Serb anti-gay protesters attack political party offices

[ray245]

The BBC's Mark Lowen: "It has got very nasty"

Serbian police have clashed with protesters trying to disrupt a Gay Pride parade in the capital, Belgrade.

Police used tear gas against the rioters, who threw petrol bombs and stones at armed officers and tried to break through a security cordon.

A garage attached to the headquarters of the ruling Democratic Party was briefly set on fire, and at least one shot was fired at the building.

At least 50 people were injured, most reported to be police officers.
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Related stories

* Serbian gay parade is called off

A number of people were arrested.

This was the first Gay Pride parade in Serbia since a march in 2001 was broken up in violent clashes provoked by far-right extremists.
'Hooligan gangs'

While the Gay Pride parade was moving though the city, several hundred protesters began chanting at those taking part as they tried to get close to the march.

"The hunt has begun," the AFP news agency reported them as saying. "Death to homosexuals."
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At the scene
image of Mark Lowen Mark Lowen BBC News, Belgrade

As Gay Pride ended the street protests gathered pace. I stood on Terazije boulevard watching demonstrators hurl rocks at armed police, who responded with tear gas. Some officers retreated, bleeding.

Battles erupted in other parts of the city, too, and there is considerable damage to street furniture, including bus shelters and signposts.

This is not the image Serbia wants the world to see. A successful gay parade was supposed to be an indication of how far this country has come from the ultranationalism and violence of the 1990s.

The protection of minorities is crucial to Serbia's EU aspirations. Chaos on the streets will anger a government determined to move on from a troubled past.

Reports told of gangs of skinheads roaming the streets, throwing petrol bombs and setting off firecrackers as police battled to hold them back.

Thousands of police had sealed off central Belgrade to protect the event.

A gay pride march planned last year was cancelled amid fears of violence.

On Saturday, several thousand people had protested against the march. Right-wing groups say that homosexuality is contrary to Serbian religious and family values.

The Serbian Orthodox Church condemned the parade on Friday but also warned against violence against participants.

Democratic Party spokesperson Jelana Trivan said the violence had nothing to do with moral values.

"These are hooligan gangs which must be punished severely," Ms Trivan said.

"It is a shame for me to march, to stand for what I am, and to have thousands of cops protect me from hysteric [sic] nationalists," lesbian activist Milena, 36, told Reuters.

The BBC's Mark Lowen says homosexuality is still largely a taboo in Serbia, a conservative and religious nation.

This year's event was being seen as a test of how far the country has come from the ultra-nationalism and violence of the 1990s and on its path to EU membership.

Before the march, the head of the EU mission in Serbia, Vincent Degert, addressed around 1,000 gay activists and their supporters who gathered at a park in downtown Belgrade surrounded by riot police and armoured vehicles.

"We are here to celebrate the values of tolerance, freedom of expression and assembly," Mr Degert told the crowd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11507253

[ChromodynamicGirl]

Given that most of the Serbian government are terrorists and gangsters, I fail to see this as a serious problem; relatively speaking.

[Thanas]

Given that most of the Serbian government are terrorists and gangsters, I fail to see this as a serious problem; relatively speaking.

So in your opinion, a mob assaulting both a peaceful protest as well as the police protecting it, as well as representatives of foreign countries is not a serious problem? Even relatively speaking that statement does not make sense.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

So in your opinion, a mob assaulting both a peaceful protest as well as the police protecting it, as well as representatives of foreign countries is not a serious problem? Even relatively speaking that statement does not make sense.

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

[Ryan Thunder]

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

Oh, you're one of those hatfuckers.

Well, around here you have to prove things like that.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

Oh, you're one of those hatfuckers.

Well, around here you have to prove things like that.

I don't feel the need to prove that a coercive agency which extorts your money at the threat of violence and/or kidnapping is a mafia. Just because you think organized crime is 'justified' doesn't change what it is.

[Ghost Rider]

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

Oh, you're one of those hatfuckers.

Well, around here you have to prove things like that.

I don't feel the need to prove that a coercive agency which extorts your money at the threat of violence and/or kidnapping is a mafia. Just because you think organized crime is 'justified' doesn't change what it is.

Please read the rules!

It helps in such cases like this, especially given the statement only has your point of view as subjective proof.

[Ryan Thunder]

I don't feel the need to prove that a coercive agency which extorts your money at the threat of violence and/or kidnapping is a mafia.

Translation: I'm a greedy, probably spoiled bitch who doesn't understand how government works and believes that taxes are theft.

Good to know that I can just scroll on past your posts, then.

[Lagmonster]

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

Oh, you're one of those hatfuckers.

Well, around here you have to prove things like that.

I don't feel the need to prove that a coercive agency which extorts your money at the threat of violence and/or kidnapping is a mafia. Just because you think organized crime is 'justified' doesn't change what it is.

I believe he meant that you're being asked to back up your assertion that said governments are actually criminal enterprises. It's also possible that he's asking you to demonstrate why people threatening to kill other people for being different is insignificant compared to power-hungry thieves.

Also, Ryan: You're not a big dog, so tone down the barking. You may not ignore people's posts if you intend on participating in threads they've posted in.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

I don't feel the need to prove that a coercive agency which extorts your money at the threat of violence and/or kidnapping is a mafia.

Translation: I'm a greedy, probably spoiled bitch who doesn't understand how government works and believes that taxes are theft.

Good to know that I can just scroll on past your posts, then.

Or maybe I don't buy into the government's religious nonsense and feel the need to form opinions about things I am ignorant of to please some social signaling game!
See, we can all psychologize.

I believe he meant that you're being asked to back up your assertion that said governments are actually criminal enterprises.

Well, in that case, it's pretty common knowledge that the mafias (including the revolving doors of former intelligence services, secret police and rebel terrorist organizations) staffed and fielded many of the people that fill the upper political and government posts in most of the post-Soviet Republics (the Baltic countries and Poland seem to be joyfully excepted to some extent). This is the case simply because they had the power to loot all the money during 'de-socialization'.

See here for some examples: www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/Mesko/208031.pdf

[Serafina]

It should be noted that the (violent) protesters were apparently inspired and lead by priests and similar church officials. Not much of a surprise.

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

*Sigh* I take it that you are a libertarian then?
Okay, i don't want to derail the thread, but here is a though for you:

Cooperation between human beings tends to be more efficient than not cooperating. Hence, people who cooperate can out-compete those who don't.
Likewise, a society with rules that prevent behavior that is harmful to that society can out-compete a society without those.
You can NOT have anything resembling modern society without also having a government. In order to have modern technologies and individual freedoms, you need a large amount of cooperation. You can not have such cooperation without rules -and with complicated rules, you inevitably need a ruler (which is just another form of specialist).

A society without government is inherently unstable. It is inevitable that one person or group of people will out-compete the others and gain more power - whether it's military or economic power. Those people will establish themselves as some form of ruler - which can actually be beneficial to their new subjects (tough it doesn't have to be).

And that's the reason why voluntarism/libertarianism/anarchism won't work. Even if you can somehow start with modern technology, perfect equally starting conditions and no rulership at all (already a pipe-dream) - this will still happen. Even if everyone was equally capable at everything, those who choose to cooperate still out-compete the others. Those who establish such cooperation with coordination will be even better off.
But that's unrealistic to ever happen already. If you remove government in our current society - you will get nowhere. Rather than having our current, democratic governments, you will end up with governments made from either corporations or warlords after a while - and utter anarchy in between.

So, consider that point: Government is inevitable in any large society. Rather than striving towards an impossible utopia, we should concentrate on perfecting our government instead.



Oh, and if you are trying to play the morality-card "government is extorting!!": That doesn't matter. Yes, you are forced to pay your taxes. But ultimately, these taxes (should) end up improving society in general. In the end, you are just saying "i don't want to improve society" when you say that you don't want to pay taxes. That boils down to "i don't want to help others".
Oh, and in case you think you don't benefit from others people taxes: Do you ever use roads, electricity, running water, the police or anything like that? Then you DO!
Yes, i know the usual counter-argument "but god the free market is automatically better". So far, no one has been able to show that this is necessarily true. Worse yet, it would inevitably disfavor those with less money, thus creating greater inequality - and as above, ultimately those with the most money would end up forming some sort of government.

Bottom line: A world without government will be worse for everyone, since you will be unable to achieve anything that needs a lot of cooperation. It will be much worse for those less fortunate.
But ultimately, someone will acquire enough power of some sort to form a government. Hence, such a society is not possible in the long run anyway.

[Thanas]

In my opinion, all governments are mafias with good PR and those of the former Soviet Republics most literally so; this being the case, homophobia is rather trivial compared to the fact that they are ruled over by mass murderers.

Wow, where to start?

Let's start with basic geography. Serbia is not a former USSR or eastern bloc country. Second, the people in Government are not the same which ordered a (disputed) genocide. Third, the people these guys tried to insult include foreign officials, like the EU representative. You don't seem to know what you are talking about.

[Thanas]

OFFICIAL MOD NOTE:

Everybody who is not me or a mod, back off. This is my debate to have, you do not get to dogpile.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"You can NOT have anything resembling modern society without also having a government."
Not worth arguing about. If I want to waste time I can talk to Creationists.

Thanas: You're right that Serbia isn't an Eastern bloc country. I was confused about that. Nonetheless it is true that there are lots of 'ex'-gangsters in its government.

[Thanas]

"You can NOT have anything resembling modern society without also having a government."
Not worth arguing about. If I want to waste time I can talk to Creationists.

Well, I can promise you I'll take your argument seriously. So I'd be interested into why you think Government is superfluous?

Thanas: You're right that Serbia isn't an Eastern bloc country. I was confused about that. Nonetheless it is true that there are lots of 'ex'-gangsters in its government.

I am not prepared to stipulate to that without a link. After all, this government has been reformed very much to the demands of the EU and it has also had a lot of internal cleansing.

But even if there were, why is it not a big deal in your opinion that a mob is attacking police, peaceful protesters and foreign representatives?

[Gil Hamilton]

"You can NOT have anything resembling modern society without also having a government."
Not worth arguing about. If I want to waste time I can talk to Creationists.

I'm taking it from your screen name that you are at the very least interested in Quantum Chromodynamics, yeah? Do you know where the primary source of money comes from to investigate that end of physics in the United States? If said the agencies of federal government, such as the NSF and the Department of Energy, you'd be correct! Good luck getting funded in Libertarian Land.

[fgalkin]

Thanas: You're right that Serbia isn't an Eastern bloc country. I was confused about that. Nonetheless it is true that there are lots of 'ex'-gangsters in its government.

If you didn't even know where Serbia is located or it's political history, how the hell can you know whether its government is full of ex-gangsters?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lagmonster]

Thanas: You're right that Serbia isn't an Eastern bloc country. I was confused about that. Nonetheless it is true that there are lots of 'ex'-gangsters in its government.

If you didn't even know where Serbia is located or it's political history, how the hell can you know whether its government is full of ex-gangsters?

People who rail against humanity in general tend to simplify all governments as crooks by personal definition. I've found this often has a personal casue - say, a lack of respect for the authority figures in one's own life.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"If you didn't even know where Serbia is located or it's political history, how the hell can you know whether its government is full of ex-gangsters?"
I know some Serbian history, but I had entangled it with Ukrainian history. When you read about 13 horrible eastern countries run by assorted groups of assassins and thugs they tend to blend together at times.

[Darth Raptor]

Might want to pick your battles, lolbertard, especially considering that the so-called mafia goons in this instance were the only thing standing between an oppressed minority and roving packs of nazis. But hey, that would assume you weren't just a trolling First World brat-bitch, grinding the one axe you care about. Meanwhile I'll be here, voting to raise your dad's taxes (or yours, in the event that you actually have a job) and having awesome bisexual threeways because the police keep me safe from nazis.

[Mr. Coffee]

So this is what Enzige would be like with a vagina attached... Interesting.

[fgalkin]

"If you didn't even know where Serbia is located or it's political history, how the hell can you know whether its government is full of ex-gangsters?"
I know some Serbian history, but I had entangled it with Ukrainian history. When you read about 13 horrible eastern countries run by assorted groups of assassins and thugs they tend to blend together at times.

Fascinating, but not really surprising, as not being a member of the human race also negates the need to know its history or geography (after all, Serbia and Ukraine are equally worthless and therefore equal).

That aside, do tell me which "13 horrible eastern countries" run by "assassins and thugs" which are so close you're can't tell the difference you're talking about. I'm genuinely curious here.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[montypython]

Even someone like myself who knows all too well the irrational stupidity existing in government bureaucracy (and jaded about it) also realizes that the scummy aspects of the human race gets even worse without some form of structured social organization to keep things from turning into a place like Somalia. It's a matter of pushing for refinement of social methodology which can produce a better good from what is present.

[The Big I]

From what I have read on Serbian site they reckon that this event and the one in Italy were orchestrated by anti-EU groups. They think that doing insane stuff like this will stop Serbia from join the European Union.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

From what I have read on Serbian site they reckon that this event and the one in Italy were orchestrated by anti-EU groups. They think that doing insane stuff like this will stop Serbia from join the European Union.

Yep, when I first heard about it, it was immediately in terms of "ultranationalists trying to make sure Serbia is never allowed to join the EU."