, with regulated wages, paying regulated market prices for state-produced goods and paying regulated rent for gouvermental housing.

Voila - you just created a perfect copy of Orwellian 1984...
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Kanastrous »

General Zod wrote:
Aren't IRAs generally pre-tax money?
Generally, yes. Which is why I mentioned that it's only "certain" IRAs that hold taxable money (although any $$$ you contribute beyond a certain allowable maximum per year will be taxed already, too, assuming it's the type of IRA where you can make such contributions).
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Kanastrous »

LaCroix, the state's already doing that kind of thing, though - for example, when my father died my mother was obliged to have an appraisal conducted (at her own expense, of course) to tally for the state the value of everything left behind - even though they had joint tenancy and everything of his, upon his death, went directly to her.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Aren't IRAs generally pre-tax money?
Generally, yes. Which is why I mentioned that it's only "certain" IRAs that hold taxable money (although any $$$ you contribute beyond a certain allowable maximum per year will be taxed already, too, assuming it's the type of IRA where you can make such contributions).
How many people actually have those type of IRAs though? I doubt that most people do, which would mean it's not really relevant to my point.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by LaCroix »

Kanastrous wrote:LaCroix, the state's already doing that kind of thing, though - for example, when my father died my mother was obliged to have an appraisal conducted (at her own expense, of course) to tally for the state the value of everything left behind - even though they had joint tenancy and everything of his, upon his death, went directly to her.
Of course they do, how could they determine inheritance tax if they don't? But usually, people have joint tenacy, so in most cases, it's just a legal requirement (sometimes there is something that is not joint, and this would be subjet to tax).

Still, if they have 100% tax, you can expect that they will go over everything with an even finer comb. "The state" is not above greed.
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Re: Chasing convictions

Post by Hamstray »

SancheztheWhaler wrote: What, in your opinion, is the purpose of taxation?

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of seizing all property and assets in excess of 80000€ upon a person's death?
What do you mean? The purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously.
Also I am in favor of taking away peoples hard earned money after they die rather than when they are still alive, which is basically the opposite of Akhluts standpoint.
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Re: Chasing convictions

Post by Big Phil »

Hamstray wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote: What, in your opinion, is the purpose of taxation?

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of seizing all property and assets in excess of 80000€ upon a person's death?
What do you mean? The purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously.
Also I am in favor of taking away peoples hard earned money after they die rather than when they are still alive, which is basically the opposite of Akhluts standpoint.
I thought the questions were clear. You only answered the latter, however.


So in your opinion, "the purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously." What is the moral, ethical, or cultural justification for this? Why is it necessary to "equalize birthrights obviously?"
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Re: Chasing convictions

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SancheztheWhaler wrote: So in your opinion, "the purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously." What is the moral, ethical, or cultural justification for this? Why is it necessary to "equalize birthrights obviously?"
Sorry but you just failed the turing test.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Kanastrous »

That's not an answer, you know.
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Re: Chasing convictions

Post by Simon_Jester »

Hamstray wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:So in your opinion, "the purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously." What is the moral, ethical, or cultural justification for this? Why is it necessary to "equalize birthrights obviously?"
Sorry but you just failed the turing test.
No, it's a legitimate question. You're obviously operating on a wildly different set of premises about how civilization ought to work; he has a right to know what they are.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by SCRawl »

Hamstray, I seriously hope that you're not just trolling here. If you want to become a chew-toy, you're on the right track.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Todeswind »

Hamstray wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote: What, in your opinion, is the purpose of taxation?

What, in your opinion, is the purpose of seizing all property and assets in excess of 80000€ upon a person's death?
What do you mean? The purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously.
Also I am in favor of taking away peoples hard earned money after they die rather than when they are still alive, which is basically the opposite of Akhluts standpoint.
In a discussion of an inheritance tax it's important to separate out the various types of asset inheritance because they aren't the same. If you're including property within a figure of 80000€ ($111,248) that's wholly unreasonable. You wouldn't even be able to inherit a two bedroom house where I grew up for under five times the cost of that.

And what about farms? Farmland in the midwest can easily vastly exceed the cost of that for a reasonably diversified grouping of plots. My Uncle isn't rich and will never be so as a farmer. The revenue earned by the corn he raises is just enough that working double shifts at a steel mill he can afford to support his family. If you put a cap on how much land can be inherited it would essentially be forcing his children to go into debt at the bank in order to buy relatively unprofitable farmland just in order to survive.

People like to look at trust fund babies with disdain for the fact that they haven't done anything to earn their easy ride in life but the simple fact is that 80000€ doesn't even come close to that. 80000€ is barely the cost of transferring ownership of a florist or a grocery shop from one generation to the next. The figure would have to be raised to 500,000€ before you even begin to scratch at an inheritance reasonable to the middle class.

EDIT: Even then you still need to justify having a death tax at all.
Last edited by Todeswind on 2011-03-09 07:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Kanastrous »

Even looking at the trust fund babies and noting the un-earned wealth at their disposal...so what? You can argue all you like that they 'don't deserve it' by your standards, but so what? That doesn't make someone else *more* deserving of it.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Hamstray »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:So in your opinion, "the purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously." What is the moral, ethical, or cultural justification for this? Why is it necessary to "equalize birthrights obviously?"
Kanastrous wrote:That's not an answer, you know.
Simon_Jester wrote:No, it's a legitimate question. You're obviously operating on a wildly different set of premises about how civilization ought to work; he has a right to know what they are.
SCRawl wrote:Hamstray, I seriously hope that you're not just trolling here. If you want to become a chew-toy, you're on the right track.
I'm neither willing nor have the time here to get into an profound discussion on the purpose of purpose as this string of argumentation obviously seems to be leading to. Therefore I'm not even going to get any more deeper into a discussion of ethics.

Hence I forfeit.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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Hamstray wrote: I'm neither willing nor have the time here to get into an profound discussion on the purpose of purpose as this string of argumentation obviously seems to be leading to. Therefore I'm not even going to get any more deeper into a discussion of ethics.

Hence I forfeit.
How big of you.

I by and large tend to be more reasonable than this in my posting as I value civility but that limp wristed cop out "well I'll let you have this one but I'll get you next time" post was insufferably sanctimonious. Quite frankly, I'm dubious as to your ability to defend your position in even a perfunctory capacity seeing as how you've evaded relatively simple questions with vague answers.

This board is perhaps not the most polite forum in which to debate politics but there is a distinct emphasis put on being able to support your point of view. It would be wise to bear that in mind for future posting.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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Hamstray wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:So in your opinion, "the purpose of this tax would be to equalize birthrights obviously." What is the moral, ethical, or cultural justification for this? Why is it necessary to "equalize birthrights obviously?"
Kanastrous wrote:That's not an answer, you know.
Simon_Jester wrote:No, it's a legitimate question. You're obviously operating on a wildly different set of premises about how civilization ought to work; he has a right to know what they are.
SCRawl wrote:Hamstray, I seriously hope that you're not just trolling here. If you want to become a chew-toy, you're on the right track.
I'm neither willing nor have the time here to get into an profound discussion on the purpose of purpose as this string of argumentation obviously seems to be leading to. Therefore I'm not even going to get any more deeper into a discussion of ethics.

Hence I forfeit.
That was a pretty petulant concession, I must say. It's too bad you don't have enough confidence in your (clearly deeply held) beliefs to examine them critically or attempt to defend them, but I suppose that's your right.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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Okay, he conceded, we're done. If anyone wants to add anything to the topic, that's okay, but there's no point to goading Hamstray to come back and fight.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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I'll offer my opinion on both taxes and inheritance taxes.

Taxation is (in my words), a collectivization of wealth, and a redistribution of that wealth for the common good. Just and proper taxation takes only what is necessary, in the most equitable fashion possible, and distributes that money in a manner that benefits as many people as possible. In modern terms, you take taxes and pay for transportation, infrastructure, defense, education, healthcare, etc., which all provide for the common good of society.

Unjust taxes are those which are designed to "screw over" one particular group, be it the "rich, corporations, oil companies, the poor, etc.," which are levied unfairly (i.e., 90% income taxes on the wealthy strike me as particularly unfair), or which are levied for the sole purpose of raising revenue without any intention of redistributing them. Mind you, I have no opposition to progressive taxation, but the tax rates need to be equitable and not designed to "screw over" the rich, the poor, blacks, whites, Christians, women, or whatever group those in power happen to dislike.

With regard to inheritance taxes, I do not believe that the state has any interest or right to tax estates or inheritances. This tax strikes me as a pure money grab, although at least it mostly affects estates well able to afford to taxation, given the exclusion amounts allowed under US law (currently $5 Million). However, in 2001 the exclusion rate was only $675,000 and the Max/Top Rate was 55%, meaning that someone inheriting a $2 Million dollar estate would pay $728,750 in taxes - if the inheritance was a home, or a farm, or a business (which is more likely than cash) whoever inherits that property would more than likely have to sell it, as they wouldn't be able to afford the tax liability.

Now, I understand that my personal stand against inheritance taxes doesn't matter, as it is a revenue generator that very few politicians would discard, and at the current exclusion level is unlikely to "screw over" anyone who can't otherwise afford it, but philosophically I don't like the tax. I am much more comfortable with income, sales, or VATs, tariffs on imported goods, tolls, etc., as they can be applied more equitably, but I digress.

At the end of the day, we're still left with the conclusion that the only reason hamstray supports an inheritance tax is because he wants to screw over people with money; that sort of tyranny is not conducive to a healthy society, and that sort of taxation will eventually lead to rebellion.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'll offer my opinion on both taxes and inheritance taxes.

Taxation is (in my words), a collectivization of wealth, and a redistribution of that wealth for the common good. Just and proper taxation takes only what is necessary, in the most equitable fashion possible, and distributes that money in a manner that benefits as many people as possible. In modern terms, you take taxes and pay for transportation, infrastructure, defense, education, healthcare, etc., which all provide for the common good of society.
The problem, as we've seen, is that when we struggle to minimize the amount spent on the common good, the nation suffers- particularly the not-rich (not just 'poor,' not rich) majority.

I don't think it's right to engage in deliberate, punitive taxation of the rich to strip them of assets. But the simple fact is that the revenue to pay for the programs that make modern civilization viable and self-sustaining has to come from somewhere. Allowing an economic oligarchy to hold the vast majority of the wealth and property in hopes that they'll use their investment capital for the common good simply doesn't work that well. So the argument for high taxes on the richest slice of the population is fairly strong: they're the ones who don't suffer in any concrete sense even if they do have to pay something like 60% of their income in taxes, because they're the ones who still rake in several million a year even after they pay up.

Trying to take the money from poor people who are living paycheck to paycheck is cruel and ineffective because they don't have enough money to finance the system. Trying to take the money from middle-class people is less cruel, and more effective because they have some money, but it's very bad for society in the long run because modern civilization depends on the existence of an educated middle class with disposable income to function. If you tax that middle class into poverty, or stand by while laissez-faire forces reduce it to poverty, you're only hurting yourself in the long run.

Taxing billionaires hard enough to make it impractical to become a billionaire simply isn't going to have that effect. We don't need billionaires the way we need families that can put their children through college.
Now, I understand that my personal stand against inheritance taxes doesn't matter, as it is a revenue generator that very few politicians would discard, and at the current exclusion level is unlikely to "screw over" anyone who can't otherwise afford it, but philosophically I don't like the tax. I am much more comfortable with income, sales, or VATs, tariffs on imported goods, tolls, etc., as they can be applied more equitably, but I digress.
Sales taxes and VATs have the effect of raising the poverty line- you have to pay more dollars to get your basic needs before you have any money left over for disposable income. Tolls likewise. I'd argue that this leaves a lot to be desired, unless you get very detailed about which types of purchases are taxed most extensively.
At the end of the day, we're still left with the conclusion that the only reason hamstray supports an inheritance tax is because he wants to screw over people with money; that sort of tyranny is not conducive to a healthy society, and that sort of taxation will eventually lead to rebellion.
Experience suggests that it leads to the wealthy buying out the media and government to put an end to what they see as oppressive taxation...
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Big Phil »

Simon, I have to admit, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. It's like you read and responded to a completely different post, and quote mine by mistake. If you want to discuss equitable taxation and how much we should be taxing, then discuss that, but I'm lost reading your posts.
Simon_Jester wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'll offer my opinion on both taxes and inheritance taxes.

Taxation is (in my words), a collectivization of wealth, and a redistribution of that wealth for the common good. Just and proper taxation takes only what is necessary, in the most equitable fashion possible, and distributes that money in a manner that benefits as many people as possible. In modern terms, you take taxes and pay for transportation, infrastructure, defense, education, healthcare, etc., which all provide for the common good of society.
The problem, as we've seen, is that when we struggle to minimize the amount spent on the common good, the nation suffers- particularly the not-rich (not just 'poor,' not rich) majority.

I don't think it's right to engage in deliberate, punitive taxation of the rich to strip them of assets. But the simple fact is that the revenue to pay for the programs that make modern civilization viable and self-sustaining has to come from somewhere. Allowing an economic oligarchy to hold the vast majority of the wealth and property in hopes that they'll use their investment capital for the common good simply doesn't work that well. So the argument for high taxes on the richest slice of the population is fairly strong: they're the ones who don't suffer in any concrete sense even if they do have to pay something like 60% of their income in taxes, because they're the ones who still rake in several million a year even after they pay up.

Trying to take the money from poor people who are living paycheck to paycheck is cruel and ineffective because they don't have enough money to finance the system. Trying to take the money from middle-class people is less cruel, and more effective because they have some money, but it's very bad for society in the long run because modern civilization depends on the existence of an educated middle class with disposable income to function. If you tax that middle class into poverty, or stand by while laissez-faire forces reduce it to poverty, you're only hurting yourself in the long run.

Taxing billionaires hard enough to make it impractical to become a billionaire simply isn't going to have that effect. We don't need billionaires the way we need families that can put their children through college.
Um, okay... dude, if you want to argue in favor of higher taxation on the wealthy, then do so, but what the hell does that have to do with my post?
Simon_Jester wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Now, I understand that my personal stand against inheritance taxes doesn't matter, as it is a revenue generator that very few politicians would discard, and at the current exclusion level is unlikely to "screw over" anyone who can't otherwise afford it, but philosophically I don't like the tax. I am much more comfortable with income, sales, or VATs, tariffs on imported goods, tolls, etc., as they can be applied more equitably, but I digress.
Sales taxes and VATs have the effect of raising the poverty line- you have to pay more dollars to get your basic needs before you have any money left over for disposable income. Tolls likewise. I'd argue that this leaves a lot to be desired, unless you get very detailed about which types of purchases are taxed most extensively.
Again, what the hell does your response have to do with my post?
Simon_Jester wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:At the end of the day, we're still left with the conclusion that the only reason hamstray supports an inheritance tax is because he wants to screw over people with money; that sort of tyranny is not conducive to a healthy society, and that sort of taxation will eventually lead to rebellion.
Experience suggests that it leads to the wealthy buying out the media and government to put an end to what they see as oppressive taxation...
Did you read hampster's proposal? 100% taxation on all inheritance above 80,000 Euro. What the hell are you referring to?
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Knife »

While I generally agree with Sanchez's accretion of taxes and inheritance tax, I differ in the end game of it. I view it as X wealth and taxes redistribute that wealth into places it otherwise would not go. Hence, inheritance tax would stop the very slow but very real accumulation of the majority of wealth of a country into an aristocratic elite. The government getting half of grandma and grandpa Smith's estate of a hundred grand or some such does society nothing, getting half of the Walmart's families 32 billion, not only redistributes that wealth to places it just wouldn't go, but makes sure the Walmart family and their friends don't own 90% of the wealth of the country... er too late.
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Big Phil »

Knife wrote:While I generally agree with Sanchez's accretion of taxes and inheritance tax, I differ in the end game of it. I view it as X wealth and taxes redistribute that wealth into places it otherwise would not go. Hence, inheritance tax would stop the very slow but very real accumulation of the majority of wealth of a country into an aristocratic elite. The government getting half of grandma and grandpa Smith's estate of a hundred grand or some such does society nothing, getting half of the Walmart's families 32 billion, not only redistributes that wealth to places it just wouldn't go, but makes sure the Walmart family and their friends don't own 90% of the wealth of the country... er too late.
Except it's not really wealthy individuals and families fucking up this country; it's corporations and politicians sucking corporate dick who are fucking shit up.

Put it this way, who has done more damage to the country in the past decade: Paris Hilton and Brandon Davis (both spoiled, wealthy sacks of shit who have inherited ungodly amounts of wealth), or Bank of America and Halliburton (both publicly held entities)?
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Re: Inheritance Tax and Rights Argument

Post by Simon_Jester »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Um, okay... dude, if you want to argue in favor of higher taxation on the wealthy, then do so, but what the hell does that have to do with my post?
I don't know; I thought you opposed higher taxation of the wealthy. My mistake, I guess.
Simon_Jester wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Now, I understand that my personal stand against inheritance taxes doesn't matter, as it is a revenue generator that very few politicians would discard, and at the current exclusion level is unlikely to "screw over" anyone who can't otherwise afford it, but philosophically I don't like the tax. I am much more comfortable with income, sales, or VATs, tariffs on imported goods, tolls, etc., as they can be applied more equitably, but I digress.
Sales taxes and VATs have the effect of raising the poverty line- you have to pay more dollars to get your basic needs before you have any money left over for disposable income. Tolls likewise. I'd argue that this leaves a lot to be desired, unless you get very detailed about which types of purchases are taxed most extensively.
Again, what the hell does your response have to do with my post?
You say that you are comfortable with sales and value-added taxes. I am not; I think they are a bad idea. That is what my post has to do with yours in this case: I state points of disagreement with you, and why I disagree with you on those points.

I could have said the same thing just as well without quoting you, but since I said it in the context of having just read your post, I saw no reason to do so.
Simon_Jester wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:At the end of the day, we're still left with the conclusion that the only reason hamstray supports an inheritance tax is because he wants to screw over people with money; that sort of tyranny is not conducive to a healthy society, and that sort of taxation will eventually lead to rebellion.
Experience suggests that it leads to the wealthy buying out the media and government to put an end to what they see as oppressive taxation...
Did you read hampster's proposal? 100% taxation on all inheritance above 80,000 Euro. What the hell are you referring to?
I am referring to exactly what I said: when the rich think they are being taxed too highly, they try to buy out the media and the elected government to lower their taxes. We have seen this in the US over the past thirty to forty years.

They will attempt to do the same thing in response to Hamstray's tax proposal, as with any other tax proposal they deem unreasonable. The key difference being they'll have a much larger and more rational support base, because Hamstray's tax proposal is bloody stupid and will leave most of the middle class rightly wanting to spit in his eye.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Except it's not really wealthy individuals and families fucking up this country; it's corporations and politicians sucking corporate dick who are fucking shit up.

Put it this way, who has done more damage to the country in the past decade: Paris Hilton and Brandon Davis (both spoiled, wealthy sacks of shit who have inherited ungodly amounts of wealth), or Bank of America and Halliburton (both publicly held entities)?
Option Three: the Koch brothers.

Publicly held entities are owned by people, and specific people, not the public at large. Most people don't own significant shares of Walmart; the Waltons do, even if they don't own a controlling share. If you look at who owns Walmart stock, you will find most of it belongs to people one hell of a lot richer than the average Walmart customer. The same goes for Bank of America and Halliburton stock.

This class of people who own large amounts of stock and have connections in the economic sphere where corporate decisions are made are the problem, or a big part of it. If they didn't control such a large share of America's wealth, they wouldn't be able to control such a large share of America's political power, because they're using their money to buy power.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
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